The third chapter of John

[Hammster]

And she faltered afterwards. Jesus admonishes her for not believing that He can raise a man that has been dead four days. I think it is clear that you are denying the obvious because you recognise that this imperils your theology.

Unbelievers are condemned because what will take place - the lifting up of Christ - is done so with relevance to such people. They are to believe in his crucifixion. They certainly are not to believe that He was lifted up for persons other than himself.

Where does it say that she stopped believing He was Messiah?

 

[janxharris]

Where does it say that she stopped believing He was Messiah?

Where does it say that her belief in His Messiahship was bona fide? She doubted Christ. Why question it? Verse 39 is proof.

 

[janxharris]

Where does it say that she stopped believing He was Messiah?

Why do you think she said she believed in the first place? Nicodemus says it well:

John 3:2
He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”

 

[Hammster]

Where does it say that her belief in His Messiahship was bona fide? She doubt Christ. Why question it? Verse 39 is proof.

So you are using an argument from silence? M'kay.

And 39 is in no way proof. He's been dead for four days. Why wouldn't she think he might smell a bit? Did Jesus say that He would raise Lazarus all clean and shiny? I think not.

 

[Hammster]

Faltering faith shows our frailty and our sinfulness. It does not mean that we never really believed in the first place. That's the weakness of Arminianism. Not much different than the Health and Wealth crowd. Everything is dependent on your own faith. God just does what you want Him to do, if you believe enough.

 

[janxharris]

So you are using an argument from silence? M'kay.

And 39 is in no way proof. He's been dead for four days. Why wouldn't she think he might smell a bit? Did Jesus say that He would raise Lazarus all clean and shiny? I think not.

Jesus explicitly rebukes her for her unbelief. Are you denying this?

That faith is based on believing in Jesus' miracles, signs and wonders (Acts 2:22) is also found in John 10:37-38:

Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”

 

[janxharris]

Faltering faith shows our frailty and our sinfulness. It does not mean that we never really believed in the first place. That's the weakness of Arminianism. Not much different than the Health and Wealth crowd. Everything is dependent on your own faith. God just does what you want Him to do, if you believe enough.

Health and Wealth?

Of course, you know that I am a synergist - so why say, 'Everything is dependent on your own faith'?

 

[Hammster]

Jesus explicitly rebukes her for her unbelief. Are you denying this?

That faith is based on believing in Jesus' miracles, signs and wonders (Acts 2:22) is also found in John 10:37-38:

Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”

OH NO!!! A rebuke!!!

Yeah, because true believers never get rebuked. Oh wait. There's that Hebrews 12 thing.

 

[A New Dawn]

So ignore the fact that He has just said that He is the resurrection and the life and just believe 'Him'? Believe what? Strip away His miracles, signs and wonders (the resurrection being the climax of all such events) and believe what?

Just want to address this. We, in this day and age, have the Bible to teach us all that Jesus taught, what the disciples taught, etc. We have that as a foundation. Back when Jesus was actually living and teaching, all this was not available, so they didn't have the benefit of being able to pull scripture from one place and attach it to another. They actually had to listen to what Jesus said at that point in time. And Jesus did not say they had to believe that he was the Resurrection and the Life. He said to believe on Him. You are changing what he said to them. If that is all He said needs to be done, just believing on Him, then needing to believe that He is the Resurrection and the Life is not part of it. Is it true? Yes, but we don't need to believe it. We just need to believe on Him.

 

[Hammster]

Health and Wealth?

Of course, you know that I am a synergist - so why say, 'Everything is dependent on your own faith'?

Read what I said. You're salvation is dependent upon your faith.

 

[janxharris]

OH NO!!! A rebuke!!!

Yeah, because true believers never get rebuked. Oh wait. There's that Hebrews 12 thing.

And? Those that do not believe are condemned. You are yet to explain how those you say Jesus did not die or rise for are to believe through such a miraculous event. They are called to believe, but apparently they have been excluded. It is your theology that leads to such an incomprehensible, illogical dead end.

What eaxctly belief in Him means to you remains vague.

 

[Hammster]

And? Those that do not believe are condemned. You are yet to explain how those you say Jesus did not die or rise for are to believe through such a miraculous event. They are called to believe, but apparently they have been excluded. It is your theology that leads to such an incomprehensible, illogical dead end.

What eaxctly belief in Him means to you remains vague.

15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
16 Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.

67 So Jesus said to the Twelve, "Do you want to go away as well?"
68 Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life,
69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God."

 

[janxharris]

Just want to address this. We, in this day and age, have the Bible to teach us all that Jesus taught, what the disciples taught, etc. We have that as a foundation. Back when Jesus was actually living and teaching, all this was not available, so they didn't have the benefit of being able to pull scripture from one place and attach it to another. They actually had to listen to what Jesus said at that point in time. And Jesus did not say they had to believe that he was the Resurrection and the Life. He said to believe on Him. You are changing what he said to them. If that is all He said needs to be done, just believing on Him, then needing to believe that He is the Resurrection and the Life is not part of it. Is it true? Yes, but we don't need to believe it. We just need to believe on Him.

But such people were eye witnesses to what occurred...

Okay, please define what 'believe in Him' means. If it's not about believing in such miracles, signs and wonders - what is it?

It is a fact that Jesus admonishes Martha for not believing that He could raise Lazarus from the dead. He explicitly says: 'Did I not tell you that if you believe...'

And what of Acts 2:22, John 10:37-38 and the other scriptures I have cited?

 

[janxharris]

15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
16 Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.

67 So Jesus said to the Twelve, "Do you want to go away as well?"
68 Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life,
69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God."

Okay?

 

[Hammster]

Okay?

You've confused Jesus telling some to believe in Him with telling some to believe in His works. They are for two different purposes. I suppose I'll have to explain it, though.

 

[janxharris]

You've confused Jesus telling some to believe in Him with telling some to believe in His works. They are for two different purposes. I suppose I'll have to explain it, though.

14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

 

[A New Dawn]

But such people were eye witnesses to what occurred...

Okay, please define what 'believe in Him' means. If it's not about believing in such miracles, signs and wonders - what is it?

Believe on Him means (to the Jews) to believe that He was the promised Messiah. To us it means something different (well, it means the same, but because we have the benefit of history, it appears different). It means to believe that He paid the price for our sins, IOW, in the finished work on the cross.

It is a fact that Jesus admonishes Martha for not believing that He could raise Lazarus from the dead. He explicitly says: 'Did I not tell you that if you believe...'

And what of Acts 2:22, John 10:37-38 and the other scriptures I have cited?

They are not germane to the discussion in the manner you wish to use them.

 

[EmSw]

Believe on Him means (to the Jews) to believe that He was the promised Messiah. To us it means something different (well, it means the same, but because we have the benefit of history, it appears different). It means to believe that He paid the price for our sins, IOW, in the finished work on the cross.

What was the price He paid for our sins?

 

[janxharris]

Believe on Him means (to the Jews) to believe that He was the promised Messiah.

But surely this is proven by the miracles, signs and wonders?

To us it means something different (well, it means the same, but because we have the benefit of history, it appears different). It means to believe that He paid the price for our sins, IOW, in the finished work on the cross.

So if Jesus did not pay the price for some folk, why are they condemned? As you rightly say, they must believe that Jesus was lifted up and that He rose again on the third day. Are they to believe what did not take place?

They are to believe in the Calvinist's interpretation of John 10:11 - that Christ did not die for all?

"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep."

What's to believe in? Believe in a Messiah that may not have died for you?

They are not germane to the discussion in the manner you wish to use them.

Please explain why.

 

[A New Dawn]

What was the price He paid for our sins?

His life. The wages of sin is death, remember?