How many have actually read The Great Controversy or The Desire of Ages...

[BobRyan]

Which Christ Jesus? The same one Miller (the Adventist's true foundation)lied about? Adventism 2.0 is still Miller's invention. Just refined because of the indefensible major blunder of being found out.

William Miller was a baptist minister - and never became a Seventh-day Adventist.

Adventism is "Miller's" to the extent that he restored the Bible truth about the premillennial fact of the 2nd coming.

And now - almost all evangelicals do the same. Casting them all as "Millerites" is not at all accurate.

 

[ViaCrucis]

William Miller was a baptist minister - and never became a Seventh-day Adventist.

Adventism is "Miller's" to the extent that he restored the Bible truth about the premillennial fact of the 2nd coming.

And now - almost all evangelicals do the same. Casting them all as "Millerites" is not at all accurate.

"Restored Bible truth" by making false predictions?

Man if that's all it takes, then I really should get into this false prophet business. Turns out it's not as bad as the Bible says it is, it's actually "restoring Bible truth".

-CryptoLutheran

 

[BobRyan]

The complaining of that form - is like griping at the Apostles on Palm Sunday not being right about the 490 years of Dan 9 -- just because they did not know that Christ would be crucified that friday instead of being crowned as king.

Throwing out the baby with the bath water is not right no matter who does it or when.

Miller's premill doctrine was correct as most Evangelicals will admit - but his prediction that the 2300 years of Dan 8 pointed to the 2nd coming was not correct.

details matter.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[ViaCrucis]

The complaining of that form - is like griping at the Apostles on Palm Sunday not being right about the 490 years of Dan 9 -- just because they did not know that Christ would be crucified that friday instead of being crowned as king.

Throwing out the baby with the bath water is not right no matter who does it or when.

Miller's premill doctrine was correct as most Evangelicals will admit - but his prediction that the 2300 years of Dan 8 pointed to the 2nd coming was not correct.

details matter.

in Christ,

Bob

Right, all you gotta do see is retrofit failed predictions and claim Jesus walked into another room to begin some investigative judgment. You know, because that's the logical conclusion to reach. Sort of like how the Jehovah's Witnesses weren't wrong that Jesus would return in 1914, it's just that He showed up invisibly, you know, to check things out and see how it's all going.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Shiny Gospel Shoes]

Which Christ Jesus? ...

"the Lord" "of the Sabbath", which according to the Ten Commandments, being His Holy Law, is "the seventh day the Sabbath of the Lord thy God".

The very same Jesus which speaketh by the Holy Spirit, saying "sin is the transgression of the Law", per 1 John 3:4.

The very same Jesus, YHVH the Son, which came down upon Mt. Sinai in glorious power and majesty, surrounded by ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of angels, and speaking His Law audibly from Heaven.

The very same Jesus, which as His continual manner, to keep the 7th Day holy, per Luke 4:16.

The very same Jesus, who is even "the same yesterday, today and forever", per Psalms 102 and Hebrews 1 & 13, and who "changeth not", per Malachi 3:6.

The very same Jesus that rested the 7th day in Creation, per Genesis 2:1-3, Exodus 20:8-11, etc.

The very same Jesus that rested the 7th day in His death, per the Gospels.

The very same Jesus which in the times of ignorance regarding His Holy Law and Day, now "commandeth all men everywhere to repent" of transgression in/of it, per Acts 17:30.

The very same Jesus that sent His angels, and signified the messages of Revelation 14:6-12, 18:1-5, saying "worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters", citing Exodus 20:11.

 

[BobRyan]

Right, all you gotta do see is retrofit failed predictions and claim Jesus walked into another room to begin some investigative judgment.

Each Yom Kippur "the Day of Atonement" - Lev 16 is recognized by Jews as the day of Judgment -- it is not William Miller's idea. Nor is it some Bible truth that you have to be SDA to know about.

Details matter.

William Miller's error was in taking the goofy popular Christian view that the Dan 7 and 8 event being described is the 2nd coming.

Well as it turns out - he should not have listened so much to popular man-made tradition when it comes to Dan 7 and 8.

Just as on Palm Sunday the Apostles still had the goofy popular man-made tradition idea of Christ coming to be crowned as king instead of "God so loved the World that He gave His only begotten Son..."

in Christ,

Bob

 

[MoreCoffee]

Shouldn't this thread be in "Sabbath and The Law" since the book is almost exclusively about Ellen White's views on law, the sabbath, and end times?

 

[BobRyan]

It may all seem like "the Sabbath" -- until you read the two books in question.

As for the Law of God - I cannot help the fact that the majority of even pro-sunday scholarship affirms the Ten Commandments at the moral law of God under the New Covenant.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Isn't this thread about the pseudo-prophetic writings of Ellen White and by extension about the Sabbath and the Law and how much Ellen White disrespected the Catholic Church?

 

[BobRyan]

The title of the thread is not "disrespect the Catholic Church" nor is it "Sabbath".

If we take every thread on a Catholic topic and rewrite it as "this is just another thread about how the Catholic church changed the 4th commandment - bending it to apply to week-day-1 so move it to the Sabbath subject area" -- someone might see that as being "A bit too sensitive on one's self".

Perhaps over reacting.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Shiny Gospel Shoes]

Ok, let's talk about an important subject in the book, namely the Pre-Advent [2nd Coming] Judgment [aka Investigative Judgment] taking place now, per Revelation 14:6-7, Leviticus 16 & 23, Daniel 7 & 8-12, Matthew 22, along with the Books of Records therein, and the very real revoking of forgiveness, as found in Matthew 18, Ezekiel, etc.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

Ok, let's talk about an important subject in the book, namely the Pre-Advent [2nd Coming] Judgment [aka Investigative Judgment] taking place now, per Revelation 14:6-7, Leviticus 16 & 23, Daniel 7 & 8-12, Matthew 22, along with the Books of Records therein, and the very real revoking of forgiveness, as found in Matthew 18, Ezekiel, etc.

Let's not.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Ok, let's talk about an important subject in the book, namely the Pre-Advent [2nd Coming] Judgment [aka Investigative Judgment] taking place now, per Revelation 14:6-7, Leviticus 16 & 23, Daniel 7 & 8-12, Matthew 22, along with the Books of Records therein, and the very real revoking of forgiveness, as found in Matthew 18, Ezekiel, etc.

Let's not delve into heresy.

 

[BobRyan]

Ok, let's talk about an important subject in the book, namely the Pre-Advent [2nd Coming] Judgment [aka Investigative Judgment] taking place now, per Revelation 14:6-7, Leviticus 16 & 23, Daniel 7 & 8-12,

Might want to start with Daniel 7.

Let's not delve into heresy.

So then not Dan 7? What chapters in the Bible do you consider not to be heresy??

 

[Shiny Gospel Shoes]

Let's not delve into heresy.

Are you [personally] defining Heresy now? Or are you able to show that Rome deems a Pre-advent Judgment heresy, if so cite officially please, Latin, Greek, Italian or English, if necessary. If so, then show how Rome has any authority to deem what is Heresy, and cite the source for that also. Thank you.

 

[Shiny Gospel Shoes]

Let's not.

Why not? Is not there a judgment going on now in Heaven while the Everlasting Gospel is going forward to the whole world?

Shall not the righteous be judged by God, and if so when according to Scripture?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Are you [personally] defining Heresy now? Or are you able to show that Rome deems a Pre-advent Judgment heresy, if so cite officially please, Latin, Greek, Italian or English, if necessary. If so, then show how Rome has any authority to deem what is Heresy, and cite the source for that also. Thank you.

I don't need to define it, the fact that this "investigative judgement" is contrary to the teaching of the Catholic Church is sufficient to tell me that it is, from my perspective, heresy. And since it is attached to the date 1844 and some kind of invisible activity on the part of Jesus Christ in relation to the faithful and since it involves the writings of Ellen White in her alleged prophetic role I feel quite comfortable rejecting it as error.

 

[Shiny Gospel Shoes]

I don't need to define it, the fact that this "investigative judgement" is contrary to the teaching of the Catholic Church is sufficient to tell me that it is, from my perspective, heresy. And since it is attached to the date 1844 and some kind of invisible activity on the part of Jesus Christ in relation to the faithful and since it involves the writings of Ellen White in her alleged prophetic role I feel quite comfortable rejecting it as error.

Let me ask you then. According to Roman theological belief, is a Christian judged at his death, before he enters Heaven?

For those in your purgatory, why did they go there, if not Heaven in death? Was there a judgment that took place before the Second Advent of Jesus Christ in power in glory, in the Roman theological position?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Let me ask you then. According to Roman theological belief, is a Christian judged at his death, before he enters Heaven?

For those in your purgatory, why did they go there, if not Heaven in death? Was there a judgment that took place before the Second Advent of Jesus Christ in power in glory, in the Roman theological position?

Let me ask you, have you read any of the Catechism of the Catholic Church?

 

[Shiny Gospel Shoes]

Let me ask you, have you read any of the Catechism of the Catholic Church?

As you will:

" ... The Particular Judgment 1021 ... The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith ...

... 1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment" - Catechism of the Catholic Church - I believe in life everlasting

"... The Last Judgment will come when Christ returns in glory ..." - Catechism of the Catholic Church - I believe in life everlasting

"... The Roman Catechism thus explains why, besides the particular judgment of each individual, a general one should also be passed on the assembled world ..." - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: General Judgment (Last Judgment)

"... The Catholic doctrine of the particular judgment is this: that immediately after death the eternal destiny of each separated soul is decided by the just judgment of God. Although there has been no formal definition on this point, the dogma is clearly implied in the Union Decree of Eugene IV (1439), which declares that souls leaving their bodies in a state of grace, but in need of purification are cleansed in Purgatory, whereas souls that are perfectly pure are at once admitted to the beatific vision of the Godhead (ipsum Deum unum et trinum) and those who depart in actual mortal sin, or merely with original sin, are at once consigned to eternal punishment, the quality of which corresponds to their sin (paenis tamen disparibus). The doctrine is also in the profession of faith of Michael Palaeologus in 1274, in the Bull "Benedictus Deus" of Benedict XII, in 1336, and in the professions of faith of Gregory XIII and Benedict XIV.

St. Augustine witnesses clearly and emphatically to this faith of the early Church. Writing to the presbyter Peter, he criticizes the works of Vincentius Victor on the soul, pointing out that they contain nothing except what is vain or erroneous or mere commonplace, familiar to all Catholics. As an instance of the last, he cites Victor's interpretation of the parable of Lazarus and Dives. He writes:

For with respect to that which he (Victor] most correctly and very soundly holds, namely, that souls are judged when they depart from the body, before they come to that judgment which must be passed on them when reunited to the body and are tormented or glorified in that same flesh which they here inhabited — was that a matter of which you (Peter) were unaware? Who is so obstinate against the Gospel as not to perceive those things in the parable of that poor man carried after death to Abraham's bosom and of the rich man whose torments are set before us? (De anima et ejus origine, 11, n.8.)
​

In the sermons of the Fathers occur graphic descriptions of the particular judgment (cf. S. Ephraem, "Sermo de secundo Adventu"; "Sermo in eos qui in Christo obdormiunt"). ..." - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Particular Judgment

Looks like Rome indeed does believe/teach in a pre-advent [second coming] judgment before the Second Coming Judgment... oops...