Non-Christians

[ForJesusChrist]

I am just wondering, for everyone who is a non-Christian, where do you get your morals from and why.

God Bless

 

[Kaonashi]

Where do you get your morals from?Your religion. I'm pretty sure it's the same with them.

 

[MehGuy]

I get them from peer pressure.

 

[ForJesusChrist]

Where do you get your morals from?Your religion. I'm pretty sure it's the same with them.

How about atheists and non-believers?

 

[Eudaimonist]

How about atheists and non-believers?

Virtue ethics. Aristotle and Ayn Rand are strong influences here.

Morals pertain to self-actualizing as a rational and social human individual.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[BaconWizard]

The exact same place that you do when you know that slavery and rape are evil even though nothing in The Bible condemns them whatsoever.

 

[LoAmmi]

I'm Jewish so culture and religion would be my answers.

 

[awitch]

I am just wondering, for everyone who is a non-Christian, where do you get your morals from and why.

God Bless

Reason, experience, and scientific study.

The question I like to ask in response is: Before the Bible was readily available, do you think friends and family stood around a murder victim wondering how to feel about it? Then one day in the future, they read the Bible and suddenly thought, "Hey! That was bad!"

Or imagine this conversation from before the Bible was written:

Fred: Hey Bob, what is upeth? You look upset.
Bob: My life savings is missing from under my bed!
Fred: I know. I broketh into your house last night and stoleth it.
Bob: Oh, ok. I was going crazy looking for it. Well, I better go to work and make more then. On second thought, I'll just take money from the neighbors.
Fred: During the dayeth? While they are home and awake?
Bob: If they ask me not to, I'll stab them with this sword.
Fred: You're so smart. Hey Bob, while you're gone I'm going to have sex with your wife even if she doesn't want to.
Bob: You crazy catz! Have fun. See you later!

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Education, reason, personal experience, and many millions of years' worth of evolved social instincts that we share with many, many other species.

Moralities are intersubjective constructs, quite similar to languages: they may not all look the same, and even operate along an utterly different logic in places, yet some core principles are clearly "translateable", even if there are no universals without exceptions.

The Bible contains a specific cultural morality, and attributes it to a specific deity. It's neither the first nor the last to do so, and its content does not strike me as exceptionally enlightened or unusual. Quite the contrary: where it does not follow quite obvious lines (don't kill your neighbours and take their stuff, be decent to each other), it veers off in bizarre and often downright counter-productive directions (dietary taboos, religious intolerance, genocide, rape victims marrying their tormentors, death penalty for filial disobedience, etc.)

 

[dazed]

Education, reason, personal experience, and many millions of years' worth of evolved social instincts that we share with many, many other species.

Moralities are intersubjective constructs, quite similar to languages: they may not all look the same, and even operate along an utterly different logic in places, yet some core principles are clearly "translateable", even if there are no universals without exceptions.

The Bible contains a specific cultural morality, and attributes it to a specific deity. It's neither the first nor the last to do so, and its content does not strike me as exceptionally enlightened or unusual. Quite the contrary: where it does not follow quite obvious lines (don't kill your neighbours and take their stuff, be decent to each other), it veers off in bizarre and often downright counter-productive directions (dietary taboos, religious intolerance, genocide, rape victims marrying their tormentors, death penalty for filial disobedience, etc.)

This line of reasoning, morality without a moral giver, will eventually lead to how can you say, insert a heinous act, is wrong? Conveniently ignore the bad commandments given by God.

 

[KCfromNC]

I am just wondering, for everyone who is a non-Christian, where do you get your morals from and why.

Same place Christians do - a combination of an innate sense of right and wrong, drawing morals from the culture around us and using rational (or otherwise) thinking to combine them all into a workable set of behaviors.

 

[LoAmmi]

Well, the Torah is in part codifying laws. We have laws on the books in the US that say we shouldn't murder. I do agree that it's silly to argue that before then those ideas didn't exist. In fact, we see Moses flee Egypt after killing a man which would have happened before the Torah was given. But I do cringe slightly when people ask why "You Shall Not Murder" is written there when it's obvious because, again, we put murder laws on the books in the US.

Reason, experience, and scientific study.

The question I like to ask in response is: Before the Bible was readily available, do you think friends and family stood around a murder victim wondering how to feel about it? Then one day in the future, they read the Bible and suddenly thought, "Hey! That was bad!"

Or imagine this conversation from before the Bible was written:

Fred: Hey Bob, what is upeth? You look upset.
Bob: My life savings is missing from under my bed!
Fred: I know. I broketh into your house last night and stoleth it.
Bob: Oh, ok. I was going crazy looking for it. Well, I better go to work and make more then. On second thought, I'll just take money from the neighbors.
Fred: During the dayeth? While they are home and awake?
Bob: If they ask me not to, I'll stab them with this sword.
Fred: You're so smart. Hey Bob, while you're gone I'm going to have sex with your wife even if she doesn't want to.
Bob: You crazy catz! Have fun. See you later!

 

[dogs4thewin]

The golden rule and the law. Can I get incarcerated for an action or would I like it if someone did that to me.

 

[LoAmmi]

The golden rule and the law. Can I get incarcerated for an action or would I like it if someone did that to me.

I think morality goes deeper than that though. The Golden Rule cannot cover a lot of things where multiple actions are acceptable even under the conditions. Judaism actually puts forth a lot of rabbinic suggestions to cover situations such as what to do when a beggar approaches you and you are unable to help them.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

This line of reasoning, morality without a moral giver, will eventually lead to how can you say, insert a heinous act, is wrong? Conveniently ignore the bad commandments given by God.

What do you mean, "without a moral giver"?
Moralities are inter-subjective constructs, and as such rely quite strongly on a community of subjects who judge and evaluate behaviour.
Nor is the outcome of such evaluations entirely random and coincidental: there are only so many ways of organizing a functional community, and even our instincts reflect that.

 

[dazed]

What do you mean, "without a moral giver"?
Moralities are inter-subjective constructs, and as such rely quite strongly on a community of subjects who judge and evaluate behaviour.
Nor is the outcome of such evaluations entirely random and coincidental: there are only so many ways of organizing a functional community, and even our instincts reflect that.

Just using Craig, Dinesh et al's line of reasoning.

Lately, they are admitting that atheists do have morals. However, atheists' "Do not murder" is not the same as Christians' "do not murder" because the latter was given by a god.

 

[dazed]

Well, the Torah is in part codifying laws. We have laws on the books in the US that say we shouldn't murder. I do agree that it's silly to argue that before then those ideas didn't exist. In fact, we see Moses flee Egypt after killing a man which would have happened before the Torah was given. But I do cringe slightly when people ask why "You Shall Not Murder" is written there when it's obvious because, again, we put murder laws on the books in the US.

So, was Moses guilty of murder?

Also, didn't Moses killed/murdered thousands of Jews when he came down from Mount Sinai?

 

[LoAmmi]

So, was Moses guilty of murder?

He was defending another Jew when it happened, but he certainly thought he would be in trouble for what he did. It seems he met non-deadly force with deadly force.

We aren't Muslims, we don't believe our prophets were sinless.

Also, didn't Moses killed/murdered thousands of Jews when he came down from Mount Sinai?

The ones who were practicing idolatry? Yeah, they were killed. The commandment is not to murder, killing can be sanctioned by the divine as can basically anything else.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

He was defending another Jew when it happened, but he certainly thought he would be in trouble for what he did. It seems he met non-deadly force with deadly force.

We aren't Muslims, we don't believe our prophets were sinless.

The ones who were practicing idolatry? Yeah, they were killed. The commandment is not to murder, killing can be sanctioned by the divine as can basically anything else.

Jesus forgave both the Judean rulers and Romans for killing Him.

Matthew 23:
31 So as Ye are testifying to yourselves, that sons Ye are of the ones murdering/foneusantwn <5407> the prophets;
33 "Serpents! produce of vipers!
how? ye may be fleeing from the judging of the geennhV <1067>

Luke 23:34
Yet Jesus said "Father! forgive them!
for not they are aware what they are doing".

James actually uses the word "murder" concerning the Jewish rulers allowing Jesus to be crucified:

James 5:6
Ye condemn, ye murder/efoneusate <5407> (5656) the Righteous-One, not He is resisting to Ye.
[Matt 27/Reve 9:21]

And as we all know, Jesus/God allowed the Roman army to completely level Jerusalem and the Temple some 40 odd yrs later

Revelation 9:21
And not they reform/repent out of their murders/fonwn <5408>, nor out from their sorceries,...........

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
THE DESTRUCTION OF OC JERUSALEM, TEMPLE AND PRIESTHOOD

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of the tormenting of them is ascending into Ages to-Ages.......... [Luke 16:24,26]



.

 

[BaconWizard]

Just using Craig, Dinesh et al's line of reasoning.

Lately, they are admitting that atheists do have morals. However, atheists' "Do not murder" is not the same as Christians' "do not murder" because the latter was given by a god.

You must mean it FEELS different.. the outcome is identical in every respect.
Atheists don't murder because they know it's wrong using all the tools of evaluation that we are born with, and must also recognize non-evaluated instinct.

The way some theists tell it, they don't murder ONLY because they are slaves to another's will and have been forbidden.


This has been done to death so many times, but once more for luck:

1) If God commanded it, would you commit genocide and using slow, painful, horrific and indiscriminate methods?
2) If you are a member of a church, would being told that God has commanded it be enough to assume it is the truth? Perhaps even backed-up by newly discovered biblical texts?
3) If your argument is that God would never require such a thing, who are you to judge God or his reasons? Where are the morals coming-from with which you do-so?
4) If your answer is no to 3) then why do you see these people as leaders if you are not subject to their will or interpretation of God's will?