2 Thessalonians 2:4 Geography Question

[LittleLambofJesus]

The man of sin is revealed to those who know the men of sin.

The men of sin who stand against all that is called of God or that is worshipped are not hard to find, and they are revealed for what they are, but there is also coming a day when all people will stand, and the works of all men will be tested by fire, and all will be revealed in that day, nothing will be hidden.

Some people live as the man of sin and they are revealed for what they do and what they do is to stand against the commandments of God and the worship system of God.

Wouldn't you say this rich man in Luke 16 is a type of a man of sin who appears to be tested in the "fire"?

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

LUKE 16:
23 "And him being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."
24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me! and send Lazarus! that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue;
for I am tormented in this flame.' "

What did Yeshua mean by saying here that the rich man was in "torments in Hades"?
The key to discovering the symbolic meaning of this verse is the Greek noun basanois, translated "torments" above.
According to Friberg's Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament, basanois, which is a form of the noun basanos, means "strictly, a touchstone for testing the genuineness of metals by rubbing against it .

First, notice that the rich man identifies Abraham as his father, just as the Pharisees did (John 8:39). The rich man (Judah) is now shown to be undergoing reproof, testing, and punishment in "this flame" (singular, not "these flames").
It is quite obvious that the flame is not literal, because a wet fingertip on the tongue would do nothing to quench the pain inflicted by real flames.

The rich man cries out from the symbolic darkness of Hades for comfort because of the suffering caused by the flame. The explanation of the symbolism of the flame will require a little background information.
In Deuteronomy 11 and 28, Moses delineates God's part in His covenant with Israel. Moses told them that if they obeyed God, they would be the most blessed nation on earth.
Conversely, if they disobeyed, God promised to curse and eventually destroy them because of their sins.

As the history of Israel in the Tanakh shows, only rarely did they obey God. Although God was patient and forgave them many times when they repented and turned back to Him, eventually He brought about the curses on Israel as He had promised.


.

 

[Old Timer]

It has already been explained to you with Scripture multiple times since you first addressed me elsewhere and you continue to disbelieve the clear statements of Yeshua. In fact you just got through saying that you yourself are the "old man" which shows that still you refuse to hear what both Yeshua and Paul have said. Your "old man" is the unclean spirit of the world and prince of the power of the air which is cast out of the disciple in the commencement when he or she first comes to Messiah:

Here is where I believe that you're mistaken daq..

Our old man is our ADAMIC nature..

There's Adam... and there's Christ.. the second man, the last Adam..

The prince of the power of the air obviously has sway over the whole world although that does not make him my old man...

So who is the NEW MAN according to your belief?

I'm reading the rest separate.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

I dont have any more questions for you on this subject, thank you for your time

Did I offend you?

With this?


Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, and in the seventh day shall be a feast to the Lord.

7 Unleavened bread shall be eaten seven days; and there shall no leavened bread be seen with thee, neither shall there be leaven seen with thee in all thy quarters.

8 And thou shalt shew thy son in that day, saying, This is done because of that which the Lord did unto me when I came forth out of Egypt.

9 And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thine hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the Lord's law may be in thy mouth: for with a strong hand hath the Lord brought thee out of Egypt.

10 Thou shalt therefore keep this ordinance in his season from year to year.




These people die at the 6th hour, in the 6th day, in the 6th month, in the 6th year.

They are killed because they didn't have the seal of God.

The persons who received the mark of God did so because they were mourning over the Pagan practices being practiced by people who came up to the temple of the Lord.

They were weeping for the Messiah of Babylon and keeping the traditions of the solstice.

But we are informed how to get the seal of God in our forehead, and this is what Revelation is going back to, the oldest of traditions.


Ezekiel 9~ at the 6th hour in the 6th day in the 6th month in the 6th year.

Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

 

[OneAccordRM]

Here is where I believe that you're mistaken daq..

Our old man is our ADAMIC nature..

There's Adam... and there's Christ.. the second man, the last Adam..

The prince of the power of the air obviously has sway over the whole world although that does not make him my old man...

So who is the NEW MAN according to your belief?

I'm reading the rest separate.

I think Paul really drives home your point OT

Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Great post

 

[Old Timer]

Here is where I believe that you're mistaken daq..

Our old man is our ADAMIC nature..

There's Adam... and there's Christ.. the second man, the last Adam..

The prince of the power of the air obviously has sway over the whole world although that does not make him my old man...

So who is the NEW MAN according to your belief?

I'm reading the rest separate.

IMO this is the heart of the gospel message as we hear it in Romans 5..

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

This is who we're dealing with..

The First Adam..

The LAST Adam.. our Lord Jesus Christ..

There's not a person justified in the first Adam.. and yet every single one of the first Adam is justified freely in Christ.. who is again, the Last Adam..

 

[OneAccordRM]

Did I offend you?

Not at all..

Luk_7:23 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.

Joh_16:1 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

These people die at the 6th hour, in the 6th day, in the 6th month, in the 6th year.

Ezekiel 9~ at the 6th hour in the 6th day in the 6th month in the 6th year.

Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

Interesting.
The land of Judea became dark at the 6th hour of Jesus being crucified.

Luke 23:44
Was yet sixth hour and darkness became over the whole Land[JUDEA] til hour of ninth.

Reve 16:10
And the fifth messenger pours out the bowl of him upon the Throne of the beast
and became the Kingdom[JUDAH] of it having been darkened
and they gnawed the tongues of them out of the misery.



.

 

[Old Timer]

Paul tells us some other pretty amazing things which are difficult to understand perhaps.. although I think that they're digested nicely over time and begin to manifest themselves as we grow in the grace and in the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ..

For example..

Ye are DEAD.. and your LIFE is hid with God in Christ.. when HE appears, we shall appear with Him...

Our old man is crucified with Christ and nevertheless we live, yet not I, but CHRIST liveth in me..

Wondrous things which could take a lifetime to understand.. yet the simple truth of the gospel of God's Son.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Wouldn't you say this rich man in Luke 16 is a type of a man of sin who appears to be tested in the "fire"?

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

LUKE 16:
23 "And him being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."
24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me! and send Lazarus! that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue;
for I am tormented in this flame.' "

What did Yeshua mean by saying here that the rich man was in "torments in Hades"?
The key to discovering the symbolic meaning of this verse is the Greek noun basanois, translated "torments" above.
According to Friberg's Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament, basanois, which is a form of the noun basanos, means "strictly, a touchstone for testing the genuineness of metals by rubbing against it .

First, notice that the rich man identifies Abraham as his father, just as the Pharisees did (John 8:39). The rich man (Judah) is now shown to be undergoing reproof, testing, and punishment in "this flame" (singular, not "these flames").
It is quite obvious that the flame is not literal, because a wet fingertip on the tongue would do nothing to quench the pain inflicted by real flames.

The rich man cries out from the symbolic darkness of Hades for comfort because of the suffering caused by the flame. The explanation of the symbolism of the flame will require a little background information.
In Deuteronomy 11 and 28, Moses delineates God's part in His covenant with Israel. Moses told them that if they obeyed God, they would be the most blessed nation on earth.
Conversely, if they disobeyed, God promised to curse and eventually destroy them because of their sins.

As the history of Israel in the Tanakh shows, only rarely did they obey God. Although God was patient and forgave them many times when they repented and turned back to Him, eventually He brought about the curses on Israel as He had promised.


.

All you do with these teaching is try to place blame on somebody, but the parable is more than that, it is teaching the kingdom of heaven and the marriage you are currently in in flesh and spirit.


You look through a looking glass wanting to place blame and you miss the whole point of what it is actually saying.


That parable says the same thing as the words spoken just before the parable.


The parable of the Rich man is just showing the Marriage and what was said right before the parable.


Luke 16
Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.




Did Jesus just suddenly lose his mind and start speaking randomly about a Marriage?


He says the same thing over and over.


YOU were given a body on loan that is not yours, and it was given to you as a test in a marriage to see what you would use it for.

But if you cannot be trusted with this bag of meat on loan that dies in an instant, How will you be given what really belongs to you after you are proven to have gone after the treasures of the world instead of using your body in the ministry of God?


The kingdom of heaven is what?

A prophet, a priest and a king?

Jesus was born like all men and he went through all these stages just as all men are to.

He spent a certain amount of time when he came as a prophet, and then he was presented as a priest, and then he was presented as a King.

That is what the kingdom of heaven is, and so when we speak of a priesthood, it is a used or unused position in everyone.



These teaching of Jesus are much more than a finger pointing at anyone.

They are teaching of what sort of creature you are.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

Wouldn't you say this rich man in Luke 16 is a type of a man of sin who appears to be tested in the "fire"?
​

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

LUKE 16:
23 "And him being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."
24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me! and send Lazarus! that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue;
for I am tormented in this flame.' "

​

All you do with these teaching is try to place blame on somebody, but the parable is more than that, it is teaching the kingdom of heaven and the marriage you are currently in in flesh and spirit.


You look through a looking glass wanting to place blame and you miss the whole point of what it is actually saying.

These teaching of Jesus are much more than a finger pointing at anyone.

They are teaching of what sort of creature you are.

Whatever you say sport.....I am pretty much thru with this thread...I don't want to confuse the newbies coming here.....adios


.

 

[OneAccordRM]

Paul tells us some other pretty amazing things which are difficult to understand perhaps.. although I think that they're digested nicely over time and begin to manifest themselves as we grow in the grace and in the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ..

For example..

Ye are DEAD.. and your LIFE is hid with God in Christ.. when HE appears, we shall appear with Him...

Our old man is crucified with Christ and nevertheless we live, yet not I, but CHRIST liveth in me..

Wondrous things which could take a lifetime to understand.. yet the simple truth of the gospel of God's Son.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

IMO this is the heart of the gospel message as we hear it in Romans 5..



This is who we're dealing with..

The First Adam..

The LAST Adam.. our Lord Jesus Christ..

There's not a person justified in the first Adam.. and yet every single one of the first Adam is justified freely in Christ.. who is again, the Last Adam..

22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24



This is discussing the firstfruits, and all those who are in Christ at the firstfruits.

We see this in Revelation 14 when 144,000 virgins give birth on firstfruits, nobody else obtains the first resurrection.

The truth of Christ is simple, and salvation is a simple thing to understand, but reward is something quite different.

The temple on Earth was made in the same design as the temple in heaven, it is in 3 sections and with each section there is a progressiveness of righteousness shown in the value of furnishings when one progresses through the temple.

As simple as salvation is, we still see a difference when some of the virgins are not allowed to consummate the marriage, also when some people suffer loss in the day of fire but they themselves will be saved.

Everyone will not be treated the same because God is a God of justice.

We run a race, and not everyone wins the race.

In the first church people studied the Torah 24 hours a day, and they went out each day trying to obtain a better resurrection.

Salvation comes to the majority but people will still weep and gnash their teeth for what could have been.


To the many who say,'' But we taught your name in the streets, and we did miracles in your name, jesus says,'' depart from me, I never knew you.''

And so we are shown a difference, unfortunately, I find myself at the bottom.

 

[Old Timer]

The truth of Christ is simple, and salvation is a simple thing to understand, but reward is something quite different.

I agree with this wholeheartedly.. and I think that you're coming mostly from the reward side of the picture which is as you say, another thing entirely.

Great stuff, I just have a very difficult time hearing that the man of sin is within the body of Christ.. when the context of this portion doesn't pertain to the present, but rather the future coming of the Lord and our being gathered to Him.

 

[briancfcf]

Great stuff, I just have a very difficult time hearing that the man of sin is within the body of Christ..

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 KJV

3. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
​

The corporate Church teaches that the falling away occurs within the world, but how can the world fall away from Biblical truth when it never had any Biblical truth to begin with?

Source: endtimesalert.com

 

[daq]

Here is where I believe that you're mistaken daq..

Our old man is our ADAMIC nature..

There's Adam... and there's Christ.. the second man, the last Adam..

The prince of the power of the air obviously has sway over the whole world although that does not make him my old man...

So who is the NEW MAN according to your belief?

I'm reading the rest separate.

Paul tells us some other pretty amazing things which are difficult to understand perhaps.. although I think that they're digested nicely over time and begin to manifest themselves as we grow in the grace and in the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ..

For example..

Ye are DEAD.. and your LIFE is hid with God in Christ.. when HE appears, we shall appear with Him...

Our old man is crucified with Christ and nevertheless we live, yet not I, but CHRIST liveth in me..

Wondrous things which could take a lifetime to understand.. yet the simple truth of the gospel of God's Son.

When the baal of the two horns Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah made him horns of iron the Most High sent a single lying spirit which filled the mouths of the four hundred prophets of Ahab the king of Israel. The spirit of the world is the same spirit of "antichrist" yet even though false prophet spirits go out from many the same are also spoken of as one spirit. What is missing completely from your version of the Gospel and likewise from the pulpits of most of the modern shepherds is the fact that Yeshua first appeared unto Mariam Magdalene and seven devils were cast out of her. One of the multiple anointings of Yeshua was performed by her, when she anointed him as her own Messiah, and Yeshua said that her story would be included wheresoever in the whole world the Gospel would be preached. Why then is it nowhere to be found in your version of the Gospel if Yeshua says her record would be that important? Likewise you appear not to be in any need of a physician because you claim to be clean although apparently no devils with their doctrines have ever been cast out of you. I suppose Yeshua must have had it wrong according to you, and wherever you think Paul had it wrong you likewise ignore him, and even Mariam Magdalene must have been mistaken according to your version of the Gospel. If indeed you were "dead" as you say then you would have been able to hear the words of Yeshua; and if indeed you would have admitted your spiritual blindness to begin with then perhaps by now your sight would have been restored.

 

[OneAccordRM]

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 KJV

3. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
​

The corporate Church teaches that the falling away occurs within the world, but how can the world fall away from Biblical truth when it never had any Biblical truth to begin with?

Source: endtimesalert.com

1Ti_4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2Th_2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Joh_17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Luk 8:13 "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

Heb 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

Heb 6:6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

 

[Old Timer]

When the baal of the two horns Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah made him horns of iron the Most High sent a single lying spirit which filled the mouths of the four hundred prophets of Ahab the king of Israel. The spirit of the world is the same spirit of "antichrist" yet even though false prophet spirits go out from many the same are also spoken of as one spirit. What is missing completely from your version of the Gospel and likewise from the pulpits of most of the modern shepherds is the fact that Yeshua first appeared unto Mariam Magdalene and seven devils were cast out of her. One of the multiple anointings of Yeshua was performed by her, when she anointed him as her own Messiah, and Yeshua said that her story would be included wheresoever in the whole world the Gospel would be preached. Why then is it nowhere to be found in your version of the Gospel if Yeshua says her record would be that important? Likewise you appear not to be in any need of a physician because you claim to be clean although apparently no devils with their doctrines have ever been cast out of you. I suppose Yeshua must have had it wrong according to you, and wherever you think Paul had it wrong you likewise ignore him, and even Mariam Magdalene must have been mistaken according to your version of the Gospel. If indeed you were "dead" as you say then you would have been able to hear the words of Yeshua; and if indeed you would have admitted your spiritual blindness to begin with then perhaps by now your sight would have been restored.

I can't even begin to understand the enormity of what Christ has done for me and for all men.. with respect to any demons He has cast out.

And I know now that greater is He that is in me than he that is in the world..

Once again, the context of this portion has nothing to do with demons being cast out of men, but rather the coming of Christ and His church being gathered to Him in that Day.. at the revelation of Jesus Christ..

Spiritualize it as you will, it's not going to change the context of this portion of scripture.

 

[daq]

I can't even begin to understand the enormity of what Christ has done for me and for all men.. with respect to any demons He has cast out.

And I know now that greater is He that is in me than he that is in the world..

Once again, the context of this portion has nothing to do with demons being cast out of men, but rather the coming of Christ and His church being gathered to Him in that Day.. at the revelation of Jesus Christ..

Spiritualize it as you will, it's not going to change the context of this portion of scripture.

You cannot "spiritualize" what is already Spirit:

John 6:62-64 KJV
62. What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63. It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

And did the disciples see Yeshua ascend up where he was before? And who was it that betrayed him but Judas the carnal man who sought only a physical kingdom. It is the carnal man who "carnalizes" everything which is supernal and spiritual because he cannot hear the Truth of the words of Messiah:

Hear the words of Messiah "old man" ancient one:

Matthew 7:12 KJV
12. Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

This is Torah and Prophets, (not your insane literal "end of the world" physical slaughterhouse of vengeance Armageddon mentality) and this certainly refers back to what was already said to you in this thread about oxen and that thirty shekels of silver.

 

[Old Timer]

This is Torah and Prophets, (not your insane literal "end of the world" physical slaughterhouse of vengeance Armageddon mentality) and this certainly refers back to what was already said to you in this thread about oxen and that thirty shekels of silver.

You're actually denying the coming Day of the Lord which is surprising in a way since you obviously have much understanding.

There is literally boatloads of prophecy concerning the time of the end which once again is the context here.. the coming of Christ and His church being gathered to Him..

And of course the man of sin being revealed in that Day who is the beast of revelation who shall have dominion over the earth for forty two months exactly as stated in the scriptures..

That's what I mean by you spiritualizing away the future prophecies concerning the coming of the Lord.. that Day is literally coming and you pretend as though it's some fairy tale..

On a side note, Israel's deliverance shall also come in that Day.. the Day of the Lord, the Day of Jesus Christ... which (literally) cometh as a thief in the night and as travail upon a woman with child..

 

[OneAccordRM]

Satan loves spiritualizing prophecy where it exposes his deeds.

Hes gotta knack for torturing people from prison as well apparently too.