The Problem of Omnipotence?

[quatona]

You may choose never to molest a child, but that's you excercising your own free will. Other people use their free will, which is to molest a child. You and the child molester are created with the same free will. The two of you just choose to use it differently.

Yes, that´s why the idea is to create only those who will use their free will in the desired way. An easy task for an omniscient creator.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Yes, that´s why the idea is to create only those who will use their free will in the desired way. An easy task for an omniscient creator.

^ This

 

[Aldebaran]

Yes, that´s why the idea is to create only those who will use their free will in the desired way. An easy task for an omniscient creator.

Contradictory.

 

[quatona]

Contradictory.

Explain the contradiction, please.

 

[Aldebaran]

Explain the contradiction, please.

"Yes, that´s why the idea is to create only those who will use their free will in the desired way. An easy task for an omniscient creator."

Basically, he's saying that God should have created people with free will who would only use their free will in the way someone else wants them to. That's like saying you can own a car of any color as long as it's black. So what color would you choose, since you have "free will"?

 

[fireof god98]

Explain the contradiction, please.

you said he made them so that they can use their free will in the ``desired`` way which is determinism.

 

[quatona]

"Yes, that´s why the idea is to create only those who will use their free will in the desired way. An easy task for an omniscient creator."

Basically, he's saying that God should have created people with free will who would only use their free will in the way someone else wants them to.

Yes. Except it was me who was saying this.

That's like saying you can own a car of any color as long as it's black. So what color would you choose, since you have "free will"?

No, that´s not like saying this. At all.

I´ll explain it to you slowly.


1.God´s perfect foreknowledge of what you will do doesn´t take away your "free will" -correct? (If you disagree, you have a serious problem reconciling God´s alleged omniscience and human "free will".)

2. God knows that his creature A will use his "free will" so not to molest children. Creating this person in full foreknowledge of this fact doesn´t interfere with this person´s free will.

3. God know that his creature B will use his "free will" to molest children. God doesn´t create this person. This person´s "free will" can´t even be interfered with because he doesn´t exist, in the first place.

 

[quatona]

you said he made them so that they can use their free will in the ``desired`` way which is determinism.

No, that´s not what I said.
I said He creates only those of whom He knows they will use their "free will" in the desired way (and abstains from creating those of whom He knows they will use their "free will" in an undesired way).

 

[ToddNotTodd]

"Yes, that´s why the idea is to create only those who will use their free will in the desired way. An easy task for an omniscient creator."

Basically, he's saying that God should have created people with free will who would only use their free will in the way someone else wants them to. That's like saying you can own a car of any color as long as it's black. So what color would you choose, since you have "free will"?

You yourself suggested I had free will. But since I will never choose to molest a child, I can both have free will and never choose that particular option. If you believe in an omnipotent god that created the universe, you already believe that this god created me in such a way to have free will and never choose to molest a child. If this god had extended this to everyone on the planet, we would all have free will, and none of us would molest children. If you're bothered by the fact that I'll only pick "the black car" as it were, then feel free to say that I don't have free will. Then try and explain your god's benevolence.

 

[Aldebaran]

From Toddnottodd:

You yourself suggested I had free will. But since I will never choose to molest a child, I can both have free will and never choose that particular option. If you believe in an omnipotent god that created the universe, you already believe that this god created me in such a way to have free will and never choose to molest a child. If this god had extended this to everyone on the planet, we would all have free will, and none of us would molest children. If you're bothered by the fact that I'll only pick "the black car" as it were, then feel free to say that I don't have free will. Then try and explain your god's benevolence.

I wish I could use the quote feature, but it's messed up right now.

You do have free will even now. You were created with it to use as you wish. You could still elect to molest a child someday. Not saying you will or that it's likely, but you never know the future. I could say that I'd never murder anyone either, but not with real certainty. I have the free will to do either one of those things if I choose to.

 

[stevevw]

It's not a contradiction at all. Never choosing a particular option isn't the same as not having the ability to choose that option. For example, I'll never choose to molest a child. It doesn't mean I'm unable to choose to molest a child, it's the case that I won't. So if you believe that I have free will, then you have to accept that we can be limited in the things we choose but retain free will. Or you deny my free will, which brings up a whole host of issues for most theists.

But the choices are there in all of us. The person who ends up doing it has decided to go down that road. If the choice wasn't there in the first place to deny then it wouldn't be the same. Love and lust maybe two aspects of the same thing. So the reason you dont choose to molest a child are because you are not wanting to hurt someone and be loving and kind. You respect life and it is precious. But all those qualities are only qualities because there is an opposite to them. That opposite has to be something that can be done just as much as the good side of them otherwise they dont have the same substance that they have. If you can only partly hate then you can only partly love. The depth of the quality is determined by the depth of its opposing sides.

But the other side to it is if you change any of these qualities that give substance a persons life and make them do what they do then you also have to change all the little things that are associated with that. A person who molests a child or a person who chooses to be kind and loving to a child doesn't just wake up one day and decide thats how they want to be. They have lived a life of choices and pathways they have gone down to get to that point. So the act of molesting a child is the end result of other decisions and actions or actions not taken in a persons life. So then you have to start looking at changing and taking away aspects of a person so that they will only think and act in certain ways so that they only do certain things. What makes a person is the depth of quality that has both sides of opposing qualities available to be chosen and lived.

Its like in the bible when Jesus said that even if a person looks at another mans wife he is committing adultery in his heart. Or even is a person harbors anger in his heart towards another he is in danger of killing. So Jesus was pointing out that the law said dont kill but He was saying that even the state of a persons heart is truly where they are at and this is what needs to be changes. The killing is the end result but its the little things that can build up that can cause it to become something greater.

 

[Kylie]

How is you believing in God logically impossible?

It's not. Lots of people believe in God, and they don't have anything I don't have. It's not like they have some physiological difference in their bodies. I just don't believe because I wasn't raised in a religious household and when I grew old enough to find my own path, I examined the evidence for and against God and found it lacking.

But there is nothing within me preventing me from believing. There is no logical contradiction in me waking up tomorrow as a believer. Never said me believing in God was such an impossibility.

I was asking, "Why doesn't God just snap his fingers as make me a believer?"

 

[Kylie]

Then He would be taking something from you for that to happen. Everything comes at a cost.

This doesn't apply if God can do the logically impossible. He can make me do something without any cost. He can do things that are logically impossible, remember?

 

[Kylie]

Neither Christians generally nor Christians on this thread agree that at all.

"All confess that God is omnipotent; but it seems difficult to explain in what His omnipotence precisely consists: for there may be doubt as to the precise meaning of the word 'all' when we say that God can do all things. If, however, we consider the matter aright, since power is said in reference to possible things, this phrase, "God can do all things," is rightly understood to mean that God can do all things that are possible; and for this reason He is said to be omnipotent. Now according to the Philosopher (Metaph. v, 17), a thing is said to be possible in two ways.

First in relation to some power, thus whatever is subject to human power is said to be possible to man.

Secondly absolutely, on account of the relation in which the very terms stand to each other. Now God cannot be said to be omnipotent through being able to do all things that are possible to created nature; for the divine power extends farther than that. If, however, we were to say that God is omnipotent because He can do all things that are possible to His power, there would be a vicious circle in explaining the nature of His power. For this would be saying nothing else but that God is omnipotent, because He can do all that He is able to do.

It remains therefore, that God is called omnipotent because He can do all things that are possible absolutely; which is the second way of saying a thing is possible." -- Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, 1:25:3

To say that God cannot do the logically impossible is not to limit His power, because the logically impossible is not a thing.

Seems to me that this is just trying to avoid the issue with wordplay. An attempt to explain God with ideas comprehensible by Humans, even though God (if he exist) is not obligated to be comprehensible to humans.

 

[Kylie]

He wants you to believe in Him by choice. You have to make that choice because nobody can make it for you. We can't, and God won't. It has to be yours. It's part of having free will.

Again, if God really can do the logically impossible, then he can force me to believe without violating my free will. Since we've established that God can do the logically impossible, claiming that "forcing me to believe" contradicts "giving me free will" means nothing, and God can do it anyway.

 

[stevevw]

This doesn't apply if God can do the logically impossible. He can make me do something without any cost. He can do things that are logically impossible, remember?

Well your the one thats saying how God acts. I dont think we can completely say that he will do this and that. I just think the way we are made is the way we are made. If you dont believe in God then you have to start asking your self why do humans have this ability to be so evil. They can knowingly act so vicious and calculated and depraved that it makes you sick. To me its more than what animals can do and its beyond an instinct thing. So if we are just evolved chemicals then there's more to it than that. I bet evolution never saw this coming. I dont think its something that evolution can produce. Its beyond chemical reactions.

I dont know why there is evil or for humans to act so bad towards each other but I do think there is more to it than biology and our mental capacity. There is a conscience and we know what is right and what is wrong. When someone defies this they go down a path that can end up with all sorts of horrible things happening. Its like a person who thinks that they can do whatever and know one can tell them what to do. They dont see where their attitude and behavior may lead to. All they are thinking about is themselves. But I am sure that there are times along the way where they knew that it was wrong and that it would end up causing some trouble. But the more they denied facing the truth the harder it gets to stop and then it begins to be self propelling and out of control.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Another problem, it is possible for god to do x and not to do x, but he cant do both x and not-x. So he cant do all that is possible. Unless he reigns over a multiverse or something?

In Islam God is over all things "qadir" which means his is the decree or power over (IIRC). This is akin to the idea of divine will in Christianity, and one accepts ones life situation as a refelection of the ultimate, however bad things may seem.

In fact in certain schools of thought, to be wealthy is really to have satisfaction with ones lot , and to complain about it is to complain about one's God. Yet also "he created life and death to see which of you is best in deeds" and this relates to "tauqa" - oft translated as God fearing or piety but essentially meaning to keep safe from harm or to safeguard from evil.

So there is no fatalist acceptance of evil or harmfulness, it is to be striven against via "God fearing". I am sure most would agree with that, ie. lets not harm ourselves, if not actual Muslim ethics as a way to it.

But anyway, thanks again.

GS.

 

[fireof god98]

Again, if God really can do the logically impossible, then he can force me to believe without violating my free will. Since we've established that God can do the logically impossible, claiming that "forcing me to believe" contradicts "giving me free will" means nothing, and God can do it anyway.

yes he does. You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit--fruit that will last-john 15:16. the glory of god is man fully alive

 

[Aldebaran]

I was asking, "Why doesn't God just snap his fingers as make me a believer?"

You have to believe as a matter of your own will. Do you want to believe in God? Some of us have barriers in our lives that make it difficult, but those can be overcome--sometimes we just need a little help.

 

[stevevw]

Another problem, it is possible for god to do x and not to do x, but he cant do both x and not-x. So he cant do all that is possible. Unless he reigns over a multiverse or something?

But aren't you putting God into a box by saying he cant do this or that. You maybe thinking along the lines of how we think within our reality and its laws and understandings. We use cause and effect to measure things by which are subject to the world in which we live. But for all we know all these influences are different and God can act outside this. If He created everything then He should be able act in many different ways outside what we could possibly even comprehend.