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Stop Believing in Evolution

Azureknight 773

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For me, a multi-billion years old, probably 3 or 4.5 b years old. This is to fit well to the times in between the "days" of Creation by God. For up in Heaven, a day might be several eons, while a year here could just be a few milliseconds up there. You know, time up there could be moving differently as eternity is present there. So differently that your day here on Earth is like a drop of water compared to a vast ocean of water up there. So a God day in Genesis could be millions of years Earth time.

There is a verse here stating (paraphrased) "For a thousand years is like a yesterday". This is not just literal, but also metaphorical as one man could live some seventy years or so but God can make those seventy years a puny insect for His age is unknowable. Even before Creation, He happens to be already present. So this verse means one thousand might be millions of years considering His actual age remains and will always be unknowable.

1000 Years Earth Time = can be translated as multiple eons.
Is a yesterday = Earth time and can be translated as the time of now.

.: God lives in absolute eternity where time has no meaning but to be used for His tasks.

Now inventors and numerous scientists keep on inventing new devices that helps them date things. Same said things happen to be sensitive in age determination. So yeah. Just my two or five cents
 
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Azureknight 773

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Just curious, how do you know for sure the snake in the story was actually satan? I know some people believe that because the devil is referenced as a serpant in other parts of the Bible, however just taking Genesis alone, the snake seems to be implied to be a creature of the garden, and within Genesis, it and all of its kind is cursed to now slither on the ground (why would God punish all of the snake species over the act of a fake snake?).

Perhaps the snake is a metaphore for Satan. Or perhaps the Christian view of Satan was not even being thought about when the story was written by its author(s).

Serpent (Bible) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It seems "serpents/snakes" were used a long time ago as symbolism for evil even before Genesis story was written.

Of course the serpent in the Genesis story not actually being Satan does not mean that Satan was not involved somehow in the more historically accurate version of the "Fall of Man", however long ago, when Man first began to sin.

Allegorical. Sometimes we will view the Holy Scriptures not literally but by in-depth critical analysis. It could be that Satan must be brought even lower as the celestial hierarchy says that demons (including the Devil himself) are placed lower than humans.
 
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Chany

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Okay. The reason I ask is because the sites you keep linking are Young Earth Creationists. They believe in a literal interpretation of Genesis and anyone who doesn't follow such an interpretation is not really a Christian.

In short, to these people, the earth is 6,000 to 10,000 years old. Everything in Genesis happened as it appeared in the Bible literally; no allegory allowed. The earth flooded over entirely and Noah's Ark happened exactly as reported in the Bible; no ifs, ands, or buts.

Some of them are also completely closed off to evidence. For example, in the recent Ken Ham/ Bill Nye debate, Ham stated clearly that nothing would change his mind. No amount of evidence against him will ever change his mind.

Like I said before, this doesn't, in and of itself, disprove creationism. A broken clock is right twice a day, after all. However, no one watches a broken clock for the correct time and hopes that it's one of those two times of the day.
 
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MoonlessNight

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Some of them are also completely closed off to evidence. For example, in the recent Ken Ham/ Bill Nye debate, Ham stated clearly that nothing would change his mind. No amount of evidence against him will ever change his mind.

I would like to preface this by noting that, insofar as I understand it, I accept the theory of evolution as a likely model for the development of species. So do not take this as an argument that evolution is an incorrect theory.

With that out of the way, I'd like to note that evolution is a theory which is almost impossible to falsify. It is a description of a process which cannot be directly observed, and which can be used to explain the development of just about any conceivable life form.

The example of falsifying evidence which gets passed around is the hypothetical discovery of a rabbit fossil dating from the Cretaceous period. If such a thing were discovered of course the first instinct (and rightly so) of the scientific community would be that it was a hoax, but suppose for the sake of argument that it was somehow proven that it was 100% genuine. I'm not sure that this evidence would disprove evolution. There are plenty of examples of convergent evolution, so even if we could be sure that modern rabbits did not descend from these rabbits, it could be possible that these were actually pseudorabbits, which evolved in a similar way from different ancestors, and which proceeded to die off. The fact that we did not have fossils of immediate ancestors of the rabbits would not disprove evolution, because the fossil record is not and never could be comprehensive.

Perhaps a better hypothetical piece of evidence against evolution would be if an animal gave birth to an animal of a completely different species. But I'm not sure that even this would work. Even though such an event would be incredibly remarkable, it would be something very rare and as such not likely to affect the overall course of evolution. We can imagine that if a new species were to be spontaneously created in this manner, there would be no breeding population for the new animal, so it would die and that would be the end of it. I suppose that such an event would call into question our understanding of genetics, at least of that species, but I am not sure that the current genetic theory is essential for evolution to work. All we need is some model which allows for inheritance and which allows for rare traits to be passed on (and not diluted in an otherwise pure bloodline).

What if we go really absurd and imagine that we find a plate from before humans existed which said in English "Evolution is false--God." Certainly in this situation we would know that something really strange was going on, but we can imagine really strange situations which account for this and don't disprove evolution. For example, perhaps it was a prank by a time traveler. Even I, who believe in God, would be more likely to accept that explanation than the plaque being God's communication to us about evolution (because it is inconsistent with how God tends to reveal things).

My point is this: if scientists are honest with themselves, I think that many of them would agree that there is no evidence, or at least no evidence short of the absolutely absurd, which would change their minds about the truth of evolution. This does not mean that evolution is wrong. There is no evidence that I can imagine which would tell me that the Pythagorean theorem is false on a plane. But it is dangerous to dismiss others because they don't allow falsification. In fact very little of worth can be falsified in the Popperian sense, and even in science falsification plays less of a role than we often suppose.

There are other good reasons to attack creationists, both scientific and philosophical. It is best to stick to those.
 
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twinc

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I would like to preface this by noting that, insofar as I understand it, I accept the theory of evolution as a likely model for the development of species. So do not take this as an argument that evolution is an incorrect theory.

With that out of the way, I'd like to note that evolution is a theory which is almost impossible to falsify. It is a description of a process which cannot be directly observed, and which can be used to explain the development of just about any conceivable life form.

The example of falsifying evidence which gets passed around is the hypothetical discovery of a rabbit fossil dating from the Cretaceous period. If such a thing were discovered of course the first instinct (and rightly so) of the scientific community would be that it was a hoax, but suppose for the sake of argument that it was somehow proven that it was 100% genuine. I'm not sure that this evidence would disprove evolution. There are plenty of examples of convergent evolution, so even if we could be sure that modern rabbits did not descend from these rabbits, it could be possible that these were actually pseudorabbits, which evolved in a similar way from different ancestors, and which proceeded to die off. The fact that we did not have fossils of immediate ancestors of the rabbits would not disprove evolution, because the fossil record is not and never could be comprehensive.

Perhaps a better hypothetical piece of evidence against evolution would be if an animal gave birth to an animal of a completely different species. But I'm not sure that even this would work. Even though such an event would be incredibly remarkable, it would be something very rare and as such not likely to affect the overall course of evolution. We can imagine that if a new species were to be spontaneously created in this manner, there would be no breeding population for the new animal, so it would die and that would be the end of it. I suppose that such an event would call into question our understanding of genetics, at least of that species, but I am not sure that the current genetic theory is essential for evolution to work. All we need is some model which allows for inheritance and which allows for rare traits to be passed on (and not diluted in an otherwise pure bloodline).

What if we go really absurd and imagine that we find a plate from before humans existed which said in English "Evolution is false--God." Certainly in this situation we would know that something really strange was going on, but we can imagine really strange situations which account for this and don't disprove evolution. For example, perhaps it was a prank by a time traveler. Even I, who believe in God, would be more likely to accept that explanation than the plaque being God's communication to us about evolution (because it is inconsistent with how God tends to reveal things).

My point is this: if scientists are honest with themselves, I think that many of them would agree that there is no evidence, or at least no evidence short of the absolutely absurd, which would change their minds about the truth of evolution. This does not mean that evolution is wrong. There is no evidence that I can imagine which would tell me that the Pythagorean theorem is false on a plane. But it is dangerous to dismiss others because they don't allow falsification. In fact very little of worth can be falsified in the Popperian sense, and even in science falsification plays less of a role than we often suppose.

There are other good reasons to attack creationists, both scientific and philosophical. It is best to stick to those.

what if a plate was discovered that stated no one made me - twinc
 
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twinc

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That's kind of the thing. Evolution is treated as something it's not in creationist circles. Just reading the site Azure linked is funny.

Actually, I was just thinking about it. It's not every species, but every individual organism.

The best way to look at it is like a color wheel.

5356ac49dbfa3f61c0012d2c._w.540_s.fit_.jpg


We have a definite concept of blue and red, for example, and even purple. But when does blue cease to be blue and become purple? When does purple cease to be purple and become red? If I picked a random part of the spectrum between all of possible blue and possible red, would you be able to definitively claim exactly what color it is?

Of course not. Biological evolution works in the same fashion. It really is nothing more than a gradual shifting around, modification, and re-purposing of traits over time.

this is variation or micro evolution, not denied by anyone but origins or macro evolution did not and could not happen - twinc
 
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Chany

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The fact that you have to emphasize the extreme nature of these discoveries just strengthens the point.

The birth of one specific animal from another entirely different species wouldn't just falsify evolution. It would also falsify genetics, biology, creationism (as it currently stands), and would bring into question pretty much all of our knowledge. The only way it could happen is by divine intervention or the work of a human who really wanted it to happen.

For completely out of order animals that couldn't be in a certain geological time period (rabbits), really depends upon the time period. For example, I think you mean Precambrian rabbit (a rabbit fossil before verterbrates started appearing). The ancestors of rabbits were from the late Cretaceous (it ended 65 million years ago). We found the "first" rabbits to be around 55 million years, not to far from the Cretaceous. If it wasn't for the extinction event, it wouldn't be that weird if we found an earlier rabbit ancestor.

Scientists are obviously skeptical of claims that try to dismiss of a predictive model of the universe that fits the world. To evolutionary biologists and most scientists (with the exception of a few small creationists), the idea of attacking the credibility of the theory of evolution as a whole is akin to trying to discredit germ theory or the theory of gravity. Sure, there are mysteries we don't yet understand, where our current models can't yet handle things (gravity and various physics theories come to mind). There are debates about the specifics. There are things we'll probably never understand. But no one would give calling a "gravity denialist" crazy a second thought.

If you provided enough evidence to pretty much overturn or falsify evolution, most people would drop it, given enough time. However, at this point, the theory of evolution is considered such a level of truth to be like gravity. The Precambrian rabbit and a species birthing an entirely different organism would be along the same extreme, world-altering lines as your plate.
 
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Chany

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this is variation or micro evolution, not denied by anyone but origins or macro evolution did not and could not happen - twinc

There is no distinction between "macro" and "micro" evolution. There is only evolution. Evolution is just modification of existing traits and the occasional minor mutation of a preexisting trait (for example, a mutation in humans produced bones that are much harder to break). The only different between "micro" and "macro" is the amount of time.
 
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ebia

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twinc said:
this is variation or micro evolution, not denied by anyone but origins or macro evolution did not and could not happen - twinc
You appear not to have understood the analogy at all.
 
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MoonlessNight

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The fact that you have to emphasize the extreme nature of these discoveries just strengthens the point.

The birth of one specific animal from another entirely different species wouldn't just falsify evolution. It would also falsify genetics, biology, creationism (as it currently stands), and would bring into question pretty much all of our knowledge. The only way it could happen is by divine intervention or the work of a human who really wanted it to happen.

For completely out of order animals that couldn't be in a certain geological time period (rabbits), really depends upon the time period. For example, I think you mean Precambrian rabbit (a rabbit fossil before verterbrates started appearing). The ancestors of rabbits were from the late Cretaceous (it ended 65 million years ago). We found the "first" rabbits to be around 55 million years, not to far from the Cretaceous. If it wasn't for the extinction event, it wouldn't be that weird if we found an earlier rabbit ancestor.

Scientists are obviously skeptical of claims that try to dismiss of a predictive model of the universe that fits the world. To evolutionary biologists and most scientists (with the exception of a few small creationists), the idea of attacking the credibility of the theory of evolution as a whole is akin to trying to discredit germ theory or the theory of gravity. Sure, there are mysteries we don't yet understand, where our current models can't yet handle things (gravity and various physics theories come to mind). There are debates about the specifics. There are things we'll probably never understand. But no one would give calling a "gravity denialist" crazy a second thought.

If you provided enough evidence to pretty much overturn or falsify evolution, most people would drop it, given enough time. However, at this point, the theory of evolution is considered such a level of truth to be like gravity. The Precambrian rabbit and a species birthing an entirely different organism would be along the same extreme, world-altering lines as your plate.

There is a subtlety going on here that I think you are missing. Part of the reason that evolution is so well accepted is that there is a good deal of evidence for it and that it fits the facts that we have seen. But part of the reason is that evolution can be used to explain a wide variety of events with some plausibility. Or to say things another way: the more that you accept the theory, the more evidence that you can find for the theory.

Let me give an example: someone could claim that human altruism is an argument for evolution. The idea would be that communities of humans which helped each other out had a higher probability of survival, and therefore were more likely to have offspring, so that if there were a genetic component to altruism it would be favored by natural selection. Since we can observe altruism in humans today, and evolution explains such behavior, then evolution is more likely.

We hear such stories all of the time in pop science sources, though I confess that I don't know how much actual biologists use them. But could this be considered as evidence of evolution to anyone who didn't already favor evolution? Surely any number of theories explain human altruism, so the fact that it exists could be evidence for any number of things.

Evolution define success of a species to be its ability to survive and reproduce. Therefore, any species which is alive and reproduces is to some degree successful. Therefore everything currently here can be said to be successful from an evolutionary standpoint. This means that any feature of any creature can plausibly be said to be there because it contributed to evolutionary success. In the rare cases that no purpose can be imagined, it can said to be a vestigial remnant of a previously successful adaptation.

To those on the side of evolution, this is merely speculation from a known result. To those not convinced, it is question begging.

When you get right down to it, the only convincing argument for evolution is that it is the most elegant theory that explains the biological phenomenon that we see. But this is not a simple argument. You need to understand a great deal of biology and understand the discarded models to find this plausible. It is not something that can be expressed in a day, or a week, or a month.

We can appeal to the knowledge of scientists, but this is not an argument that gives the listener any understanding. To some extent, there is nothing wrong with this. I wouldn't attempt to explain to most people why the Poincare conjecture holds, for example, because the machinery needed for the argument requires years of study. If they asked whether it does I would say that mathematicians agree that it does, but to fully explain why would require far too much time. But I would not expect that the listener would understand anything more at that point. Probably he would not care whether or not the Poincare conjecture was true.

And I think realistically that is the right attitude for most people to take towards evolution. Biologists are convinced of it, but to fully understand why they believe it you would have to be a biologist. So they can either choose to accept, without understanding, the word of the biologist, or to remain in an agnostic state about the matter, or perhaps to try to see if there was a counterargument. I think that any of these responses are reasonable.

But instead in this issue, for whatever reason, we must have the assent of every man, even though we cannot have the understanding of every man. The standard technique will be to present evidence in action, but it will be evidence which can only be appreciated as such by a biologist, who would probably be convinced of evolution in any case.

I can even give you an example of one of your arguments that falls into this category:

There is no distinction between "macro" and "micro" evolution. There is only evolution. Evolution is just modification of existing traits and the occasional minor mutation of a preexisting trait (for example, a mutation in humans produced bones that are much harder to break). The only different between "micro" and "macro" is the amount of time.

Can you not see that this is not plausible unless you already accept almost all of the postulates required for evolution?

If not every attribute can be changed through a mutation (or at least every attribute which can differentiate two organisms), only micro evolution would be possible, because there would be a limit to how far an animal could change, so that there would be different kinds which could not become other kinds.

If the mutations could not be directed over long periods of time, only micro evolution would be plausible, because complex multi-stage adaptations would not have the time to form.

If mutations happened at too rare of rate, macro-evolution could occur but may not have had enough time to by this point.

There is no need for any process to continue for an arbitrary length of time, and indeed in the natural world many processes do not last forever (especially with changing environmental conditions).

This means that to argue for macro evolution, you need to establish that all the differences between organisms are encoded in genes which can mutate, that natural selection can be sustained towards an end for ages, and that mutations happen and are sustained in the population quickly enough for macro-evolution to have time to occur.

That is: you need to be explaining the building blocks of the model of evolution. It is no good to take conclusions of evolution and try to argue from them. They only convince the converted.

I offer all of this as rhetorical advice, not as an attack on the theory of evolution.
 
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Root of Jesse

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That's kind of the thing. Evolution is treated as something it's not in creationist circles. Just reading the site Azure linked is funny.

Actually, I was just thinking about it. It's not every species, but every individual organism.

The best way to look at it is like a color wheel.

5356ac49dbfa3f61c0012d2c._w.540_s.fit_.jpg


We have a definite concept of blue and red, for example, and even purple. But when does blue cease to be blue and become purple? When does purple cease to be purple and become red? If I picked a random part of the spectrum between all of possible blue and possible red, would you be able to definitively claim exactly what color it is?

Of course not. Biological evolution works in the same fashion. It really is nothing more than a gradual shifting around, modification, and re-purposing of traits over time.

Well, I believe evolution and creationism don't conflict in the slightest.

Regarding your color example, if there's 9,999,999 parts red and 1 part blue, it's no longer red or blue. Because purple is any combination of red and blue.
 
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So the idea that God created Man and nature perfect and then death entered in due to sin doesn't conflict with the notion that God created man as an organism that steadily is born, dies, mutates, evolves, dies, evolves, and somehow eventually became perfect and deathless then back to something that dies seems compatible?

Well, I believe evolution and creationism don't conflict in the slightest.

Regarding your color example, if there's 9,999,999 parts red and 1 part blue, it's no longer red or blue. Because purple is any combination of red and blue.
 
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Azureknight 773

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Okay. The reason I ask is because the sites you keep linking are Young Earth Creationists. They believe in a literal interpretation of Genesis and anyone who doesn't follow such an interpretation is not really a Christian.

In short, to these people, the earth is 6,000 to 10,000 years old. Everything in Genesis happened as it appeared in the Bible literally; no allegory allowed. The earth flooded over entirely and Noah's Ark happened exactly as reported in the Bible; no ifs, ands, or buts.

Some of them are also completely closed off to evidence. For example, in the recent Ken Ham/ Bill Nye debate, Ham stated clearly that nothing would change his mind. No amount of evidence against him will ever change his mind.

Like I said before, this doesn't, in and of itself, disprove creationism. A broken clock is right twice a day, after all. However, no one watches a broken clock for the correct time and hopes that it's one of those two times of the day.

Well, that is because there are not much Old Earth Creationist websites to go about.

The criticism I have on these YECs is that radiometric datings go way back, beyond the 6000-10000 year mark. Similarly, if we take into account the first chapter of Genesis into a literal translation, Adam could not have completed his task in day six in naming all of the animals on Earth in a monumental scale. It is just not possible since he was as if we consider his creation on the 3rd or 4th hour of the past 12th hour, which is noon and went to all sorts of effort. Even if God endowed him with Quicksilver/ The Flash speed with inexhaustible stamina, still it would take him days to cover the whole Earth assuming that Eden's entirety is the whole Pangaea. Now just how big is that super continent? Let us Google it for the sake of time. Heck, even going under the waters of the ocean would even take him months to years or even centuries exploring its vast expanse. Now assuming that even when Eve was created into the world still on day six @ 5 or 6 PM, still this would not even fit a literal 24- hour day. So all of man's activities by the pre-fall would tell us that there was a long period of time by the events between the days until the fall.

The Great Flood's survivors statistically could not replenish the multitude of people around the world lost by the Flood in just a few generations. No, that is so impossible, even with twins, triplets, quadruplets, and quintuplets involved. So, Generation 1 from Noah and his wife with wives= six people, Gen 2 with parents= 14 and so on and so forth. So between Noah and Nimrod, it would take a monumental amount of multi-generation births to make it to that as what was described in Scripture.
 
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Root of Jesse

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I just think there's reason to say that the Bible Creation (and all the Genesis) story is not incompatible with the Scientific version. They speak of the same events in different ways. So, for Creationists to rule out Evolution, or vice versa, is wrong. The Bible says that at one point there was nothing, and that at another point, there was everything. Science tries to explain how we went from nothing to everything.

There are also folks who try to explain every event in Genesis scientifically, and I think they're missing the point, too. How was manna created? And how did it meet the needs of the Hebrews? I don't know, and Science tries to explain it, but I don't care, either. I believe in a literal flood, though. Why? Three words, placed together...Himilayan Sea Salt...
 
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Azureknight 773

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IF ever we did evolve, then if we take "out from the Earth" from the Bible Creation story, then we would give a plausible yes. But to say that we came from an earlier precursor that is not from our own specie is just plain incorrect as per Genesis and Genetics say that we all (including animals and plants) came from earlier precursors of the same specie. Like a dog came from a dog, a cat came from a cat, a horse came from a horse, an apple came from an apple, a rose came from a rose and so on and so forth. Particle to organism, directed by Divine intervention. God must've used these to create us but not that one made another. Intelligent design is valid as it should be through these.
 
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ChesterKhan

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1. It is only after many generations that we start to notice differences.

Generally speaking, I would think you would be correct. And that's fine. But just because we don't notice the difference doesn't mean there is not one.
2. First, more complex animals do have emotions (how conscious they are of these emotions and differences between animals are still up for study). Highly social animals display some level of morality and a basic (compared to humans) social structure.
And I can believe that. But what animals lack is... culture. That is not merely an intellectual exercise. Building a dam, or a termite mound, or defending a nest, that could be intellectual. Semiotics is an intellectual exercise. But... culture is different. It's not there to be useful in the sense of chemical signals or rabbit holes.

More importantly, it's important to note that no other animal, not even very intelligent ones like dogs or cats, make art, or have culture, not even crude cultures. But the earliest men had culture - as indicated by their cave drawings. And those cave drawings... are not "crude". Some of them are actually very good.

I don't see what any of this stuff has to do with the fact of allele frequencies changing in a population overtime.
It would seem to me, naturally speaking, culture would be more or less crude the more or less intelligent an animal gets. Yet, while some pigs are more intelligent than some humans, in a culture contest, the humans win every time. Even the most mentally challenged ones have a better concept of culture than the most intelligent pig or dog.

Kind of strange, don't you think?

You're a humanist. Why do you consider yourself one? What makes men different from the other species? Special? Worth saving, however you would define that?
 
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