Arminianism is untenable

[tall73]

That is very interesting - do you have a specific scripture?

The priests role in the DOA is seen in Leviticus 16.

It is actually quite long, but it wouldn't hurt to read the whole chapter. For those who want the short highlights:



The high priest would offer a sacrifice for himself and his household (which Hebrews notes Jesus did not need to do), and then offers a sacrifice for the whole people. This blood goes into the immediate presence of God in the Most Holy Place. He is making atonement for all the people in the camp.

I am here focusing on the first part of the service as this is the part seen to be fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews. The scapegoat portion is also fulfilled in some way, but Hebrews does not spell this out.




Lev 16:15 "Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering that is for the people and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, sprinkling it over the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat.
Lev 16:16 Thus he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleannesses of the people of Israel and because of their transgressions, all their sins. And so he shall do for the tent of meeting, which dwells with them in the midst of their uncleannesses.
Lev 16:17 No one may be in the tent of meeting from the time he enters to make atonement in the Holy Place until he comes out and has made atonement for himself and for his house and for all the assembly of Israel.




The people's part is seen in Leviticus 16 and 23, with the penalty for not participating being found in Lev. 23:

Lev 16:29 "And it shall be a statute to you forever that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, you shall afflict yourselves and shall do no work, either the native or the stranger who sojourns among you.
Lev 16:30 For on this day shall atonement be made for you to cleanse you. You shall be clean before the LORD from all your sins.
Lev 16:31 It is a Sabbath of solemn rest to you, and you shall afflict yourselves; it is a statute forever.
Lev 16:32 And the priest who is anointed and consecrated as priest in his father's place shall make atonement, wearing the holy linen garments.
Lev 16:33 He shall make atonement for the holy sanctuary, and he shall make atonement for the tent of meeting and for the altar, and he shall make atonement for the priests and for all the people of the assembly.
Lev 16:34 And this shall be a statute forever for you, that atonement may be made for the people of Israel once in the year because of all their sins." And Aaron did as the LORD commanded Moses.

Lev 23:27 "Now on the tenth day of this seventh month is the Day of Atonement. It shall be for you a time of holy convocation, and you shall afflict yourselves and present a food offering to the LORD.
Lev 23:28 And you shall not do any work on that very day, for it is a Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before the LORD your God.
Lev 23:29 For whoever is not afflicted on that very day shall be cut off from his people.
Lev 23:30 And whoever does any work on that very day, that person I will destroy from among his people.
Lev 23:31 You shall not do any work. It is a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwelling places.
Lev 23:32 It shall be to you a Sabbath of solemn rest, and you shall afflict yourselves. On the ninth day of the month beginning at evening, from evening to evening shall you keep your Sabbath."


Several texts in Hebrews speak of the Day of Atonement fulfillment. However here are a couple good ones:

Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

Jesus made purification for sin before sitting down at God's right hand. This was in the first century. He was the sacrifice, AND He was the High Priest.

He not only died, but He entered heaven itself to minister His blood in God's immediate presence, in the true sanctuary of heaven.

Here Jesus is seen entering into God's presence, on our behalf, in the context of cleansing, in direct comparison to the yearly entry of the high priest.

Heb 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own


Jesus accomplished all this in the first century. Yet we now receive the benefit of that shed blood.

Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)
Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh,
Heb 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.


So we have blood Sacrifice, offered for corporate cleansing, then ministered before God in the Most Holy Place.

While Christ's sacrifice and ministration of that sacrifice parallel that of the earthly high priest His is superior in many ways.

Jesus offered it once, rather than repeating every year.
Jesus offered his in the true sanctuary, heaven
Jesus didn't need to offer for His own sin.
Jesus opened up for believers unparalleled access to God, much greater than that in the earthly.


In the OT version only the high priest, and only once per year could enter into God's presence. And then he had to quickly leave. If he came in to the Most Holy Place at other times he could die.

But now we can enter before God's immediate presence by the completed work of Christ.


Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need. Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Heb 10:19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh,
Heb 10:21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God,
Heb 10:22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful.
Heb 10:24 And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works,

By the way, the sprinkled clean, and bodies washed refers to the service for anointing priests. We are all have greater access now to Jesus in the true sanctuary than the earthly high priest.


Jesus made this great provision at the beginning of the Christian era, and people have either accepted it on their behalf, or refused to ever since.


As an aside, you could also be cut off for not observing the Passover, which also was a commemoration of God's deliverance by blood. However, the high point of the Israelite cultic system was most certainly the Day of Atonement, and Hebrews, while covering other things as well, particularly highlights that service.

 

[janxharris]

False. In Calvinism, justification is by faith, not by election.


More strawmen from you, janx?

Then why not correct the OP which describes double payment for unbelievers when, in fact, they were never made righteous in the first place.

The OP assumes justification by non-election (rather than unbelief) for the sake of impugning Arminianism.

 

[Hammster]

The Day of Atonement doesn't assume what?

As indicated before:

In the Day of Atonement the high priest made corporate provision for the whole camp. However, those who refused to participate and afflict themselves were cut off and did not receive the benefit.

The high priest made provision that would have applied to them, but they removed themselves from the benefit.

In the same way Jesus is pictured making corporate provision in Hebrews. And people either avail themselves of it or do not.

Please show from Leviticus 16 where this happened.

Could you also deal with the OP? Thanks.

 

[Hammster]

This makes God disingenuous because He punishes people for sins that His Son already paid for.​

The Arminian view of the atonement is provisional in nature. Only those who believe in Christ actually benefit from the cross. How can the non-believer be paying twice if only believers are actually justified? That which I have emboldened (above) assumes a view of Arminianism this is incorrect but which avails you of a seeming argument of inconsistency against us. That is why I made the point about Christ paying for the sin of unbelief - your assumed definition of the atonement is a reductio ad absurdum.

So then Christ really didn't take the punishment for all sin on the cross. You disagree with Isaiah 53. Thanks.

 

[Hammster]

I've seen Arminians quote this:

But He was pierced because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; punishment for our peace was on Him, and we are healed by His wounds. We all went astray like sheep; we all have turned to our own way; and the Lord has punished Him for the iniquity of us all. ([bless and do not curse]Isaiah‬ [bless and do not curse]53‬:[bless and do not curse]5-6‬ HCSB)

Apparently, Isaiah had it wrong because he should have indicated that it was provisional.



Arminians should also quit quoting this:

He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for those of the whole world. ([bless and do not curse]1 John‬ [bless and do not curse]2‬:[bless and do not curse]2‬ HCSB)

John was wrong. He should have said the Christ was only a potential propitiation.

 

[Hammster]

But one good thing has come out of this. Arminians can no longer say that Christ died for all, when it's proven that He only died for those who would believe.

 

[tall73]

Please show from Leviticus 16 where this happened.

Could you also deal with the OP? Thanks.

I just posted the texts above. Lev. 16 shows the requirement, Lev. 23 shows the requirement and that they were cut off if they did not participate when atonement was made for them.

But just so you don't miss it I will post again just the portions regarding those who do not participate. For the rest see post 161 :

Lev 16:29 "And it shall be a statute to you forever that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, you shall afflict yourselves and shall do no work, either the native or the stranger who sojourns among you.
Lev 16:30 For on this day shall atonement be made for you to cleanse you. You shall be clean before the LORD from all your sins.
Lev 16:31 It is a Sabbath of solemn rest to you, and you shall afflict yourselves; it is a statute forever.
Lev 16:32 And the priest who is anointed and consecrated as priest in his father's place shall make atonement, wearing the holy linen garments.
Lev 16:33 He shall make atonement for the holy sanctuary, and he shall make atonement for the tent of meeting and for the altar, and he shall make atonement for the priests and for all the people of the assembly.
Lev 16:34 And this shall be a statute forever for you, that atonement may be made for the people of Israel once in the year because of all their sins." And Aaron did as the LORD commanded Moses.

Lev 23:27 "Now on the tenth day of this seventh month is the Day of Atonement. It shall be for you a time of holy convocation, and you shall afflict yourselves and present a food offering to the LORD.
Lev 23:28 And you shall not do any work on that very day, for it is a Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before the LORD your God.
Lev 23:29 For whoever is not afflicted on that very day shall be cut off from his people.
Lev 23:30 And whoever does any work on that very day, that person I will destroy from among his people.
Lev 23:31 You shall not do any work. It is a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwelling places.
Lev 23:32 It shall be to you a Sabbath of solemn rest, and you shall afflict yourselves. On the ninth day of the month beginning at evening, from evening to evening shall you keep your Sabbath."

And that is dealing with the OP. The one sacrifice is presented, sufficient to cover the sins of the whole camp. Either one participates or not.

 

[tall73]

Arminians should also quit quoting this:

He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for those of the whole world.2‬ HCSB)

John was wrong. He should have said the Christ was only a potential propitiation.

No, He really is the Savior of all people, but especially those who believe, just as the high priest made the provision for the whole camp.

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

One sacrifice was offered, sufficient for all. But not all availed themselves of it.


You still haven't addressed this related thought either:

Those who do not believe are still seen as despising the Spirit of grace and profaning the blood of the covenant.

Heb 10:28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses.
Heb 10:29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people."
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Clearly the person described was not saved. Yet it was still that blood of the covenant that was meant to make the person holy that was being profaned.

 

[nobdysfool]

Christ did not pay for the sin of unbelief as John Owen assumes and uses to attack Arminianism. For if Christ did so (in such a way), then who even needs to believe? Yes, such a definition leads to such absurdity.

Let's make sure of what you just said here.

Are you saying that Christ did not die for the sin of unbelief? Or would you like to clarify your statement?

Is unbelief a sin?

An absence of unbelief does not mean that belief is present, which is, as far as I can tell, what you're implying. If the sin of unbelief is atoned for (which it was, and Calvinists believe), that doesn't automatically make unbelievers into believers, which you falsely accuse Calvinists of saying and teaching. Talk about absurd!

And your claim that the Atonement is "provisional" is an attempt to bypass the obvious problem your theology created for itself. Like it or not, even Arminians, at the end of the day, are forced to concede that the Atonement is limited, if not in intent, at the very least in actual effect. We say that God intended it that way, you claim that Man makes it that way.

 

[Josephus]

That is very interesting - do you have a specific scripture?

Lev 23:29

For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from his people.

The affliction mentioned here is understood universally by Orthodox Jews as a fast from food and water. If one does not actively participate in the Day of Atonement, then by being cut off from the community of G-d, the atonement that is made for the nation has no effect for the one who is cut off.

 

[Hammster]

I just posted the texts above. Lev. 16 shows the requirement, Lev. 23 shows the requirement and that they were cut off if they did not participate when atonement was made for them.

But just so you don't miss it I will post again just the portions regarding those who do not participate. For the rest see post 161 :

Lev 16:29 "And it shall be a statute to you forever that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, you shall afflict yourselves and shall do no work, either the native or the stranger who sojourns among you.
Lev 16:30 For on this day shall atonement be made for you to cleanse you. You shall be clean before the LORD from all your sins.
Lev 16:31 It is a Sabbath of solemn rest to you, and you shall afflict yourselves; it is a statute forever.
Lev 16:32 And the priest who is anointed and consecrated as priest in his father's place shall make atonement, wearing the holy linen garments.
Lev 16:33 He shall make atonement for the holy sanctuary, and he shall make atonement for the tent of meeting and for the altar, and he shall make atonement for the priests and for all the people of the assembly.
Lev 16:34 And this shall be a statute forever for you, that atonement may be made for the people of Israel once in the year because of all their sins." And Aaron did as the LORD commanded Moses.

Lev 23:27 "Now on the tenth day of this seventh month is the Day of Atonement. It shall be for you a time of holy convocation, and you shall afflict yourselves and present a food offering to the LORD.
Lev 23:28 And you shall not do any work on that very day, for it is a Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before the LORD your God.
Lev 23:29 For whoever is not afflicted on that very day shall be cut off from his people.
Lev 23:30 And whoever does any work on that very day, that person I will destroy from among his people.
Lev 23:31 You shall not do any work. It is a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwelling places.
Lev 23:32 It shall be to you a Sabbath of solemn rest, and you shall afflict yourselves. On the ninth day of the month beginning at evening, from evening to evening shall you keep your Sabbath."

And that is dealing with the OP. The one sacrifice is presented, sufficient to cover the sins of the whole camp. Either one participates or not.

So it's only intended to cover a limited amount of people?

 

[Hammster]

No, He really is the Savior of all people, but especially those who believe, just as the high priest made the provision for the whole camp.

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

One sacrifice was offered, sufficient for all. But not all availed themselves of it.


You still haven't addressed this related thought either:

Those who do not believe are still seen as despising the Spirit of grace and profaning the blood of the covenant.

Heb 10:28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses.
Heb 10:29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people."
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Clearly the person described was not saved. Yet it was still that blood of the covenant that was meant to make the person holy that was being profaned.

If He is a propitiation for everyone, then God's wrath falls on no one.

 

[Josephus]

If He is a propitiation for everyone, then God's wrath falls on no one.

Do you agree that it is a propitiation offered to everyone?

Do you also agree that not everyone accepts that offer?

For the record I'm an Armenian Calvinist. Both "sides" view the same truth from two different perspectives. Both sides are right.

 

[Hammster]

Do you agree that it is a propitiation offered to everyone?

Do you also agree that not everyone accepts that offer?

For the record I'm an Armenian Calvinist. Both "sides" view the same truth from two different perspectives. Both sides are right.

It makes no sense to ask if the propitiation is offered. God's wrath was either satisfied on the cross, or it wasn't. It wasn't kinda satisfied. Or potentially satisfied. It WAS satisfied, according to 1 John.

And there's no such thing as an Arminian Calvinist. To think that both sides are right means that you don't understand the issues. It's not a perspective thing.

 

[janxharris]

So then Christ really didn't take the punishment for all sin on the cross. You disagree with Isaiah 53. Thanks.

All provided for, but only those that look will live. Jesus chose his analogy carefully (Jn 3:14-15). Yes Jesus took the punishment but your understanding of what occurred at the cross must be wrong or we would all be born justified...Jesus even paid for our unbelief...

 

[janxharris]

I've seen Arminians quote this:

But He was pierced because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; punishment for our peace was on Him, and we are healed by His wounds. We all went astray like sheep; we all have turned to our own way; and the Lord has punished Him for the iniquity of us all. (Isaiah‬ 53‬:5-6‬ HCSB)

Apparently, Isaiah had it wrong because he should have indicated that it was provisional.

Romans 10:9 remains proof that Jesus rose for all since Paul preached salvation through belief in that very event. You can't proclaim it with integrity if He did not rise for all. Jesus could only have risen for all if he died for all.

Arminians should also quit quoting this:

He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for those of the whole world. (1 John‬ 2‬:2‬ HCSB)

John was wrong. He should have said the Christ was only a potential propitiation.

John knew it was potential, having authored chapter 3:14-16. Your view of the atonement is obviously false.

 

[Hammster]

All provided for, but only those that look will live. Jesus chose his analogy carefully (Jn 3:14-15). Yes Jesus took the punishment but your understanding of what occurred at the cross must be wrong or we would all be born justified...Jesus even paid for our unbelief...

Since we are justified by faith, then I have no idea what you mean. But you can't say that Jesus kinda took the punishment. The Father's wrath was sorta satisfied? I don't think so.

 

[Hammster]

Romans 10:9 remains proof that Jesus rose for all since Paul preached salvation through belief in that very event. You can't proclaim it with integrity if He did not rise for all. Jesus could only have risen for all if he died for all.



John knew it was potential, having authored chapter 3:14-16. Your view of the atonement is obviously false.

Typical response. Don't actually deal with the text.

 

[Josephus]

It makes no sense to ask if the propitiation is offered.

Does a girl have a right to refuse marriage?

 

[Hammster]

Does a girl have a right to refuse marriage?

Yes. But what does that have to do with propitiation?