Non-Christians

[Zoness]

I am just wondering, for everyone who is a non-Christian, where do you get your morals from and why.

God Bless

Culture and social circumstance and some political philosophy. I get my morality from local sources that I am in constant contact with. Since I don't have a religion, these morals are not always an arbitrary list of rules handed down to me. They're fluid and are often reevaluated.

 

[dlamberth]

I am just wondering, for everyone who is a non-Christian, where do you get your morals from and why.

God Bless

From Heart. When we hurt others, we hurt ourselves because we are not living from Heart. When we Love others and are compassionate and help those in need, we are living through Heart.

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[LoAmmi]

From Heart. When we hurt others, we hurt ourselves because we are not living from Heart. When we Love others and are compassionate and help those in need, we are living through Heart.

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I'd say that's too vague because it's basically the idea of morality coming from the Golden Rule. The specifics of morality go deeper than that idea because situations are ambiguous.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

From Heart. When we hurt others, we hurt ourselves because we are not living from Heart.
When we Love others and are compassionate and help those in need, we are living through Heart.

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Good post.
What of the heart is Yahweh searching for in Jereimah 17?

Jeremiah 17:10
I Yahweh, searching heart, examining the affections
and giving to man ways of him, as fruit of his doings. [Reve 2:23]

Young) Ezekiel 36:26
And I have given to you a new heart, And a new spirit I give in your midst,
And I have turned aside the heart of stone out of your flesh, And I have given to you a heart of flesh. [Jeremiah 31:33/Hebrews 8:10]

Reve 2:23
And the offspring of her I shall be killing in death, and shall be knowing all the Out-Calleds that I am the One searching kidneys/reigns and hearts
and I shall be giving to Ye each according to the works of Ye. [Jeremiah 17:10]






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[abysmul]

Romans 1:18-23English Standard Version (ESV)

God's Wrath on Unrighteousness

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,[a] in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

 

[dlamberth]

Good post.
What of the heart is Yahweh searching for in Jereimah 17?

I'd answer by saying the "Heart of God", which is the deepest essence of every Human Soul.

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[dlamberth]

Romans 1:18-23English Standard Version (ESV)

God's Wrath on Unrighteousness

I give gratitude in the blessings received being completely freed from any images or beliefs of a wrathful God.

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[LittleLambofJesus]

I give gratitude in the blessings received being completely freed from any images or beliefs of a wrathful God.
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But you are not saying that God doesn't bring wrath upon mankind at times, correct?

NKJV Search Results for "wrath of god"
"wrath of god"
occurs in 10 verses in the NKJV.

Psa 78:31
The wrath of God came against them, And slew the stoutest of them,
And struck down the choice men of Israel.

Rev 16:1
Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go and pour out the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth.”


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[Eudaimonist]

Romans 1:18-23English Standard Version (ESV)

God's Wrath on Unrighteousness

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,[a] in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

I have to wonder who precisely Paul is speaking of.

I don't think that it is atheists as such. It seems to be a slam against some other culture or religion, possibly pagan Rome. Note how specific 23 is: "for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things."

I'm guessing that his direct audience understood the subtext, and knew exactly who was targeted.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[LoAmmi]

I have to wonder who precisely Paul is speaking of.

I don't think that it is atheists as such. It seems to be a slam against some other culture or religion, possibly pagan Rome. Note how specific 23 is: "for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things."

I'm guessing that his direct audience understood the subtext, and knew exactly who was targeted.


eudaimonia,

Mark

I find verse 23 ironic.

 

[dlamberth]

But you are not saying that God doesn't bring wrath upon mankind at times, correct?

Because I know and experience my Beloved with in the soul essence of life itself, if God were to be wrathful, it is to Himself that He would be wrathful towards. I don't see that happening.

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[LittleLambofJesus]

Because I know and experience my Beloved with in the soul essence of life itself, if God were to be wrathful, it is to Himself that He would be wrathful towards. I don't see that happening.

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Very interesting and thanks.

Have you ever read thru the Song of Songs of Solomon in the OT?
If you key "beloved" into a concordance, it really makes it more intimate.
Perhaps one of the most famous love stories of all times, IMHO.

Any idea who the "Beloved" is symbolized in Song?

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

NKJV Search Results for "beloved"
"beloved"
occurs 124 times in 113 verses in the NKJV.

Sng 5:2
I am sleeping, but my heart waketh: The sound of my beloved knocking! 'Open to me, my sister, my friend, My dove, my perfect one, For my head is filled with dew, My locks with drops of the night.'

Matthew 17:5
Still of-Him speaking, behold! a luminous cloud overshadows them
and behold! a Voice out of the cloud saying "this is the Son of Me, the Beloved, in whom I delight, be ye hearing Him!".
[Deut 28/Acts 3:22]

Reve 3:20
Behold! I stand/have stood upon the door and I am knocking.
If ever anyone should be hearing of the voice of Me, and should be up-opening the door,
I shall be entering toward him, and I shall be dining with him and he with Me.






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[EnemyOfReason]

Ethical philosophies like Utilitarianism are major influences. Jeremy Bentham and John Mill the major influences of that of course.
Although I am not a 100% Utilitarian when it comes to ethics I have noticeable ethical standards that can be found in Buddhism and Hinduism.
My environment did not shape my behavior though as it was very negative and I avoided it(and still do).

 

[O mountains]

If you need religion to be good person then you're still a bad person by nature.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

If you need religion to be good person then you're still a bad person by nature.

That's not an observation that will rankle fundamentalist/evangelical/calvinist Christians, though: after all, they *do* believe that every single human is scum, and it is only God's Grace that transforms them into something marginally better.
Which causes me to wonder whether people who conceive of themselves and others in such a horrid fashion aren't actually horrible persons who've just found a niche where they can be somewhat less terrible by virtue of their beliefs.

 

[prov1810]

That's not an observation that will rankle fundamentalist/evangelical/calvinist Christians, though: after all, they *do* believe that every single human is scum, and it is only God's Grace that transforms them into something marginally better.
Which causes me to wonder whether people who conceive of themselves and others in such a horrid fashion aren't actually horrible persons who've just found a niche where they can be somewhat less terrible by virtue of their beliefs.

"We remember not to consider men’s evil intention but to look upon the image of God in them, which cancels and effaces their transgressions, and with its beauty and dignity allures us to love and embrace them." -- John Calvin, Institutes.

Do you ever have anything to say about Christianity that isn't a caricature? No time for nuance when there's an axe to grind.

People who think that their sins are terrible aren't the horrible persons of the world. The horrible ones are the sociopaths, who have never once had a pained conscience.

 

[BaconWizard]

People who think that their sins are terrible aren't the horrible persons of the world. The horrible ones are the sociopaths, who have never once had a pained conscience.

My god is the one true god and with him by my side I will do whatever I wish and oppress others with impugnity. Proof!

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

"We remember not to consider men’s evil intention but to look upon the image of God in them, which cancels and effaces their transgressions, and with its beauty and dignity allures us to love and embrace them." -- John Calvin, Institutes.

Yup, pretty much what I said: "Whatever's good about people is God's work, everything else is evil and rotten." The subtext is right there. And this is John Calvin, a radical who'd kill a guy who held a different theological stance for fear of letting his "disease" spread.

Do you ever have anything to say about Christianity that isn't a caricature? No time for nuance when there's an axe to grind.

That's the thing about fundamentalism: it is virtually indistinguishable from parody.
Whether we are talking about televangelists like Popoff selling "sacred spring water" to gullible sheep, evangelicals posting anti-Harry-Potter essays with "shocking true facts" taken from an Onion article, or a whole religious tradition hearkening back to the ridiculously gruesome Jonathan Edwards sermon "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God": there's simply nothing subtle or nuanced about Christian fundamentalism.

People who think that their sins are terrible aren't the horrible persons of the world. The horrible ones are the sociopaths, who have never once had a pained conscience.

Ah, but this isn't about feeling bad about one's own errors and shortcomings. Everybody does that (except for sociopaths, who suffer from a personality disorder).
The specific brand of Christianity we are referencing here holds that NOTHING about mankind is good, and everything that we perceive as positive is wholly attributable to God Alone. I needn't tell you how this line of thought influences the believers' perception of those who embrace a world view other than their own. I think that's perfectly obvious whenever a fundamentalist Christian equates atheism with being an immoral psychopath, asks "if you don't believe in the Bible, where do you get your morals from", or holds that Hindus et.al. are essentially idolaters and Satanists.

 

[prov1810]

And this is John Calvin, a radical who'd kill a guy who held a different theological stance for fear of letting his "disease" spread.

The point here isn't "blasphemy was a criminal offence in Christian Europe". The matter at hand is your belief that conservative protestants think that everyone is scum. If these two points were connected, Christians would try to commit genocide against all human beings, including themselves.

Yup, pretty much what I said: "Whatever's good about people is God's work, everything else is evil and rotten."

And that's the gist of Christian orthodoxy. Whatever is opposed to God is evil by definition.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

The point here isn't "blasphemy was a criminal offence in Christian Europe". The matter at hand is your belief that conservative protestants think that everyone is scum. If these two points were connected, Christians would try to commit genocide against all human beings, including themselves.

Well, perhaps their plain humanity is just stronger than their theological conviction, and they simply are more decent than the beliefs they espouse.
TULIP-Calvinism is pretty unequivocal in its misanthropy, conceiving of every single person who ever lived as totally depraved.

On the other hand, even if they were as bad as their beliefs, they would not *have* to commit genocide, because they already believe that pretty much everyone except for those who have been saved (for no merit of their own, as they are equally worthless and rotten by nature, but purely by God's whim) is headed for an eternity of suffering, all to "God's Greater Glory".

And that's the gist of Christian orthodoxy. Whatever is opposed to God is evil by definition.

Taken to its logical and extreme conclusion, this DOES mean that everyone who's not a Christian is either a Satanist (by worshipping idols and demons) or just despicable scum (by NOT worshipping the One True God). Historically, this attitude certainly has informed some of the more questionable acts perpetrated by fanatical Christians, including forced conversions, the systematic destruction of indigenous cultures, enslavement, and genocide.

But in the name of a more nuanced perspective, I will concede that not ALL of Christianity embraces this "gist of Christian orthodoxy", or at least does not interpret it in such a fashion as the Reformed/Calvinist branch. Several of the major Christian churches and denominations *do* see good in people, and even in other religions - mistaken and misled as they may be. It's only a very small, very extreme branch that basically conceives of mankind as totally depraved by default.