Ancient Baptism For the Dead?

[RevelationTestament]

Our answers differ, for sure, but I don't really think RevelationTestament's response speaks to your specific question. His response speaks to the question "By what means will Satan be bound during the millennium?" His response: "...when people accept the complete truth of the Gospel..." Now I don't necessarily agree with that response, but as that is a different topic, in my mind, I see no reason to address the dispute here. Perhaps in another thread.

Either way, RevelationTestament probably needs to clarify how he sees his post bearing directly on your question.

I don't see a dispute between us, or any dispute for that matter.
The question was: "So, will the false religions and worship disappear by God's action or by man's goodness prevailing?"
Being that we are now at the beginning of the "millennium," I can say that there are other religions during the millennium. It will take a few hundred years for the other religions to die out. I believe the Muslim religion will be one of the very last to fully convert, but I really cannot be specific about that. This is both by God's action and man's righteousness in following. I believe the entire world will convert, and that God will publish His holy name in the earth. This He will do for His holy name's sake, and not because of the righteousness of man. Because we do not know God's ways, but only know what He teaches us, and He teaches us precept upon precept, here a little and there a little. But the complete mystery of God will not be finished until the appointed time in Revelation. When the temple is built, righteousness will reign in the earth, but as prophesied, at the end of the thousand years, Satan will again begin to have power over men.

I hope this answered the question.

 

[TasteForTruth]

I don't see a dispute between us, or any dispute for that matter.
The question was: "So, will the false religions and worship disappear by God's action or by man's goodness prevailing?"
Being that we are now at the beginning of the "millennium," I can say that there are other religions during the millennium. It will take a few hundred years for the other religions to die out. I believe the Muslim religion will be one of the very last to fully convert, but I really cannot be specific about that. This is both by God's action and man's righteousness in following. I believe the entire world will convert, and that God will publish His holy name in the earth. This He will do for His holy name's sake, and not because of the righteousness of man. Because we do not know God's ways, but only know what He teaches us, and He teaches us precept upon precept, here a little and there a little. But the complete mystery of God will not be finished until the appointed time in Revelation. When the temple is built, righteousness will reign in the earth, but as prophesied, at the end of the thousand years, Satan will again begin to have power over men.

I hope this answered the question.

Thanks for the clarification. I can't speak for bbbbbbb, but with your latest post, I don't think our respective positions relative to his question are at odds. We each appear to identify "...God's action and man's righteousness in following..." as how the false ideas will be eliminated in the millennium.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Our answers differ, for sure, but I don't really think RevelationTestament's response speaks to your specific question. His response speaks to the question "By what means will Satan be bound during the millennium?" His response: "...when people accept the complete truth of the Gospel..." Now I don't necessarily agree with that response, but as that is a different topic, in my mind, I see no reason to address the dispute here. Perhaps in another thread.

Either way, RevelationTestament probably needs to clarify how he sees his post bearing directly on your question.

Yes, I agree that his response was directed to another topic, as you have noted. You did answer my question, as I noted in my grateful response.

 

[Truthseeker1971]

Going off of 1 Corinthians 15:29, what, if any, is the ancient evidence that Christians performed proxy water baptisms for the dead, presumably sharing in the LDS interpretation of that verse?

There is no proxy baptism for the dead, that is not what that passage means.

The "dead" in that passage is speaking of Jesus Christ and how we are baptized in his name, imitating the sacrifice He made for us, a symbolic dying to sin and being risen and reborn into new life. The passage is asking us, what good is being baptized in the name of Jesus if He hasn't risen?

All of us have this life alone to repent and be baptized into His name. Once you are dead, that is it.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

 

[Norah63]

This thread has some good discussions going.
It would be good if under another thread title.

another reader heard from.

 

[Ironhold]

Some of us can't be on as often as we'd like.

 

[bbbbbbb]

There is no proxy baptism for the dead, that is not what that passage means.

The "dead" in that passage is speaking of Jesus Christ and how we are baptized in his name, imitating the sacrifice He made for us, a symbolic dying to sin and being risen and reborn into new life. The passage is asking us, what good is being baptized in the name of Jesus if He hasn't risen?

All of us have this life alone to repent and be baptized into His name. Once you are dead, that is it.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Great post!

 

[RevelationTestament]

There is no proxy baptism for the dead, that is not what that passage means.

The "dead" in that passage is speaking of Jesus Christ and how we are baptized in his name, imitating the sacrifice He made for us, a symbolic dying to sin and being risen and reborn into new life. The passage is asking us, what good is being baptized in the name of Jesus if He hasn't risen?

All of us have this life alone to repent and be baptized into His name. Once you are dead, that is it.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

You would have me read as "Else what shall they do which are baptized for Jesus Christ, if the Jesus Christ rise to at all? Why are they then baptized for Jesus Christ?

Hmm... I don't think so. First, nowhere else is Jesus Christ spoken of as the dead. Paul is trying to teach the Corinthians of the reality of the resurrection. You definitely have an imaginative interpretation I have never seen before. Most try to say that Paul is speaking about a pagan sect which "baptized" in the ocean that the Corinthians would know about. Now, there was a sect which performed an initiation by washing in the sea, and they believed it was beneficial for them after their death, but there is no evidence of any pagans who performed baptisms for their dead. Further, there is no reason to believe that Paul switched from the they above being those who would rise and be the first fruits. As for the Hebrews verse, it does not speak of resurrection at all. But it does mean that there is no reincarnation in this world. There is no second chance to accept the gospel in the flesh. But Christ Himself refutes your interpretation when he said the time cometh that the dead would hear His voice and those that heard would live. It seems He was saying they did get another chance to accept His gospel, and be resurrected.

 

[Aimee D.]

29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

You would have me read as "Else what shall they do which are baptized for Jesus Christ, if the Jesus Christ rise to at all? Why are they then baptized for Jesus Christ?

Hmm... I don't think so. First, nowhere else is Jesus Christ spoken of as the dead. Paul is trying to teach the Corinthians of the reality of the resurrection. You definitely have an imaginative interpretation I have never seen before. Most try to say that Paul is speaking about a pagan sect which "baptized" in the ocean that the Corinthians would know about. Now, there was a sect which performed an initiation by washing in the sea, and they believed it was beneficial for them after their death, but there is no evidence of any pagans who performed baptisms for their dead. Further, there is no reason to believe that Paul switched from the they above being those who would rise and be the first fruits. As for the Hebrews verse, it does not speak of resurrection at all. But it does mean that there is no reincarnation in this world. There is no second chance to accept the gospel in the flesh. But Christ Himself refutes your interpretation when he said the time cometh that the dead would hear His voice and those that heard would live. It seems He was saying they did get another chance to accept His gospel, and be resurrected.

The dead of whom Jesus was speaking when He said that the dead would hear his voice and live, are fallen humans who are still alive in the flesh.

Since the fall of mankind in the garden all people have been born spiritually dead. That is to say separated from God.

When we "hear" our Saviors voice through the Holy Spirit at the time we receive the knowledge of the preserved gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), and believe with the faith given to us by Jesus, then we are spiritually reborn and sealed until the day of redemption through the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

By this we are completely reconciled to God and have peace and a renewed relationship with Him, as His adopted sons and daughters and heirs to the promised inheritance of Eternal Life with Jesus Christ in the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[Butch5]

Going off of 1 Corinthians 15:29, what, if any, is the ancient evidence that Christians performed proxy water baptisms for the dead, presumably sharing in the LDS interpretation of that verse?

One thing to consider is that the word baptism simply means to immerse. It is quite possible that Paul is referring to the washing of a body in preparation for burial and not baptism into Christ. Today, baptism is a religious word, however, in Paul's day the word simply meant to immerse. We could say it would be equivalent to out modern word dunk.

 

[bbbbbbb]

One thing to consider is that the word baptism simply means to immerse. It is quite possible that Paul is referring to the washing of a body in preparation for burial and not baptism into Christ. Today, baptism is a religious word, however, in Paul's day the word simply meant to immerse. We could say it would be equivalent to out modern word dunk.

Good point.