Why do some denominations not believe in Once Saved, Always Saved?

[Gibs]

Now things become clear election deals with Gods love and knowing who will submit to him also the elect in their actions have come into a process of God working in and through them as he teaches them to submit more completly. Election as taught by scripture is never about live how you want cause you cant be lost. John said some went out from among them showing they were never among us. To believe is not to think a certain thing is true and then ignore it. If I believe then it involves my whole being. IF he is lord than he is master of my thoughts actions motives emotians and all things that are me. Election is an all in thing and if I have held back anything of myself than an all loving jealous God will bring me through whatever it takes to get me straight.

Yes Rick357 He sure will work with us to get us to get it straight and I tell you and all He has been hard at work in me.

But we know even then many it seems will not and so it behooves us all to be hearing that still small voice of His Spirit of Truth working in us.

 

[rick357]

There is no such thing in the Word of God of unconditional election.

It depends upon your course of action as to whether or not you will secure the benefits bestowed upon those who, as the elect of God, receive an eternal life-insurance policy.

He doesn't pass it out unconditionally!

He says "Follow Me", He didn't say you are the elect, go your way and whatever you do will not hurt.

Ro 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

No scripture even states we are predestined to be transformed. Without full and complete repentance we are not subjects for transformation.

When we are transformed then we are of the elected ones

Sorry it is conformed romans 8: 29

 

[Gibs]

Sorry it is conformed romans 8: 29

About the same meaning as transformed but again we cannot be conformed either until full and complete repentance and that is in His likeness, or image which is Christ in you the one and only hope of Glory.

 

[rick357]

About the same meaning as transformed but again we cannot be conformed either until full and complete repentance and that is in His likeness, or image which is Christ in you the one and only hope of Glory.

I agree. Election does not in any way say we do not have to repent. Grace is extended to us because God knows our choice before we do. He also knows when we have not fully submitted though we may think we have. Election is about assurance that he will complete his work in us; not that there is no work

 

[Gibs]

I agree. Election does not in any way say we do not have to repent. Grace is extended to us because God knows our choice before we do. He also knows when we have not fully submitted though we may think we have. Election is about assurance that he will complete his work in us; not that there is no work

That is a wonderful statement you have made, I wish all could see as you are.

May you always continue and be blessed in Him!

 

[rick357]

That is a wonderful statement you have made, I wish all could see as you are.

May you always continue and be blessed in Him!

Thank you.may we trust him and see christ fully formed in us.

 

[Rick Otto]

I agree. Election does not in any way say we do not have to repent. Grace is extended to us because God knows our choice before we do. He also knows when we have not fully submitted though we may think we have. Election is about assurance that he will complete his work in us; not that there is no work

God knows are choice before we do because He created us intentionally, not because He created drastically, and needs to look to see what He did.
Election's assurance is that every individual to be saved was chosen BEFORE creation even began (Ephraim:1:4)
1Cor:2:14 explains that before God's grace intervenes upon our sinning, we not only lack the capacity to understand spiritual truth, we even lack the desire.

I believe it was Pelagius who first wrongly asserted his contradiction of Original Sin, by saying we had the ability and inclination enough to make a free will decision to believe, which is itself repentance from unbelief.

Jacob's Arminius breathed fresh life into this with his betrayal of Calvin, and Calvin let himself get involved in the Servitus murder.
I only agree with his sociology, but that's enough to get me branded Calvinist.
eye roll...

 

[MoreCoffee]

When you knock over one domino in an elaborately contrived pattern of dominoes the whole construction will fall. Thus it is with once saved always saved, one slight wiggle and the whole structure falls down.

 

[rick357]

God knows are choice before we do because He created us intentionally, not because He created drastically, and needs to look to see what He did.
Election's assurance is that every individual to be saved was chosen BEFORE creation even began (Ephraim:1:4)
1Cor:2:14 explains that before God's grace intervenes upon our sinning, we not only lack the capacity to understand spiritual truth, we even lack the desire.

I believe it was Pelagius who first wrongly asserted his contradiction of Original Sin, by saying we had the ability and inclination enough to make a free will decision to believe, which is itself repentance from unbelief.

Jacob's Arminius breathed fresh life into this with his betrayal of Calvin, and Calvin let himself get involved in the Servitus murder.
I only agree with his sociology, but that's enough to get me branded Calvinist
eye roll...

Sir all these points have been been adressed further back. Exept the point of "original sin" Adam passed death to his seed not sin.the death has a fruit of sin wich recieves brings more death. " For the son will not stand for the sins of the Father" in addition the scripture states election is by forknowledge not forwill or forcreation

 

[Rick Otto]

When you knock over one domino in an elaborately contrived pattern of dominoes the whole construction will fall. Thus it is with once saved always saved, one slight wiggle and the whole structure falls down.

No matter how elaborate a domino pattern may look in aggregate, the deconstruction is a repetition of one action - denying truth.

 

[Albion]

Now things become clear election deals with Gods love and knowing who will submit to him also the elect in their actions have come into a process of God working in and through them as he teaches them to submit more completly.

Actually, Election is about....being elected. It's not about God seeing that you're good enough or going to be good enough to merit his attention.

 

[Rick Otto]

Sir all these points have been been adressed further back. Exept the point of "original sin" Adam passed death to his seed not sin.the death has a fruit of sin wich recieves brings more death. " For the son will not stand for the sins of the Father" in addition the scripture states election is by forknowledge not forwill or forcreation

Yes it does. It use the words "determinate counsel".

Besides, I corrected all the addresses you mention, with the simple logic of omniscience versus clairvoyance as the basis of foreknowledge.
Foreknowledge is in this case, a result of determinate counsel, - planning as opposed to reacting, having to take a look to see what He did.

Acts 2:23:Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain.

 

[Gibs]

God knows are choice before we do because He created us intentionally, not because He created drastically, and needs to look to see what He did.
Election's assurance is that every individual to be saved was chosen BEFORE creation even began (Ephraim:1:4)
1Cor:2:14 explains that before God's grace intervenes upon our sinning, we not only lack the capacity to understand spiritual truth, we even lack the desire.

I believe it was Pelagius who first wrongly asserted his contradiction of Original Sin, by saying we had the ability and inclination enough to make a free will decision to believe, which is itself repentance from unbelief.

Jacob's Arminius breathed fresh life into this with his betrayal of Calvin, and Calvin let himself get involved in the Servitus murder.
I only agree with his sociology, but that's enough to get me branded Calvinist.
eye roll...

Got any idea Rick when repentance must come by the supplicant and does the elect in your idea need it at all. Anyone can come to think they are one of the elect and have the ticket to the kingdom. That is faith base on presumption and so is not valid!

Those who are not what you term elect then have no chance or choice? Woa Dobbin. I say this to you, any and all down to the last man born can if he wants freely can come and repent falling broken upon the Rock! From then on depending on how he "walks" he can become one of the elect.

 

[squint]

Actually, Election is about....being elected. It's not about God seeing that you're good enough or going to be good enough to merit his attention.

Indeed.

1 Timothy 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour

 

[rick357]

No matter how elaborate a domino pattern may look in aggregate, the deconstruction is a repetition of one action - denying truth.

Sir is this why these debates take place in order to deny truth. I would hope not. Do you believe that all who differ in opinion from you have denied truth. We should be sharing our faith so that we can gain a more perfect faith. If one gives a scripture to say this is a reason why I believe a certain way and you refute with anouther scripture that is why you believe the way you believe then which one has denied truth. It seems to me that only when you deny the scripture that seems to be in contradiction or ignore it instead of searching out with humility how both points have common ground does one deny truth. We must bring our understandings together, submit them to the scripture, and draw out all truth to the purpose that our faith be more established and that we would become a greater witness for him.

 

[squint]

Sir is this why these debates take place in order to deny truth. I would hope not. Do you believe that all who differ in opinion from you have denied truth. We should be sharing our faith so that we can gain a more perfect faith. If one gives a scripture to say this is a reason why I believe a certain way and you refute with anouther scripture that is why you believe the way you believe then which one has denied truth. It seems to me that only when you deny the scripture that seems to be in contradiction or ignore it instead of searching out with humility how both points have common ground does one deny truth. We must bring our understandings together, submit them to the scripture, and draw out all truth to the purpose that our faith be more established and that we would become a greater witness for him.

It's a special thing we have going with believers who think we are worthy of death for disagreeing with them.

Not everybody who calls you brother really means it.

We must speak honestly. There really is no choice in that matter.

 

[Albion]

Got any idea Rick when repentance must come by the supplicant and does the elect in your idea need it at all. Anyone can come to think they are one of the elect and have the ticket to the kingdom. That is faith base on presumption and so is not valid!

But we all know this, I'd hope. No one can know for sure that he or someone else is among the elect . That in no way argues against the reality of Election, however.

I say this to you, any and all down to the last man born can if he wants freely can come and repent falling broken upon the Rock! From then on depending on how he "walks" he can become one of the elect.

You're not speaking of Election if you are positing that the individual has first to prove himself to God. Election means being chosen by God unconditionally.

 

[rick357]

Actually, Election is about....being elected. It's not about God seeing that you're good enough or going to be good enough to merit his attention.

I have never made the claim that elections was based on a man being good are becoming good. I have instead stated that God comes to men who are evil and have no understanding of who God is and have nothing good in themselves. however God does not force there will but by for knowledge he knows they will submit. it is in this process that he acts in goodness through them.

 

[squint]

I have never made the claim that elections was based on a man being good are becoming good. I have instead stated that God comes to men who are evil and have no understanding of who God is and have nothing good in themselves. however God does not force there will but by for knowledge he knows they will submit. it is in this process that he acts in goodness through them.

Yes, God forces them. Free will doesn't exist. People are blinded on purpose, and that by God. See Romans 11:8 as an easier example.

People (like Paul) were commanded by God for certain tasks. Paul had no choice. If God commanded you you would have no choice.

Jonah tried to run from Gods commandment. It didn't work for him either.

Balaam tried to curse Israel. 3 times no less. Didn't work.

 

[Gibs]

Indeed.

1 Timothy 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour

You will find Paul came to repentance first and then he began his walk with God. It was of his free will that he fell broken upon the Rock and so then Christ became his Master!

God coerces no man! God never compels the obedience of man. He leaves all free to choose whom they will serve.

First case in point, Adam and Eve allowed another master for a just a little time, free to choose His or the word of the deceiver.

Their choice was costly!