If Protestantism is true, why they are not united? (2)

[MoreCoffee]

Okay, have we reached consensus? Is Protestantism (whatever one conceives it to be) not true because it is disunited?

 

[Targaryen]

Reform was needed, the myriad Protestant separations...not so much

*waits for the disagreement to the point*

 

[sculleywr]

Reform was needed, the myriad Protestant separations...not so much *waits for the disagreement to the point*

why reform when you can return? Reform assumes it was lost, that the gates of hell prevailed over the Church.

 

[Rick Otto]

why reform when you can return? Reform assumes it was lost, that the gates of hell prevailed over the Church.

Why return to what the gates of hell prevailed over when all that's needed is reform?

 

[sculleywr]

Why return to what the gates of hell prevailed over when all that's needed is reform?

why be Christian if the prophecy of Christ failed?

 

[Rick Otto]

why be Christian if the prophecy of Christ failed?

Why consider an institution to be what it it says it is, if it isn't?

 

[Albion]

why reform when you can return? Reform assumes it was lost,

It's quite the opposite. Reform presumes that "it" can be saved if corrective actions are taken.

that the gates of hell prevailed over the Church.

And it certainly doesn't mean that.

If the gates of hell had prevailed, there would be nothing to reform.

 

[sculleywr]

It's quite the opposite. Reform presumes that "it" can be saved if corrective actions are taken. And it certainly doesn't mean that. If the gates of hell had prevailed, there would be nothing to reform.

if heresy took over, then hell prevailed.

 

[Rick Otto]

if heresy took over, then hell prevailed.

Heresy took over the celebrated fake.
NT Christianity happens "outside the camp" (establishment facades).

 

[Standing Up]

Okay, have we reached consensus? Is Protestantism (whatever one conceives it to be) not true because it is disunited?

Only in the sense that RC, EO, and OO would also answer to the positive. Remember, there is only one church established.

 

[Albion]

Okay, have we reached consensus? Is Protestantism (whatever one conceives it to be) not true because it is disunited?

No. That doesn't logically follow any more than saying that Christianity itself is not true "because it is disunited."

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by LiberalAnglicanCatholic

Reform was needed, the myriad Protestant separations...not so much *waits for the disagreement to the point*
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why reform when you can return? Reform assumes it was lost, that the gates of hell prevailed over the Church.

Why return to what the gates of hell prevailed over when all that's needed is reform?

As long as the Pope has the "keys", the RCC is safe

Mat 16:
18 'And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly,
and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;
19 "I shall be giving to thee the Keys of the kingdom of the heavens.
.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7465159
Peter and the Keys, Catholicism and the Pope




.

 

[sculleywr]

Heresy took over the celebrated fake. NT Christianity happens "outside the camp" (establishment facades).

yeah, and is never seen or heard from, and left no mark on history. It was such a colossal failure at the great commission that nobody ever heard of them. And now that "outside the camp" has taken over the camp in the US. I realize that it is easier to believe that a giant conspiracy hid the existence of the true church. But it is academically bankrupt.

 

[rick357]

As long as the Pope has the "keys", the RCC is safe

Mat 16:
18 'And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly,
and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;
19 "I shall be giving to thee the Keys of the kingdom of the heavens.
.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7465159
Peter and the Keys, Catholicism and the Pope

.

Peter was not a pope and the pope is not an apostle...Peter pactised Judaism untill he died as did the other apostles in the sect of the way

 

[rick357]

Peter was not a pope and the pope is not an apostle...Peter pactised Judaism untill he died as did the other apostles in the sect of the way

Might want to make sure he is not locking you inside

 

[MoreCoffee]

No. That doesn't logically follow any more than saying that Christianity itself is not true "because it is disunited."

Do you think that all of the protestant denominations are true in the sense in which that word is used in the topic?

 

[Tallguy88]

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[JCFantasy23]

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[sculleywr]

No. That doesn't logically follow any more than saying that Christianity itself is not true "because it is disunited."

1. Christ is not divided, therefore, His TRUE Body is not divided. The Church is His Body, and therefore has one FAITH, one HOPE, one Truth, upon which it is built.

2. Protestantism is divided. Whatever method you use to count the divisions, there are thousands of divisions among Protestantism.

Therefore, Protestantism CANNOT be His Body, for His Body is not divided.

Albion, you wave aside all this division as if it weren't important. But that like waving aside a cancer diagnosis as if it weren't important. This division is tearing the Christian world apart. Whether you choose to see it or not, the division in the Western church has led to fights, arguments, debates, destroyed friendships, and broken homes.

I, myself, stand both as witness and evidence of this. With my conversion to Orthodoxy, I have alienated much of my family. I have lost several friendships to my conversion, as well. And I did this knowingly. Not because I'm a horrible person. I would have done that no matter WHAT denomination I switched to. I knew I needed to leave the Baptist traditions. They had left me completely and utterly spiritually dead. I had no joy in the songs I was raised on. No fire to be found in AWANA meetings, despite my love of children. Even interpreting the services, where I was most truly in my element, I found nothing.

I had the choice between losing my faith or family and friends. If the Christian world were truly Christian, my switching to another church would have no effect on people like that.

But there were greater benefits than what I had lost. And my family, if not some of my old friends, came back to me, because that is the kind of family I have.

Coming full circle to the point is that this relativistic malarkey has grown like a cancer in our churches. It doesn't matter any more what is true. Now they ask, what is the truth FOR YOU?

I'm going to be very blunt. It matters less than a mote of dust trying to be a dam to stop a tidal wave. The truth as you personally see it is false. The truth as I personally see it is false. Every single person on this board has their own personal truth. And every single personal truth is false. Every single one of us must shed the falsehoods we cling to, no matter what, and accept the ONE Truth. This is the ONLY Truth that is Truth. And that is ALL that matters.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Is Protestantism (whatever one conceives it to be) not true because it is disunited?

If I may say...


I recently came across something which somewhat broached the subject delicately with how much control the Lord may or may not have when it comes to the ways that the Church has developed - including the ways that the Protestant world has become more and more divided....

Others who shared it with me noted how having an open view is the only one that makes sense out of the observable world, while being at least largely consistent with scripture when it comes to how many things the Lord did leave either to chance or human action. Of course, the article is from someone who is an ex-Christian - but it was noteworthy nonetheless when it seemed to suggest that God the Father did not really answer the prayer of Jesus for unity (even though that is not grounds for suggesting that God never answers prayer - Jesus asked for his 'cup of suffering' to pass before him (Luke 22:42-44 and Matthew 26:39), but still went to the cross as the Father willed ...learning obediance from what he suffered as Hebrews 5:7-10 notes- there was no other way).

But on what was shared there (for a brief excerpt) in God Doesn't Even Answer Prayers to Himself from Himself (in addition to the Church History Tree Chart she used to make her point):

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As a believer in Christ, I knew how instrumental Christian discord is in sowing doubts in the minds of outside observers. For if Christians cannot bring themselves to agree on what mandates of God are, is it not at least an indication that they are not guided by the same omnipotent deity but rather by their own interior preferences and prejudices? Christians are often defensive about this charge, quickly discounting their deep differences, and insisting that they are in agreement about the key issue—Jesus Christ. However, it is not just pesky atheists who think that Christian division poses a threat to the faithful’s credibility. According to the Gospel of John, Jesus knew that the faithful’s disunity raises doubts:

“I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given them, so that they may be one, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become completely one, so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. Father, I desire that those also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory, which you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world (John 17:20-24).

They are two noteworthy issues in this prayer of Jesus. First that he realizes that the lack of unity signals to the world that there are reasons to not believe and secondly that a prayer by none other than Jesus remains unfulfilled 20 centuries after they were allegedly spoken. ....

......... Jesus, who presumably excels in faith and virtue, made an important and reasonable request to his father, who allegedly gives good gifts and answers the righteous and yet, here we are 2000 years after the fact and Christians are divided into ever more numerous factions with views spanning the political and theological spectrum. You cannot know by the fact that someone uses the label “Christian,” whether she believes in a literal Hell where there is physical torment, a spiritual Hell where one is separated from God and lives in “darkness,” or no Hell at all. All are however united by an eagerness to point out that not everyone who claims to be a Christian is an authentic one and that it is the other guy who has got it wrong. ... I understand a delay in the fulfilment of God’s action does not mean God has not answered. How do I know that God is not going to bring about Christian unity in his time? God’s timing—that other dark hole. Here’s the problem, Christians. God’s delay poses an eternal threat to millions, if not billions of well-meaning souls who would have otherwise accepted Jesus and gone to Heaven. If even just one person does not believe and goes to Hell all because God has delayed in clarifying the myriad theological disagreements among Christians then God’s delay is responsible for the perishing of that soul. And is not one soul worth God getting off his throne and making himself clear?

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Seeing what she had to say, I thought she gave an Awesome graphic - and she had many good points.

Of course, some of her conclusions were things I had pause on. For starters, the graphic, while very cool, suggested a greater degree of disunity among Christians than actually exists. IMHO, rather than focusing on all of the organizational and sometimes geographical subdivisions I think a better way to assess Christian unity would be in terms of something like C.S. Lewis' "mere" Christianity.

For other issues I had with the author of the article, the individual rested it all on 'oneness' meaning 'unity of belief' rather than knowing that, despite our different perspectives, we are unified, and therefore being a visible demonstration of the Father's invisible unity with the Son despite their different perspectives. Being Orthodox, I of course believe that fullness is found within the Orthodox Church - even though others can have differing expressions outside of that (and even Orthodoxy has had similar battles in regards to splits), as said before in your thread Do you think Christians ought to try to unite into one Church on Earth? elsewhere:

Man has erected barriers between themselves and God, such as liturgy, priests etc. What about the group of Christians who have noting but a few pages of the bible and gather together to read, pray and sing? Surely nothing could be closer to the earliest days of our church? So shouldn't worship and praise be that simple, a fellowship of believers coming together to share God's word and worship and pray together?

In any case, in places where there are no liturgical songs available or even priests, that doesn't mean the Lord could not be present - it has happened throughout the Scriptures where the Lord has worked through means that seemed to be little. However, that's not to say that it was always meant to be as such - you can work in it. This is something my priest once said to me on the matter:

Orthodoxy is pre-denominational; therefore all other Christian confessions are incomplete and therefore cannot offer the full healing or therapeutic life that comes from being connected to the Church through the sacraments or channels of grace that Jesus provided. This is not being uncharitable. It is simply stating reality.

This is not a criticism or deriding other confessions anymore than stating a primitive field medical tent in the backcountry of Africa is less effective than a state of the art modern hospital here in the USA. Both serve a similar purpose but one is more effective in surgery, has better trained doctors and nurses, better equipment and methods. In short, Orthodoxy is this state of the art healing facility. Orthodoxy has a proven track record of producing healed people called saints.​

Many times Eastern Christians have been a minority/persecuted in Eastern religions, despite where they've also found ways to thrive in their practices AND represent Christ/His Work in the Church...

As it concerns dialogue, of course it can occur. St. Isaac of Syria lived in an era when there was still (though limited) intercommunion between the Churches. And we still value some of the teachings of people like Evagrius of Pontus who is not a Saint, and fell into error (Origen as well, actually) - as what is valuable is valuable. For good review, one can consider here in Sectarianism in Orthodoxy and Orthodoxy in Sectarianism - Eclectic Orthodoxy or the following:

• Catholicism vs Orthodoxy | Eclectic Orthodoxy

• Preaching Gospel as Gospel, or Why the Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant Churches Need the Reformation | Eclectic Orthodoxy

Professor Richard Schneider on Orthodox Interchurch Dialogue (Critical Look at Challenges) - YouTube
Cool..

To say "The Protestant Reformation is still going" is something that should be considered when realizing the context/background and make-up of what the Protestant Reformation was even about is something that really ended a long time ago - more shared on that in Major theological differences of Reformation & Evangelicalism? (as shared here or here in Protestant Reformation vs Primitive Restoration..alongside Orthodoxy and Anglicanism Ecumenical Dialogue and in Church/Seminaries & Exclusion of Minority: Why are Blacks/3rd World insights ignored?)

Orthodox did not have a Protestant Reformation that is said to have never ended (as much of the Reformation was explicitly anti-Papist and many of the doctrines, e.g. purgatory and indulgences, were not adopted in the East - even as there was some correspondence between German Reformers and the Patriarch that exists, as with much of that dialogue being lost to history and not remembered with how the East wasn't truly having the same battles as other Protestants were) - although it can be easily be said that there were reforms that did take place and changes that have occurred in differing ways when it comes to liturgy or other developments - and of course, in the 700s and 800s there was a Protestant-like movement in Byzantium called Iconoclasm that was eventually squelched (despite all the damage that occurred - and unfortunately, the Protestant Reformation later adopted Iconoclasm again ).

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That said, even though I don't agree with the individual in being an atheist now, I can see where she's coming from when it comes to noting the impact of what has happened in the Protestant camp. My take on what the individual noted was that Jesus seems to be saying that our mission on earth will be stronger for our unity - but what Jesus doesn't say is that the whole faith will be undermined by disunity .....and in many ways, seeing the ways things develop over time, it does make you wonder if God is actually behind (an "Invisible Hand" of sorts) the many splits and new developments (controlled chaos) or if perhaps he is simply allowing things to play out and will intervene at a certain point. We have often screwed it up a lot, IMHO...and to bring the point home....

As it is, for theistic determinism and even Molinism it's hard to see why God couldn't have and wouldn't have brought about a much higher degree of Christian unity than there is...and yet if greater Christian unity is something that God cannot just "bring about" without significantly overriding creaturely freedom then we have at least a partial explanation of why God doesn't just "answer" Jesus' prayer in that way. Something else to consider is that Jesus prayed the prayer in the hearing of his disciples, a fact which suggests that he was appealing to *them* as much as to the Father to foster a spirit of unity. Indeed, That Christians have often failed in that regard does not, by itself, suggest that either God or Christianity have failed

And to see how often it's the case that a new group arises assuming they are like the first to discover a country (even though others were already present and came before them - even though they did things in different expression), there's a continual waltz..

Sadly with the groups that arrived later after other Christian groups, there was a matter of thinking they were the "first" to save it. The development of things reminds me of how often misunderstandings can occur - and why there's such a huge need for dialogue on the matter. For the sake of humor:

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In all of this, thankfully, God's in control...

And thus, when it comes to the Protestant Reformation or Protestantism, I do not assume that it is false automatically simply because of the myriad of differences - just as I do not assume that Orthodoxy is false simply because of the many times within the history of the Church where you had groups battling with one another. ....​