The Problem of Omnipotence?

[Tree of Life]

Can you give me an example of something that is logical in one language and yet illogical in another language?

The statement, "My cat is black, therefore penguins can swim" is illogical. While both premises are true (my cat is black and penguins can swim), it is illogical because my cat being black does not cause penguins to swim (that's what the "therefore" means). So, this statement is illogical. I can speak German (albeit rather badly, I've been speaking English primarily since I was about 5), and the statement in German makes as much sense as it does in English - that is, none.

Oh, and the idea of cause and effect is quite logical as well. And cause and effect deals quite heavily in reality. So don't tell me that logic has nothing to do with reality.

So logic is not about language, it is about concepts, and concepts exist independent of language.

This is fair. Logic has more to do with concepts and formulating concepts into language. What I mean to say is that logic is all about our thinking and reasoning. There's no data out in the world that can be logical or illogical. The only thing that can be logical or illogical is our reasoning, conceptualizing, and formulating.

But for this reason a syllogism like 1) All dragons are green. 2)Smaug is a dragon. 3) Therefore Smaug is green. is perfectly logical. Though it's not sound or corresponding to reality, there's nothing logically incoherent about it.

There's also nothing logically incoherent about chanting words and floating.

Now, will you please address my question?

Do you agree that "logically coherent" can be defined as things which are logically and rationally explainable? Yes or no.

No. Logically coherent means that it's internally conceptually consistent.

 

[Tree of Life]

However, all this said, I would like to see Christianity giving a clarifying definition along with the big words it tends to throw out. It would be easier to address its assertions congenially.

Definition is certainly important. What are some Christian words or concepts that you are seeking definition for?

 

[Kylie]

No. Logically coherent means that it's internally conceptually consistent.

Then it seems to me that your OP says nothing, because we can arbitrarily declare that God has any powers we want. So if God wanted to create a rock so heavy that he couldn't lift it, what's stopping him from creating such a rock and then being able to lift it while being unable to lift it? Why should we say that God can't do it just because we can't conceive of how it could work? After all, if we claim that he created the universe because there's no rational explanation for it and we need a supernatural explanation, why can't we do the same thing with the rock?

 

[Tree of Life]

Then it seems to me that your OP says nothing, because we can arbitrarily declare that God has any powers we want. So if God wanted to create a rock so heavy that he couldn't lift it, what's stopping him from creating such a rock and then being able to lift it while being unable to lift it? Why should we say that God can't do it just because we can't conceive of how it could work? After all, if we claim that he created the universe because there's no rational explanation for it and we need a supernatural explanation, why can't we do the same thing with the rock?

The purpose of the OP is to demonstrate that there is no logical problem with the concept of omnipotence.

 

[CabVet]

The purpose of the OP is to demonstrate that there is no logical problem with the concept of omnipotence.

Is an omnipotent God able to create beings that are incapable of committing sin? If so, why didn't he?

P.S.: Don't get me started with "free will", this has nothing to do with it.

 

[Kylie]

The purpose of the OP is to demonstrate that there is no logical problem with the concept of omnipotence.

Well, I don't think that the OP made the point very well...

 

[Tree of Life]

Well, I don't think that the OP made the point very well...

Are you not persuaded?

 

[Tree of Life]

Is an omnipotent God able to create beings that are incapable of committing sin?

Of course. God has created many of these beings. Rocks, for instance.

 

[keith99]

I agree with this. This is pretty much what the Bible says about what God wants from humanity. Just curious, as an unbeliever in the Bible how did you come to this conclusion?

I have a brain and as an unbeliever I can still try to sort the claims of Scripture so they make sense. So far this is the only way to out things together that makes sense without deciding Scripture at some point is intentionally deceptive.

Oh and I think C.S. Lewis pretty much said the same thing, probably better than I have.

If Lewis can learn form 'The Great Knock' I can learn from Lewis.

 

[quatona]

Of course. God has created many of these beings. Rocks, for instance.

Is an omnipotent being able to create conscious and self-aware beings that are incapable of committing sin?

 

[quatona]

Definition is certainly important. What are some Christian words or concepts that you are seeking definition for?

"Omnipotence", for example (as well as the other Omnis), often also worded as "With God everything is possible".
The problem I have: This claim of omnipotence at first comes across as something very extraordinary, but when you define it it merely appears to be watered down to "With God everything is possible that is possible without a God, anyway".

 

[keith99]

Can you give me an example of something that is logical in one language and yet illogical in another language?

The statement, "My cat is black, therefore penguins can swim" is illogical. While both premises are true (my cat is black and penguins can swim), it is illogical because my cat being black does not cause penguins to swim (that's what the "therefore" means). So, this statement is illogical. I can speak German (albeit rather badly, I've been speaking English primarily since I was about 5), and the statement in German makes as much sense as it does in English - that is, none.

Oh, and the idea of cause and effect is quite logical as well. And cause and effect deals quite heavily in reality. So don't tell me that logic has nothing to do with reality.

So logic is not about language, it is about concepts, and concepts exist independent of language.

Now, will you please address my question?

Do you agree that "logically coherent" can be defined as things which are logically and rationally explainable? Yes or no.

Off the top of my head I can't, but they do exist. I can give you one where in German a statement is correct but in English it is not. I only know the translation to English.

Karl Fredrick Bonheoffer was the man who split the hydrogen atom.

In English to anyone who understands basic Physics this is gibberish. In German it was perfectly correct. For the word that could properly be translated as split could also be translated as separated or perhaps subdivided. Oh and atom was added.

It took me years before I came upon the things to make this gibberish make sense. Bonheoffer isolated Deuterium and tritium. But it turns out making sense was not right. What he did was isolate different forms of hydrogen molecules based on quantum spin characteristics.

Different languages pares out differently and there will be some things that are logical in one and not in another.

 

[Tree of Life]

Is an omnipotent being able to create conscious and self-aware beings that are incapable of committing sin?

Animals.

 

[Tree of Life]

"Omnipotence", for example (as well as the other Omnis), often also worded as "With God everything is possible".
The problem I have: This claim of omnipotence at first comes across as something very extraordinary, but when you define it it merely appears to be watered down to "With God everything is possible that is possible without a God, anyway".

Well if you're confused about this one it's probably not because of a lack of definitions. Omnipotence, on the face, is clear enough. Basically the assertion is that there is nothing impossible for God. Omnipotence is not a biblical word, but a theological formulation of what we believe the scriptures are teaching. We get this doctrine from verses like:

Genesis 18:14 - "Is anything too hard for the Lord?"
The context here is that God has promised that he will give Abraham a son by Sarah. The problem is that she is past the age of childbearing. It's an unbelievable promise based on their circumstances and historical precedent. God asks: "Is anything too hard for me?" Apparently God is not limited by this situation. Even though Sarah is barren God is able to open her womb and give them a son in old age.

We see the same sentiment in Luke 1:37 - "...for nothing will be impossible with God." The context here is that barren Elizabeth has been promised a son. God will open the barren womb. He will bring life to that which is dead. He can do this because "nothing will be impossible" with him.

Jesus expresses something similar in Matthew 19:26 - "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

The context is about how difficult it is to enter the kingdom of God. So difficult it's in fact impossible for selfish human beings! But all things are possible for God. He is able to change opinions and perspectives and cause people to enter. We are often unable to change our own opinions and perspectives but this task is not difficult for God.

So God is not limited like we are. His power is over all. His power is greater than everything else. Nothing is stronger than God.

What about this is conceptually perplexing?

 

[Tree of Life]

I do believe that God is omnipotent and his power is broader than what I'm about to say. But in terms of God's power I'm satisfied to simply say:

"God is able to do what he says that he will do."

and/or

"God is able to do what he wants to do."

 

[Smidlee]

omnipotent- If God is all powerful, is he able to create a rock so big that even he can't lift it?
The answer is both Yes and No. Jesus could have turn that stone into beard and at the same time he couldn't. Jesus replied to the Pharisees "Before Abraham was I Am."
You really didn't think you could fit God in your little brain He created did you?

 

[Kylie]

Off the top of my head I can't, but they do exist. I can give you one where in German a statement is correct but in English it is not. I only know the translation to English.

Then it shouldn't be too hard for you to find the phrase in German, should it?

Karl Fredrick Bonheoffer was the man who split the hydrogen atom.

In English to anyone who understands basic Physics this is gibberish. In German it was perfectly correct. For the word that could properly be translated as split could also be translated as separated or perhaps subdivided. Oh and atom was added.

It took me years before I came upon the things to make this gibberish make sense. Bonheoffer isolated Deuterium and tritium. But it turns out making sense was not right. What he did was isolate different forms of hydrogen molecules based on quantum spin characteristics.

Different languages pares out differently and there will be some things that are logical in one and not in another.

Yeah, I think this only works if you interpret it completely literally.

If I say that I set off the burglar alarm, it's wrong. I didn't set it off. I activated a sensor, and the sensor activated the alarm. You're just being picky here.

 

[Neogaia777]

Why is omnipotence illogical again?

Could you give a better example?

God Bless!

 

[Kylie]

Why is omnipotence illogical again?

Could you give a better example?

God Bless!

It comes from saying that if God can do anything, then he can be two contradictory things at the same time.

For example, I couldn't be both married and also single. I couldn't be a mother if I had never been pregnant.

And yet, if I was omnipotent, then any sentence that began "I can't..." could never apply to me. If I am omnipotent, then I must be able to do ALL things. And yet, there are many things, like my above examples, that contradict each other. If I was omnipotent, then I should be able to do all things, I should be able to be both single AND married. And that's not logically possible.

Here's another way of looking at it.

Premise: All grown women in my household are married.
Premise: I am not married.

Now, assuming that both premises are true, it is not possible to reach the conclusion that I am a woman, because if I was a woman, I must be married (as shown by premise 1), which contradicts premise 1.

In fact the only possible conclusion that can be reached from the above premises is that I am not a woman. Since I am a woman, then one of the premises must be flawed (in this case, it is premise 2, as I am married).

 

[stevevw]

The first thing I can see wrong here is that we are trying to put God into a box of what he can and cant do according to the way we think things through. This is according to the logic and laws we have here in this world. Yet God exists in other dimensions which may have different equations and powers involved. What about a world outside ours like in space somewhere where gravity isn't at work. Already the situation has changed and even a man can move a rock easier than if it were on earth. Then we have the quantum world where they say that the material world maybe just a manifestation of this world and isnt really the reality of what is gong on.

So this shows the different situations where there are different worlds that have different laws and situations that change the way we see things. But God will transcend all these worlds anyway. But it shows that if He is the creator of these laws and different influences that how much more dont we know that He can do. I mean how did the Egyptians build the pyramids. It maybe that we discover a way of utilizing gravity or some other power like the magnetic force and be able to move things that we could never do before. The bible says that if we have faith even as big as a mustard seed we can tell a mountain to jump into the sea.

Now this maybe a figure of speech but I believe it was showing how powerful faith can be. Maybe faith can tap into the physical world and move it for all we know. Maybe this is what God is all about. The quantum world physics can do some pretty crazy things and maybe there is a way that God can control this. Many we can have the ability to have some influence over this through faith. So I wouldn't be limiting God to anything because He is the maker of all this and probably has the key to the ultimate forces of everything including creativity and power.