Matthew 6:7 "vain repetitions", the Rosary and Vatican Versions

brandplucked

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Rot and Heiferdust! All reputable translations are fine. Your insistence that the KJV is the standard against which other English translations are to be judged is wrong-headed, It is not any kind of a standard nor was it designed as such. Even the KJV translators themselves disagree with you.
Source: Preface to the King James Version 1611, Part 9 of 10

Hi Kiwi. The FACT is you do not believe that ANY Bible in any language IS or ever was the complete, inspired and infallible words of God.

You use the same "quote" other bible agnostics like James White and Tim Conway do. You completely miss the whole point of "the meanest translation is the word of God".

They are contrasting the Reformation Bibles with the Catholic bible. Don't believe it? Read the whole quote in the context in which it is given.

See - meanest translation - Another King James Bible Believer
 
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By Faith Alone

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Not to be frank, but you perceiving lack of emotion does not mean that their prayers are vain. and calling it "creepy" is offensive and subjective.

It is creepy to me too. I see it on EWTN. Mary is NOT the focus of our worship. Mary is...DEAD.....and prayers to her do NO GOOD.

1Tim 6:15-6 says only GOD has immortality at this time.

Phil 2:27 shows a man that was sick night unto death and God had mercy and let him live. If death was a gateway to life then no mercy was needed.

Angels are SERVANTS of God and we do NOT pray to angels.

One prayer I heard said Jesus was endowed with super-human intelligence. GOOD GRIEF! Jesus was God Himself!

It is BEYOND creepy.
 
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Albion

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On our TV cable, there is a channel that runs a "show" (for lack of a better word) that is 100% a very old Sister/Nun that is leading a group of Nuns in a continual repetition of the "Hail Mary"... it is downright creepy. There is little to no emotion or inflection in their voices or on their faces.

Whether others like it or not, you do have a point there. The rosary is supposed by its users to have been given to St. Dominic by the Virgin Mary, but the prayers appointed to be prayed on the rosary have changed over the years, so it's not as though there's anything eternal or graven in stone about them. What's more, it's undeniable that most who pray the rosary speed through the beads and prayers as quickly as possible, in a monotone. So the idea that this is free of any degree of "vain repetitiousness" is not to be taken seriously.
 
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Pell

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Mary is...DEAD.....and prayers to her do NO GOOD.

1Tim 6:15-6 says only GOD has immortality at this time.
John 3:16 | KJV | For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2 Corinthians 5:8 | KJV | We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord

Philippians 1:23-24 | KJV | For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

Yes, Mary is dead in the sense that her soul is separated from her body, but the three verses above support the idea that the human souls themselves are still conscious, alive, and immortal after separation from the body.
Phil 2:27 shows a man that was sick night unto death and God had mercy and let him live. If death was a gateway to life then no mercy was needed.
Philippians 1:23-24 | KJV | For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

Although St. Paul desired to be with Jesus in Heaven, he knew that others needed him. In the same sense, while the healing of the sick man meant he would have to continue and endure the harsh life on earth, it also meant he could continue to do good deeds and lead others to Christ. Therefore, mercy was needed not only to ease the sick man's suffering but to help others.

Also, like St. Paul said about the sick man:

Philippians 2:27 | KJV | For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.
Angels are SERVANTS of God and we do NOT pray to angels.
Why not? When someone prays to angels, it's not as if we're asking the angels to use their own powers to solve our problems; rather, we are asking the angels to ask God to help us.
One prayer I heard said Jesus was endowed with super-human intelligence. GOOD GRIEF! Jesus was God Himself!
Jesus has two natures: human and Divine (or God). The Divine nature possesses omniscience, but the human nature has finite knowledge like you and me; however, His human nature's knowledge was enhanced through beatific vision. How the intellects of the two natures intermingle is unknown to theologians.

Luke 2:52 | KJV | And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

This supports the idea that Jesus, in His human nature, has finite knowledge. In conclusion, it's very appropriate to say that He was endowed with super-human intelligence.
Whether others like it or not, you do have a point there. The rosary is supposed by its users to have been given to St. Dominic by the Virgin Mary, but the prayers appointed to be prayed on the rosary have changed over the years, so it's not as though there's anything eternal or graven in stone about them.
The Rosary is a private devotion, and therefore, was never intended to be set in stone; in fact, Mary changed the Rosary herself with the addition of the Fatima prayer.
What's more, it's undeniable that most who pray the rosary speed through the beads and prayers as quickly as possible, in a monotone. So the idea that this is free of any degree of "vain repetitiousness" is not to be taken seriously.
Most? I'm not sure about that, but some people probably do say it in vain. Also, saying it in a monotone voice doesn't really change anything. It probably helps many people focus.
 
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Albion

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Most? I'm not sure about that, but some people probably do say it in vain. Also, saying it in a monotone voice doesn't really change anything. It probably helps many people focus.

Could be it's many instead of most? Speed praying the same prayer over fifty times in a monotone voice may show focus?

You're trying everything imaginable to deny the obvious, but I don't think it worked. ;)
 
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Pell

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Could be it's many instead of most? Speed praying the same prayer over fifty times in a monotone voice may show focus?
Again, tone of voice doesn't matter. The Rosary is meditation, contemplation, and vocal. For someone to focus on all three, they might not want to use much energy to vocalize beyond monotone.

The speed of the prayer is another subject altogether. Someone particularly gifted at praying might say the Rosary faster than someone like myself.
You're trying everything imaginable to deny the obvious, but I don't think it worked. ;)
I'm denying that the Rosary itself is vain repetition. I'm also denying that most people say the Rosary in vain. If you can prove otherwise, please, enlighten me.

And don't wink at me. I blush too easily. :blush:
 
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Albion

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Again, tone of voice doesn't matter.
Of course it matters. When we speak of anything being "vain" we are speaking of a certain mindset and one's mindset comes through in external behavior.

I'm denying that the Rosary itself is vain repetition.
No kidding. You might say you're bending over backwards to find something to discount the idea that it might be a vain repetition.
 
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Pell

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Of course it matters. When we speak of anything being "vain" we are speaking of a certain mindset and one's mindset comes through in external behavior.
Will you clarify what you mean by, "...one's mindset comes through in external behavior."? Do you mean one's mindset is expressed through outward behavior or vice versa, or something else entirely?
No kidding. You might say you're bending over backwards to find something to discount the idea that it might be a vain repetition.
"If you can prove otherwise, please, enlighten me."
 
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By Faith Alone

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John 3:16 | KJV | For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Have you ever heard of the resurrection? If death were the gateway to life then it would not be the enemy (1 Cor 15:26)

2 Corinthians 5:8 | KJV | We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord

The passage in Corinthians has to do with the saints whose hope was to dwell with Christ in his Kingdom on earth. It is obvious that this resurrection is postponed because Jesus did not return to set up His kingdom and that due to Israel's blindness and lack of repentance (Acts 3:19, 20 and Acts 28:25-28).
The Bible tells us that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God:

1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Paul knew this. Paul had a desire to avoid this “naked state”:
2 Cor 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
He did not want to experience the sting of death that those before him experienced. He “groaned” to be clothed with the glorious body he longed for so that he could be present with Christ. He knew that while he was in that mortal body he could not be present with Him at His Kingdom.
2 Cor 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
He expected Christ to return at any moment to give immortality to those whose promise was the Kingdom on earth.

The point of 2 Cor.5:1-8 is not dying and immediately being in the presence of the Lord. It is about lusting to be clothed with the spiritual body at His coming. If you read the verses before v.8, it is revealed the subject concerns resurrection and a longing not to be in the naked state but being in the resurrection body at His coming........in the twinkling of an eye (1 Cor. 15:52). It has absolutely nothing to do with the lie Satan has generated concerning the “immortal soul”. It has to do with resurrection and a desire to avoid the naked state of death at His coming.

Paul knew that while he was in his present, mortal body he would not be present with the Lord.
2Cor 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord.

Philippians 1:23-24 | KJV | For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

Orthodoxy and tradition have given you a biased opinion of the word “depart”. Just as we are limited in knowledge of the mighty works of God so are we limited in knowledge of Scriptures.
I will leave you with this:

2 Tim 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my... departure.... is at hand

The word “departure” is the Greek ANALUSIS. The verse you gave is ANALUO for depart.
359 // analusiv // analusis an-al'-oo-sis //
from 360 ; TDNT - 4:337,543; n f
AV - departure 1; 1
1) an unloosing (as of things woven)
2) a dissolving (into separate parts)
3) departure
3a) a metaphor drawn from loosing from moorings preparatory to
setting sail


Gen 3:19....dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Yes, Mary is dead in the sense that her soul is separated from her body, but the three verses above support the idea that the human souls themselves are still conscious, alive, and immortal after separation from the body.

And you continue to deny that God only has immortality? How nice.
Genesis 2:7 says man BECAME a living soul and was NOT given one. Body plus breath=life.


Why not? When someone prays to angels, it's not as if we're asking the angels to use their own powers to solve our problems; rather, we are asking the angels to ask God to help us.

Angels are NOT intercessors just as Mary is not. Scriptural support is needed and not what comes out of one's head.

Jesus has two natures: human and Divine (or God). The Divine nature possesses omniscience, but the human nature has finite knowledge like you and me; however, His human nature's knowledge was enhanced through beatific vision. How the intellects of the two natures intermingle is unknown to theologians.
Luke 2:52 | KJV | And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
This supports the idea that Jesus, in His human nature, has finite knowledge. In conclusion, it's very appropriate to say that He was endowed with super-human intelligence.

God the Father only gave the Son the information He wanted Him to have. John 3:13 says He was in Heaven and on earth at the same time. He was NEVER detached from the Godhead and was the outflow from God as to information received. That does NOT include another nature. Jesus Christ was NOT a 2-bit prophet. The battling natures is found in Romans 7:14-21. I hope you will not tell me the Lord had this problem If you believe so...please keep it to yourself.

2 Cor 5:19 To wit, that God was ….in.... Christ, reconciling the world unto himself,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us IN Son

http://www.christianforums.com/t7821389/
Please do not let the fact He was praying in the garden detract form Who He is.


The Rosary is a private devotion, and therefore, was never intended to be set in stone; in fact, Mary changed the Rosary herself with the addition of the Fatima prayer.

Must give INSPIRED Scriptures for support. I am a firm believer that anyone that accepts tradition and the uninspired over Scriptural revelation is tantamount to being anti-Christ.
 
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By Faith Alone

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Will you clarify what you mean by, "...one's mindset comes through in external behavior."? Do you mean one's mindset is expressed through outward behavior or vice versa, or something else entirely?

Mindset wrought by habit. One may quit smoking but still reach for cigarettes in the pocket even though they are not there.
One can lose a leg but the mind believes it is still there.
 
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kiwimac

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Hi Kiwi. The FACT is you do not believe that ANY Bible in any language IS or ever was the complete, inspired and infallible words of God.

You use the same "quote" other bible agnostics like James White and Tim Conway do. You completely miss the whole point of "the meanest translation is the word of God".

They are contrasting the Reformation Bibles with the Catholic bible. Don't believe it? Read the whole quote in the context in which it is given.

See - meanest translation - Another King James Bible Believer

And you think that makes even the slightest difference? Look at what they say, " . . ."Nay, we affirm and avow that the meanest translation of the Bible in English is the word of God." . . ." You can't have it both ways, Will.
 
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Hi Freed. I am more involved over at Facebook. We have a forum called King James Bible Debate with about 3000 members and it is growing daily. I invite you to come over there and I will be glad to answer your questions, but you also have to answer mine. OK? Thanks.

Here is the link (if I am allowed to post it)

King James Bible Debate

https://www.facebook.com/groups/21209666692/

I don't use Facebook, besides a forum is much better suited for debate. If you would like to have a debate here I would be happy to.
 
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Do you wish to set up the time limits etc.? If you would give us some guidelines for the discussion, that would be a great help. Do you want me to go first or you? Thanks.

Once you create the proposal thread we can set up time limits and things like that. In the proposal thread, just state clearly what you will be asserting.
 
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brandplucked

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Hi guys. Well, the polls show that the Majority of professing Christians today do NOT believe the Bible is inerrant and neither do most people here. "Charitable" or not, it is the truth. Your referring to the originals means absolutely nothing. Everybody believes by faith that the originals WERE inspired. But this means you have NO inspired and inerrant Bible NOW. You are confessing a faith in something that you have never seen, probably couldn't read if you had them, and you are confessing a faith in something that YOU KNOW DOES NOT EXIST. Now, that is pretty silly, don't ya think.

That is why you are bible agnostics. You don't know (a= not + gnostic = to know) for sure what God said in hundreds of places.

Why not take The Bible Agnostic Test and see if you know which of these readings God inspired to be in His Book?


The Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy = just more Evangelical mumbo jumbo signifying nothing

Chicago state - Another King James Bible Believer
 
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Strong in Him

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Hi guys. Well, the polls show that the Majority of professing Christians today do NOT believe the Bible is inerrant and neither do most people here. "Charitable" or not, it is the truth. Your referring to the originals means absolutely nothing. Everybody believes by faith that the originals WERE inspired. But this means you have NO inspired and inerrant Bible NOW.

Neither do you - the King James version is not it.

The NIV, for example, is inspired, true, from God, and teaches me his will, his word and his Gospel. God's Holy Spirit can reach, convict, heal, change or challenge through any Bible that we read today.
 
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brandplucked

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Neither do you - the King James version is not it.

The NIV, for example, is inspired, true, from God, and teaches me his will, his word and his Gospel. God's Holy Spirit can reach, convict, heal, change or challenge through any Bible that we read today.

Take the Bible Agnostic Test. Then get back to us about your ever changing NIVs, OK?

Chicago state - Another King James Bible Believer

As for your NIV, which of these NIVs is your "true" one?

What About The “New” NIV of 2011?

What about the NIV 2011? - Another King James Bible Believer
 
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