Ancient Baptism For the Dead?

[bbbbbbb]

My answer would be no for 2 reasons:

1. I do not equate "Celestial inheritance" with the Biblical concept of "heaven" or "Kingdom of God" as preached by Jesus.

2. By the time I reach the spirit world, my place in the afterlife has already been determined by the decision to accept Christ or not in this life. Since I have made the decision to accept Christ in my life, I do not feel my place in the afterlife to be in jeopardy.

Exactly my own thought. However, we are dealing with a hypothetical situation. In my view it is not unlike asking me what I would do if I woke up tomorrow morning on Mars.

 

[TasteForTruth]

I really don't know what I would do if I was approached by someone preaching the Gospel in the spirit world.

Do you believe that there would be any point in preaching the Gospel in the spirit world if there existed, at that stage of existence, no possibility for recourse?

 

[Ironhold]

Oh , you mean how can something that feels so right be so wrong ? You go by faith in Jesus and what is born out in his Word , Not Feelings .. The devil makes adulterers feel so right in the beginning ..

If you'll read the testimonies of those people who have chosen to become members of the church, you'll see that the "feeling" is ascribed to the Holy Ghost.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Do you believe that there would be any point in preaching the Gospel in the spirit world if there existed, at that stage of existence, no possibility for recourse?

Yes, it would be pointless to preach the Gospel to those who are condemned to an eternity in the Lake of Fire.

 

[TasteForTruth]

Yes, it would be pointless to preach the Gospel to those who are condemned to an eternity in the Lake of Fire.

Thanks. But this condition does not apply to the person in our hypothetical—he is not condemned, in his current condition, to the lake of fire. So, as you earlier said that were someone to approach you in the spirit world to preach the Gospel, it "might affect things" pertaining to your in-jeopardy-but-not-lost Celestial inheritance, would you feel that, since someone was offering you the Gospel at that time, there were still hope of claiming your Celestial inheritance?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Thanks. But this condition does not apply to the person in our hypothetical—he is not condemned, in his current condition, to the lake of fire. So, as you earlier said that were someone to approach you in the spirit world to preach the Gospel, it "might affect things" pertaining to your in-jeopardy-but-not-lost Celestial inheritance, would you feel that, since someone was offering you the Gospel at that time, there were still hope of claiming your Celestial inheritance?

Then i would probably consider the various alternative available to me at that time.

 

[TasteForTruth]

Then i would probably consider the various alternative available to me at that time.

The alternatives that would be made available to you in the spirit world are the same that are available here. The gospel is preached in the spirit world for the same reasons it is preached here.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The alternatives that would be made available to you in the spirit world are the same that are available here. The gospel is preached in the spirit world for the same reasons it is preached here.

As I understand Mormon doctrine the basic alternatives are the Celestial Kingdom, the Terrestial Kingdom, the Telestial Kingdom, and the Outer Darkness. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

As i understand these alternatives, one will be just as happy in any of the three Kingdoms as the others. The difference seems to be that there are more benefits in other kingdoms such as Celestial than Terrestial. For example, in the Celestial Kingdom the folks there get to procreate throughout eternity. Nevertheless, they are no happier than the folks in the other Kingdoms. Hence, I would probably take my time and consider the alternatives and the various requirements for them.

 

[TasteForTruth]

As I understand Mormon doctrine the basic alternatives are the Celestial Kingdom, the Terrestial Kingdom, the Telestial Kingdom, and the Outer Darkness. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

Sort of. I mean, ultimately our choices and desires will fashion us to be fit for one of those final inheritances. But the alternatives I'm speaking of have more to do with what we do with ourselves, relative to the Gospel and to God and the Savior.

For example, when the Gospel is preached to us, do we repent? Do we follow Christ's example in all things? Or do we continue on worshiping things of the world? Do we refuse to give up corrupt or selfish habits? Do we become obstinate or defiant, worshiping our right and ability to have it our own way? Do we try to have the best of both worlds by giving up a little sin, while holding fast to other sin? That kind of thing.

As i understand these alternatives, one will be just as happy in any of the three Kingdoms as the others. The difference seems to be that there are more benefits in other kingdoms such as Celestial than Terrestial. For example, in the Celestial Kingdom the folks there get to procreate throughout eternity. Nevertheless, they are no happier than the folks in the other Kingdoms. Hence, I would probably take my time and consider the alternatives and the various requirements for them.

I can only speak for myself, but while I am sure I would be pleased to live in any kingdom of glory, I have viewed what God offers in exaltation and cannot see myself being happy with anything less. I value the fulness of what God offers because He has a fulness of joy. Those who inherit less will not experience that fulness.

But again, my question was not about looking at what God offers as if it's some kind of menu form which to pick and choose. It was about what we love more—God and His will (which we cannot but recognize as having our best eternal interest at heart), or our own will and the satisfaction we can obtain through focusing on it. For God will not force us to be what we do not want to be.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Sort of. I mean, ultimately our choices and desires will fashion us to be fit for one of those final inheritances. But the alternatives I'm speaking of have more to do with what we do with ourselves, relative to the Gospel and to God and the Savior.

For example, when the Gospel is preached to us, do we repent? Do we follow Christ's example in all things? Or do we continue on worshiping things of the world? Do we refuse to give up corrupt or selfish habits? Do we become obstinate or defiant, worshiping our right and ability to have it our own way? Do we try to have the best of both worlds by giving up a little sin, while holding fast to other sin? That kind of thing.

I can only speak for myself, but while I am sure I would be pleased to live in any kingdom of glory, I have viewed what God offers in exaltation and cannot see myself being happy with anything less. I value the fulness of what God offers because He has a fulness of joy. Those who inherit less will not experience that fulness.

But again, my question was not about looking at what God offers as if it's some kind of menu form which to pick and choose. It was about what we love more—God and His will (which we cannot but recognize as having our best eternal interest at heart), or our own will and the satisfaction we can obtain through focusing on it. For God will not force us to be what we do not want to be.

I always find my heart to be utterly deceitful. Am I really selfless if I seek my own happiness and fulfillment? That is why I said I would need to take time to consider the alternatives. It does strike me that those wishing to better themselves in these kingdoms do have more than a bit of selfishness at play.

 

[TasteForTruth]

I always find my heart to be utterly deceitful. Am I really selfless if I seek my own happiness and fulfillment?

Wouldn't that depend on how you go about seeking happiness and fulfillment? For myself, I do not find my heart to be deceitful more than I find it to be true. It is the weaknesses of my flesh that tend to be my downfall. I desire what is right. I want to help...to serve... to be patient... to be kind, etc. But I am not always true to those desires.

I sincerely hope your question wasn't rhetorical.

That is why I said I would need to take time to consider the alternatives.

I understand that. There is no pressure to make the decision hastily. My last post was to point out that my question was not centered on what one would "get," but what one was (or, in the hypothetical, what one had already become, seeing as how he had left mortality and was in the spirit world) at the time of hearing the Gospel.

It does strike me that those wishing to better themselves in these kingdoms do have more than a bit of selfishness at play.

I didn't state that, nor did I wish to imply it. God offers the various kingdoms because He desires our eternal happiness and well-being. It is not selfish to want to accept those gifts, and to strive toward them. And it could be argued that to not accept them is selfish, seeing as how the means by which we reject God's offer (our own will) is, itself, a gift from Him.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Wouldn't that depend on how you go about seeking happiness and fulfillment? For myself, I do not find my heart to be deceitful more than I find it to be true. It is the weaknesses of my flesh that tend to be my downfall. I desire what is right. I want to help...to serve... to be patient... to be kind, etc. But I am not always true to those desires.

I sincerely hope your question wasn't rhetorical.
I understand that. There is no pressure to make the decision hastily. My last post was to point out that my question was not centered on what one would "get," but what one was (or, in the hypothetical, what one had already become, seeing as how he had left mortality and was in the spirit world) at the time of hearing the Gospel.I didn't state that, nor did I wish to imply it. God offers the various kingdoms because He desires our eternal happiness and well-being. It is not selfish to want to accept those gifts, and to strive toward them. And it could be argued that to not accept them is selfish, seeing as how the means by which we reject God's offer (our own will) is, itself, a gift from Him.

If God is a sovereign judge then He will do exactly what is right and true and allot to each his perfect end. Therefore, I am not overly concerned about the matter.

 

[TasteForTruth]

If God is a sovereign judge then He will do exactly what is right and true and allot to each his perfect end. Therefore, I am not overly concerned about the matter.

Are you speaking now from your own theological perspective, or are you responding to the hypothetical (which we are trying to keep in LDS territory)?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Are you speaking now from your own theological perspective, or are you responding to the hypothetical (which we are trying to keep in LDS territory)?

I am trying not to view things through my theological lens. However, I see now that it definitely affected my previous post.

Okay, from an LDS perspective I suppose one would naturally decide to seek the best and highest and do their utmost to achieve it.

 

[TasteForTruth]

I am trying not to view things through my theological lens. However, I see now that it definitely affected my previous post.

Well, your statement about God's sovereignty is compatible with both systems of belief. I was just going to be surprised if you's arrived at that conclusion still thinking a la LDS, since your earlier posts contested the idea that God's sovereignty played any part in LDS's views on judgment and eternal rewards. Which, ironically, is the whole reason for this little hypothetical—for your statement about God's sovereignty is, with perhaps one single exception, exactly how I feel. I also trust that God will do what is right and true, etc. I just happen to also believe that God invites me to participate in becoming equal to what is right and true, if I so desire.

Okay, from an LDS perspective I suppose one would naturally decide to seek the best and highest and do their utmost to achieve it.

Maybe. Maybe not. Human beings are complex creatures. We do not always seek what is in our best interest. In the hypothetical, it is entirely conceivable that a person in the spirit world would continue down the same path he walked in mortality. By virtue of having passed into a new stage of existence, he would have an expanded eternal perspective, to be sure. But he will still be who he became here on earth. If the Gospel was nonsense to him on earth, it's not a given that it will become sensible to him there. He will be subject to influences other than the truth in the spirit world, just like on earth. Yes, the Gospel will be preached there, but others there will be who will continue to spread false ideas—ideas they espoused on earth. One will still have to exercise faith... still have to repent... etc.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Well, your statement about God's sovereignty is compatible with both systems of belief. I was just going to be surprised if you's arrived at that conclusion still thinking a la LDS, since your earlier posts contested the idea that God's sovereignty played any part in LDS's views on judgment and eternal rewards. Which, ironically, is the whole reason for this little hypothetical—for your statement about God's sovereignty is, with perhaps one single exception, exactly how I feel. I also trust that God will do what is right and true, etc. I just happen to also believe that God invites me to participate in becoming equal to what is right and true, if I so desire.

Maybe. Maybe not. Human beings are complex creatures. We do not always seek what is in our best interest. In the hypothetical, it is entirely conceivable that a person in the spirit world would continue down the same path he walked in mortality. By virtue of having passed into a new stage of existence, he would have an expanded eternal perspective, to be sure. But he will still be who he became here on earth. If the Gospel was nonsense to him on earth, it's not a given that it will become sensible to him there. He will be subject to influences other than the truth in the spirit world, just like on earth. Yes, the Gospel will be preached there, but others there will be who will continue to spread false ideas—ideas they espoused on earth. One will still have to exercise faith... still have to repent... etc.

Thanks for the information about the spirit world. I had not been aware that it would so much like the mortal world.

 

[TasteForTruth]

Thanks for the information about the spirit world. I had not been aware that it would so much like the mortal world.

Yes, it is very much a continuation of this life, in some respects. In fact, the spirit world is here, on earth, so I wouldn't expect it to be too different. That said, the conditions I described (being subject to false influences) apply to those in "spirit prison," not those in "paradise." The latter group—those who have accepted the Gospel and been faithful to their covenants—will "rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow." (Alma 40:12) They will minister to those in spirit prison. (D&C 138:30)

Circling back, this is what began this hypothetical line of thinking:

Here I am, a non-Mormon who expects to be in Heaven eternally with the Triune God because I have placed my complete faith in Jesus Christ alone and not on anything I have done.
Do you believe that this is sufficient for me to enter the Celestial Kingdom, assuming there is a Celestial Kingdom?
A yes or no answer will suffice.

OK, as long as you're playing the assumption game, let's assume some other things.

As per your acquiescing, we are already assuming that there is a Celestial Kingdom. Now let's assume that you've died and gone to the spirit world, where LDS teach that the spirits of those who've die await judgment and resurrection. And let's assume that you never did accept the Restored Gospel in life and never were baptized by one holding authority, etc. My question is, would you, at that time and under those circumstances, care if your Celestial inheritance were in jeopardy?

Here we are many pages later, and if it isn't clear yet that the issue is far more expansive than looking at a few bullet points drawn from D&C 76 and saying that we know what everyone's future holds, I think we should continue down that hypothetical trail. For, thus far, the goose for the hypothetical man we've been discussing isn't cooked. There is much more factoring in here than checking a couple ordinance boxes, and we haven't even gotten to resurrection and judgment yet. Nor did we discuss this man's mortal life.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Yes, it is very much a continuation of this life, in some respects. In fact, the spirit world is here, on earth, so I wouldn't expect it to be too different. That said, the conditions I described (being subject to false influences) apply to those in "spirit prison," not those in "paradise." The latter group—those who have accepted the Gospel and been faithful to their covenants—will "rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow." (Alma 40:12) They will minister to those in spirit prison. (D&C 138:30)

Circling back, this is what began this hypothetical line of thinking:


Here we are many pages later, and if it isn't clear yet that the issue is far more expansive than looking at a few bullet points drawn from D&C 76 and saying that we know what everyone's future holds, I think we should continue down that hypothetical trail. For, thus far, the goose for the hypothetical man we've been discussing isn't cooked. There is much more factoring in here than checking a couple ordinance boxes, and we haven't even gotten to resurrection and judgment yet. Nor did we discuss this man's mortal life.

Thank you. Shall we proceed?

 

[TasteForTruth]

Thank you. Shall we proceed?

Sure. You've died. You're in the spirit world. You never accepted the Restored Gospel in life. And the Gospel is being preached to you in the spirit world. You are aware that you've died. It is not likely that you recognize your surroundings as either heaven or hell, although I really have no idea what you might be expecting there, so you'll have to offer correction, if necessary. And you are still being exposed to differing religious philosophies, among which is recognized by you as the Restored Gospel you hear or heard about in mortality.

Looking back, my original question of several pages ago was made with a hasty assumption. We probably should address that now. I asked, "would you, at that time and under those circumstances, care if your Celestial inheritance were in jeopardy?" In order for this question to make any sense at all assumes that, in the spirit world, you concluded that the Restored Gospel was, indeed, the truth. If you don't mind, this is the assumption we'll run with for now. If you want to backtrack later and assume something else, we can do that, too.

But there it is. You there come to understand that Heavenly Father has, indeed, offered you exaltation, and a place in the Celesital Kingdom. And you also there realize that that gift cannot be obtained but through the conditions God has placed on it—acceptance of and faithfulness within the Gospel which, due to reasons truly known only to you and God, you resisted in mortality. Do you, or rather would you, care that God's greatest gift is, for you, in jeopardy of being forfeited? If no, then it probably doesn't matter that we continue. If yes, what then?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Sure. You've died. You're in the spirit world. You never accepted the Restored Gospel in life. And the Gospel is being preached to you in the spirit world. You are aware that you've died. It is not likely that you recognize your surroundings as either heaven or hell, although I really have no idea what you might be expecting there, so you'll have to offer correction, if necessary. And you are still being exposed to differing religious philosophies, among which is recognized by you as the Restored Gospel you hear or heard about in mortality.

Looking back, my original question of several pages ago was made with a hasty assumption. We probably should address that now. I asked, "would you, at that time and under those circumstances, care if your Celestial inheritance were in jeopardy?" In order for this question to make any sense at all assumes that, in the spirit world, you concluded that the Restored Gospel was, indeed, the truth. If you don't mind, this is the assumption we'll run with for now. If you want to backtrack later and assume something else, we can do that, too.

But there it is. You there come to understand that Heavenly Father has, indeed, offered you exaltation, and a place in the Celesital Kingdom. And you also there realize that that gift cannot be obtained but through the conditions God has placed on it—acceptance of and faithfulness within the Gospel which, due to reasons truly known only to you and God, you resisted in mortality. Do you, or rather would you, care that God's greatest gift is, for you, in jeopardy of being forfeited? If no, then it probably doesn't matter that we continue. If yes, what then?

Adding to the situation here is the element of time. Am I correct in assuming that in my afterlife time is not a major factor? I don't have to worry about my life ending and, therefore, I have virtually endless amounts of time in which to meet these standards.