To Forgive or Not Forgive - The In Laws

[Tropical Wilds]

My husband and I have had a really rocky relationship with his family. During his divorce, there were quite a lot of things said and done on their side that were quite hurtful. Some really unforgivable thinks about him, about me, but worse, our joint child. Really, it can be traced back to how his mother is deeply religious and his siblings (while not deeply religious) follow the lead of their mother for the sake of family peace, and they only interacted with my husband's ex and not us so they only got one side of the story through the whole process. He had an OK relationship with his mother, a fragile one with his sister, and a great one with his brother before the divorce... During the divorce an awful one with his mother, a volatile one with his sister, and a neutral one with his brother.

Flash forward a few years, his sister is the first one to reach out and say she's sorry for what happened, acknowledged that she only listened to my husband's ex, and after some life experience of her own she realized that there was more to the situation than maybe she realized. We accepted the apology and went to visit her. The visit went well, I really liked her. My husband was glad it went well but he warned me that I have to "watch her." He even went so far as to say that while he hopes she's changed, she's not reliable, very untrustworthy, and makes a lot of bad decisions. Sure enough, maybe six months later we went to visit her, things were going well, even my husband had thought she'd changed... So we left our son with her (she has kids) to go to the movies on a date night. We texted at 9 and she said he was asleep so we weren't nervous, but when we got home early (11pm or so... We didn't feel like going for the drinks we said we would), we found her really drunk with two men in the house with her who we didn't know, both of whom were also drunk. To make it worse, she wanted to show off our son, so she woke him up... And the first thing we saw when we opened the door were these three drunk people throwing food to our infant son, who was only in a sogging and dripping diaper, like he was a dog. They'd laugh as he'd grab it and eat it or scramble on the floor to grab it and eat it.

We were so upset we left for home at 7am the next day and cancelled all our plans with them. We didn't speak to them for months. My husband was so angry he didn't speak to her and neither did I. She never apologized, never talked about it, and for about a year, when she texted or invited us places, we would blow her off. For me, this was really an unforgivable incident. I wasn't rude, but we weren't chatty friends like we were before. In the meantime, she's maintained a close contact with my husband's ex. I said that made me trust her less as his ex is prone to lying and making drama for attention, but my husband insisted they weren't close. I said I felt that she was demeaning us to his family, he disagreed.

Flash forward about a year, after a blowout with my husband's uncle, my husband's mother said she wanted to have a relationship with us and she hated that she didn't know our son. It was a big step for her, so we accepted knowing that this would mean we'd probably have to deal with his sister again. Around the same time, just before, his brother also reached out and said he didn't even remember why everybody didn't get along and also wanted a relationship. Being with his brother went wonderfully, he was very warm and nice, and I love him. His wife hates me (close friend of my husband's ex), but that doesn't bother me... His brother, who's a genuinely nice person, one of the nicest I've ever met, is great. Meeting with his mother also went well... I can tell she's trying and while things aren't all there yet (she does have mental health issues to be considered as well... It explains a lot and offers a lot of wiggle room), there is no arguing that she's trying really hard. At least from what we see.

His sister, in the meantime, has taken up with a co-worker and they are currently engaged. Instantly, I didn't like him. The guys are going to hate this, but there are times guys put out this vibe that sets a girl on the defensive... This guy puts it out. He seems nice initially, but he says some of the rudest things to her. He bosses her around, but in a way that's demeaning, almost cruel. I've never seen him not drinking, even at a family reunion breakfast, he was drinking. A lot. When we left at around noon, he was drunk. My husband thinks he caught him throwing a joint into the trash at one point at their house. He's always been nice to me, but recently, he's gone into the "too nice" category. Again at the family reunion, he gave me a hug and a kiss on the cheek... But it wasn't like a normal hug and kiss on the cheek... I'm not sure how I can describe it... Hands were slightly too low, the squeeze was slightly too tight, the kiss lasted slightly too long. It made me uncomfortable and my husband was going to say something, but I begged (yup, I did, and I never say that word) him to let it go. My husband's brother, who loves everybody, doesn't like him and says he's not good for her. May have used the word dangerous, but I can't recall. Because he's a guy of honor and trash talks nobody, all he's said is he doesn't like him and they don't like being around them. We've also fielded a lot of texts from his sister about how they argue, she doesn't know if they're a good fit, he's scary when he argues, he doesn't care about her, etc etc.

I told my husband I think he's an alcoholic. I said I think he's having an affair (certain behaviors point to it when we're together... He spends his time on the phone when family is around, and we're there for a big family dinner and he leaves for "poker night" with the boys wearing a tee shirt and sweatpants). And I think at least he's verbally abusive. Maybe more. He's not good to the kids. Like, it's scary how not good he is. He doesn't have custody of his own kids from his previous marriage. Honestly, I think he's scary.

About a 3 weeks ago, they (my SIL and her BF) came up to our area to attend a graduation party for my husband's niece. They dropped into my husband's work, along with my husband's Aunt (who was clearly not happy). My SIL and her BF were both drunk. Really drunk. Keep in mind, they'd just driven 4 hours and it was only like 3pm. While at work, my husband introduced him to co-workers and a co-worker made a joking comment about SIL ("I always thought I was going to marry your sister" and they've never met, he was trying in a poor way to show that he's a friend as well as a co-worker). The boyfriend got really riled up "who is this guy? How do you know her? What's your problem? Are we about to have a problem?" and grabbed the co-worker. My husband said he was joking, at which point BF said "oh he's a kidder, he thinks he's a funny guy huh?" and bear hugged/picked up employee before wandering off. In the parking lot, while my husband was walking with them to see his aunt off, the BF yelled at a crying infant's mother ("won't somebody shut that f---ing kid up?") while his SIL laughed. My husband was mortified. When he was saying goodbye to his Aunt, my husband saw that the BF had walked to the front of the car, in full view of everybody in the parking lot, an adjacent parking lot, and a restaurant, had had exposed himself and began urinating in the parking lot. My husband was mortified, worried his bosses were seeing this, and apologized profusely to his aunt for their behavior... After all, she's supposed to be preparing for her daughter's graduation party (over 100 people were going to be there!) and she's escorting these folks around town on her errands.

My husband told me all this, he was mad. Really mad.

Well, last night, his sister texted saying that they're skipping a big wedding (which she really wanted) to elope in September. My husband, who's concerned about this guy, texts back "are you sure you're OK with this?" more as a discussion about eloping when she said she wanted a big family wedding. However, not unexpectedly (to me, anyway, my husband said he was surprised), she interpreted it to mean if she was sure she wanted to marry the guy. The resulting texts included some of the nastiest stuff I'd ever seen. She insulted our parenting (the incident with the diaper in the food isn't her fault because our kids don't have bedtime), talked about how because he's a bad father she's taking the other kids for the week next week (we had no idea... His ex set it up. We're on vacation next week and aren't in town), talked about how she's defended us to everybody when nobody in his family likes him or me, said that their mother and father and stepfather privately call me "the psycho" (it may be true, but I thought we were getting along...?), saying she has to "take care" of my husband's ex (no idea what that means), and how she's stepped in to help with the kids and supporting his ex "like he asked." He never asked... He frankly wants her to have less contact with his family. He believes she was drunk and texting. I'm not sure. He tends to assume she's drunk when he sees her, rightly or wrongly, and his mother believes she may be an alcoholic. He doesn't disagree.

I think the straw that broke the camels back is that she said something that's, for me, personally unforgivable... She said I "got pregnant when I shouldn't have" (we weren't married, his divorce was dragging out and wasn't legally final yet... No, it wasn't planned, but really? She got pregnant outside of wedlock too... And she had an affair that ended the marriage of the guy she's engaged to...), then she went on to say "and she was (victim of violent crime that I don't talk about to anybody ever). How does that happen to somebody? Mom and Dad are right, she is psycho."

Insert gut punch right there.

Now, nobody knows about this incident... I'm not sure how she knows. I suspect my husband's ex told her. The only reason she knows is complicated. Doesn't matter. The point is, it's something she threw in my husband's face as if I had control over it and it was my fault. Worse, it appears the whole family knows and has formulated an opinion. If the SIL knows, then everybody knows. She enjoys gossip.

So, I have a bunch of problems out of all of this:

1. My husband wants nothing to do with his sister anymore, especially while she's with this guy. Frankly, neither do I. This series of texts... I only included maybe 10% of what she said... It's just viciously cruel. Everything from implying he's abandoned his kids to I'm crazy to everybody hates him... The whole 9 yards. The thing is, to be close to his mother it means we've got to deal with her on some level. So how do we do that? Do we have to try and fix this? Wait for her to fix it? Do we have to be socially friendly? Or can we now legitimately be excused from even polite interaction with her?

Part of me says the best thing to do would be to suck grapes and get to a civil place with her... My family is close, we've never blown out where we don't talk to each other before and to do so seems foreign... But if anybody else insulted my husband and kids, I'd cut them off and out. And he feels the same about her insulting me in the most low way possible. I don't want to excuse what she said, or really even forgive it. My husband certainly doesn't either. But is fixing this the best way to go, even if it's simply "I'd rather have her as a friend than an enemy? I know she's trash talking us from here to eternity... Not that she wasn't anyway I think, but now we're on the poop list, she'll go into overdrive.

2. She says that the family hates me, calls me names, and wants nothing to do with me. While everybody but his father has been nice to me, it's not unbelievable that his mother is actually calling me names, trash talking me, etc etc. Should we bring this up with the her and figure out if there are still residual issues? Or should we chalk this up to his SIL being mean and nasty and perhaps fabricating the comments, which is also not exactly unbelievable. Should we let sleeping dogs lie on this and pretend we heard nothing? Frankly, when it gets down to it, I think only his mother and father could potentially feel that way, not his brother. The entire family but my SIL is out with my husband's father and there's no fixing that. But his mother? Should we talk to her?

3. It's now come to my attention that what I thought was a private incident that I struggled with for quite awhile is actually common knowledge among his family. I don't know if they know just the incident, or if they know everything that happened after, which was a struggle. An unflattering struggle. This is really, really, really hard for me. It's worse knowing that whatever version they got is certainly the worst version, as is evidenced by the fact that my SIL says it's proof I'm "psycho" and blames me for it happening. Honestly, the psycho label wouldn't be unearned post event... I had, and still have, PTSD and while I didn't do anything bad, embarrassing, or immoral, it wasn't my finest and any stories of incidents won't be flattering.

While I know his brother would never judge what happened badly, his religious mother and apparently his sister, and by extension her other half, almost certainly have. And honestly, it explains why her other half has treated me like he has in terms of over-affection to the point of nearly being a come on (if it's not an actual come on)... So what do I do? Do I confront this and explain what happened and risk hearing that their opinion hasn't changed? Or do I hope it does change? Or do I pretend I don't know that they know?

Honestly, it will be very hard to know they know and be around them. I feel anxious just thinking about our next meeting, which may be as soon as next week, where we'll probably see his brother, possibly his mother, and if we see her, certainly his sister and potentially her fiance... Who may be volatile over the incident... It goes without saying, my husband didn't take the accusations and comments and he responded with equal nastiness. I haven't seen the texts, but I can only imagine, and I expect he'll need to apologize for some of what he said regardless of what our relationship with his sister will be. Depending on how nasty he got, which I'm assuming the worst (his temper with his sister is bad and she really pushed some buttons), I expect her other half is equally mad. If we meet, a confrontation may be inevitable. Pairing that with the anxiety of the knowledge of this incident... I'm having problems.

So. What are people's thoughts? It's a lot, I know. I'm trying to be objective here, but at this point, I'm not sure if there's a means to be objective.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

The last I've heard was this morning. My husband's brother said "(SIL) was told what she needed to hear" by my husband and then he shared that about two hours into their niece's graduation party (the one where my SIL and her boyfriend were drunk at my husband's work), his aunt got so furious with them and others in the party and their behavior that she threw everybody, all 100 people, out of her house and the party was ruined. His sister loudly blamed us for this, despite us not being there, because my husband "called them out" to his aunt for their bad behavior in the parking lot which "turned her against them." She mentioned to my husband in the texts that it was his fault the party was ruined and he didn't know why, but now we know. Do I believe it's his fault? No... But that's what his sister is saying... But there's an example of how she tends to exaggerate.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

And sorry it's so long... There's a lot to the story. LoL!

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I've learned that there are toxic people on this planet, and even sometimes they are members of your family.

Toxic people are miserable and only live to make the rest of the world miserable.

I STRONGLY suggest you sever any contact with her. Forgive her if you need it (much like Christ forgave those who crucified him) but stay away from her.

I'm not sure how much stock you should put in to what she is saying about your husband's mother. It sounds a lot like she's just using other family members to deflect her own feelings. But if it bothers you enough, you can calmly ask his mom about it. Understand, though, that it might be opening another can of worms. His mom may feel stuck between a rock and a hard place and saying those things just be agreeable to the sister.

I pray stuff gets better for you.

 

[ex-pat]

Sorry, it sounded like you said this toxic woman and her BF have your husband's children for a week? If so, NOW, call Child and Family Services...these two do not scruple to drive drunk, or be drunk and abusive in their home. Do not let innocent children suffer for this. After that, of course, you can kiss any relationship with them goodbye, but it sounds like BF has some huge anger management issues, and is dangerous. Please don't let this be one of the news stories that ends up with "Family and friends all knew he had a violent criminal background, but no one interfered. The child's funeral will be private." Seen way too much of that, because no one speaks about this behaviour. She has her own kids, as well. Does ANYONE help them?

 

[mkgal1]

I wouldn't expect to be able to explain anything to this group, to where it would reconcile things. It really sounds as if they are in the habit of deflecting and placing all blame on others (like you described happening on the day of the graduation party).

What makes it such a sticky decision, though, is how the in-laws are all close with your husband's ex How old are the children? Is that even legal that someone else is caring for the children when you're on vacation, and you'd believed the ex was going to be caring for them?

Is there any way the kiddos can come with you on vacation? I wouldn't be trusting that couple to be caring for children (especially with any resentment between you).

And really......it's not about forgiving.....it's about trust (and they haven't given you much reason to have that....unfortunately). I just wonder if, in this case.....keeping enemies close has some validity.

 

[ValleyGal]

You and your husband have a good relationship, and it sounds like you talk about this openly. Have you laid out all your options, and worked out as many resulting scenarios as you can for each?

My own thinking if I were you: follow ex-pat's advice and report to your child protection agency. Let them know all of your concerns, including what SIL did with the 2 drunk fellows when she was babysitting for you. The child protection has the ability to conduct background criminal checks to see whether the bf should even be around children. Hopefully the CP will conduct a thorough investigation for the sake of your SIL's children as well. One thing to consider as well, is if your SIL is running with that kind of crowd, does she have a substance misuse issue as well?

Here's what I'd do next. Along with husband, make a list of who you do and who you do not want a relationship with. Do this together so you're on the same page. Then look at the list of who you do want a relationship with, and figure out what their relationships are like with those you do not want a relationship with. If you think their relationship with those on your not-list are so good that anything you say or do will be misconstrued to those on your not-list, cross them off the list of people you want a relationship with. Those kinds of relationships would not be safe.

Who is left on your list of those you want a relationship with? Talk with your husband about guidelines for a relationship with that person...guidelines that would make it a safe relationship with. For example, you might want to talk about non-disclosure type of content and avoid anything personal. Or you might keep it at an even shallower level by restricting the relationship to non-interactive social activities like going to a ball game or playing cards. The idea is to come up with some ideas of what would make a relationship with that person safe.

Remember the first priority in the situation is the safety of the children....followed by your own safety. Think about what and who is safe for your children - and why. Think about what and who is safe for you, your husband, and your marriage - and why. Think about relationships that are salvageable, and what would turn those unsafe relationships into safe ones (in the larger context of a gossipy family).

TW, I'm sorry there is so much going on in that family...sorry for you and for your husband. It is really hard to love and forgive really prickly people. So remember boundaries.

 

[akmom]

It sounds like there was a lot of sin on everyone's part. All you can do is move forward with the situation you have, and anyone's opinion of it is what it is (right or wrong). You need not concern yourself with what others think.

I think the Bible's answer to forgiveness is 70x7. So as a Christian, of course you should forgive her. That doesn't mean you have to trust her to care for your children again.

Still waters run deep.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

I've learned that there are toxic people on this planet, and even sometimes they are members of your family.

Toxic people are miserable and only live to make the rest of the world miserable.

I STRONGLY suggest you sever any contact with her. Forgive her if you need it (much like Christ forgave those who crucified him) but stay away from her.

I'm not sure how much stock you should put in to what she is saying about your husband's mother. It sounds a lot like she's just using other family members to deflect her own feelings. But if it bothers you enough, you can calmly ask his mom about it. Understand, though, that it might be opening another can of worms. His mom may feel stuck between a rock and a hard place and saying those things just be agreeable to the sister.

I pray stuff gets better for you.

Thanks for the great advice and prayers. Luckily, things aren't bad, even when people were being rude or mean... This is just a stumper of a problem. I don't know if I need to forgive, forget, accept her back into a circle because she's family, if I don't, if I encourage my husband to fix it, if I support his decision to not to, if I should confront what they know about me and this incident, let it go... And so it goes.

Tricky.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

Sorry, it sounded like you said this toxic woman and her BF have your husband's children for a week? If so, NOW, call Child and Family Services...these two do not scruple to drive drunk, or be drunk and abusive in their home. Do not let innocent children suffer for this. After that, of course, you can kiss any relationship with them goodbye, but it sounds like BF has some huge anger management issues, and is dangerous. Please don't let this be one of the news stories that ends up with "Family and friends all knew he had a violent criminal background, but no one interfered. The child's funeral will be private." Seen way too much of that, because no one speaks about this behaviour. She has her own kids, as well. Does ANYONE help them?

Oh no, no, no... To be clear, the kids are going to stay with their grandmother, his mother. And during that time, my husband's stepfather is there as well as my husband's other brother (who's in middle school), and my husband's brother with the oldest boy from his family. It's like a boy's week. I'm sure they'll see his sister, but not unsupervised. To our knowledge, my husband's sons with his ex do not spend time alone with his sister. If we knew they did, there would be hell to pay.

That said, his ex is on vacation this week with the kids and when she comes back, he's going to make clear he doesn't want his ex visiting his sister with the kids and he doesn't want the kids in her house. This will not go over well. I've suspected the ex and his sister are thick-as-thieves, not because they're genuine friends but they enjoy gossip, drama, and attention. My husband didn't think so, but I think now considering she knows something about me only the ex could have told her, I think he'll see now they are in close contact. I haven't had a chance to discuss it yet with him. Anyway, when he tells his ex, she'll probably ignore him, tell his sister, and it'll create huge issues.

But I'm not going to count tomorrows problems today. I'm just focusing on these issues. If it turns out the kids are there, we have no qualms about making the drive to get them and bring them home. If it's an issue, we can go to court.

She does have her own kids... I know one father is really, really involved, has remarried with a family, and the one child is super close with that family. With him, that child has a strong protector and advocate. If I remember right, he went on a family vacation, took his child with SIL, but also took the other child my SIL has (even though that child isn't his) along with them. Other father... Don't know about him. All I know is he doesn't pay child support and SIL texted my husband to text that father to demand he pay my SIL child support. He didn't. That's all I know about the other Dad.

And yes, those kids of hers do have advocates in my husband's brother. Like I said, he's in contention for sainthood and he often takes her kids as well as his minor brother for day trips, the weekend, or to stay when either his mother is having mental issues or when his sister is being... Herself. He's close to them in proximity and relationship and he's great at swooping in and taking them when they need to be taken and doing it in a way where neither SIL or his mom are insulted. He's a professional who works from home to be there for his kids, plus the other kids, has a stable household, even helps support his wife's brothers and father financially. I've never heard him raise a voice, much less speak ill of anybody. The worst I've heard was about the SIL's BF, where he said he didn't like him and may or may not have said he's dangerous. He's a good guy and in him he's a great barometer to what's going on down there. If things are bad or if he thinks the kids, any of them, are in a spot... He steps in.

The fact that SIL's BF doesn't like him... Another hint something isn't right with him. There's literally no way you could hate his brother. Even when he wasn't talking to us, we knew it wasn't because he had issues with us but because it would cause issues with his mother, who was having mental health episodes, and because he had personal family issues on his wife's side. There was just no room to invite us in on that, which I totally get.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

I wouldn't expect to be able to explain anything to this group, to where it would reconcile things. It really sounds as if they are in the habit of deflecting and placing all blame on others (like you described happening on the day of the graduation party).

What makes it such a sticky decision, though, is how the in-laws are all close with your husband's ex

I don't know that "close" is the word for it... His mother is nice to her because she'll come and bring the kids frequently to visit and she loves the grandkids. When she's having mental health issues, she regresses into devout Conservative Christian mode and declares she's his "true wife" and they're not divorced in the eyes of God... My husband's ex loves that. My husband's brother tolerates her because his wife is friendly with her, but he feels the trouble she causes when she comes or calls and the fact that she easily interjects herself (personally and financially) into their household means makes her more of a burden than a friend. Even his wife enjoys her from a distance and for short visits, but not for a long period of time. Like I said in the previous post, I think his sister likes her because they both like drama and gossip. I think they're friendly when they get things from each other, but the last time we saw his sister, she had no problem throwing his ex right under the bus (calling her crazy, a bad mother, etc). I think they have a co-dependent relationship but no loyalty.

How old are the children? Is that even legal that someone else is caring for the children when you're on vacation, and you'd believed the ex was going to be caring for them?

Is there any way the kiddos can come with you on vacation? I wouldn't be trusting that couple to be caring for children (especially with any resentment between you).

His kids with her are 5 and 7. When it comes to kids, the order said she's *supposed* to tell us if they're going away and give us first option to watch them. That didn't happen here. They usually go to stay with their grandmother one week of the summer, so I think we assumed it was happening, but we didn't know when. And like I said above, the kids are with Grandma and Uncle, not SIL. Sorry for the confusion.

We're thinking that we may cancel the vacation and take the kids for the week regardless. It occured to me that when this fight blows back to his mother, who'll only get SIL's version, it's going to cause problems which may trigger an episode. So we won't want the kids there for that. I'll talk it over with my husband. If we say no and take them, it's sure to cause a lot of problems, which we don't mind, but I want to be prepared.

And really......it's not about forgiving.....it's about trust (and they haven't given you much reason to have that....unfortunately). I just wonder if, in this case.....keeping enemies close has some validity.

That's my wonder too. Clearly she's selling us out now when we thought we were on OK terms, is it worth it getting worse especially when her BF is on the scene and prone to being volatile. It may be best to suck grapes, make the relationship functional, and not have to deal with his unpredictability.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

You and your husband have a good relationship, and it sounds like you talk about this openly. Have you laid out all your options, and worked out as many resulting scenarios as you can for each?

Not yet. I think for him this issue with the low shot about my incident, the kids, and him in general, I think he's ready to cut ties, be done, not deal with her again and that's that. I'm just trying to figure out if telling him that he should keep some sort of relationship with her, simply because she's his sister, and because this marriage wont' last. I don't want him to regret shutting her out even if she's a person with issues... Issues that, if he leaves, she leaves, and/or she gets help for substance abuse may be resolved.

My own thinking if I were you: follow ex-pat's advice and report to your child protection agency. Let them know all of your concerns, including what SIL did with the 2 drunk fellows when she was babysitting for you. The child protection has the ability to conduct background criminal checks to see whether the bf should even be around children. Hopefully the CP will conduct a thorough investigation for the sake of your SIL's children as well. One thing to consider as well, is if your SIL is running with that kind of crowd, does she have a substance misuse issue as well?

He's in high level law enforcement. I suspect he's clean on the background. And I think since he's in the courts now for his divorce that if his ex had raised concerns about child safety, something would be in place that applies to my SIL's kids too.

And yes, my husband thinks she's an alcoholic.

Here's what I'd do next. Along with husband, make a list of who you do and who you do not want a relationship with. Do this together so you're on the same page. Then look at the list of who you do want a relationship with, and figure out what their relationships are like with those you do not want a relationship with. If you think their relationship with those on your not-list are so good that anything you say or do will be misconstrued to those on your not-list, cross them off the list of people you want a relationship with. Those kinds of relationships would not be safe.

Who is left on your list of those you want a relationship with? Talk with your husband about guidelines for a relationship with that person...guidelines that would make it a safe relationship with. For example, you might want to talk about non-disclosure type of content and avoid anything personal. Or you might keep it at an even shallower level by restricting the relationship to non-interactive social activities like going to a ball game or playing cards. The idea is to come up with some ideas of what would make a relationship with that person safe.

I like this idea.

Remember the first priority in the situation is the safety of the children....followed by your own safety. Think about what and who is safe for your children - and why. Think about what and who is safe for you, your husband, and your marriage - and why. Think about relationships that are salvageable, and what would turn those unsafe relationships into safe ones (in the larger context of a gossipy family).

TW, I'm sorry there is so much going on in that family...sorry for you and for your husband. It is really hard to love and forgive really prickly people. So remember boundaries.

Thank you very much.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

It sounds like there was a lot of sin on everyone's part. All you can do is move forward with the situation you have, and anyone's opinion of it is what it is (right or wrong). You need not concern yourself with what others think.

I think the Bible's answer to forgiveness is 70x7. So as a Christian, of course you should forgive her. That doesn't mean you have to trust her to care for your children again.

Still waters run deep.

She won't watch the kids again, for sure. I just don't know about the family relationship, if it should be fixed, and how to handle the issue that she knows and has spread some personal information about a touchy incident that I don't know how to address... But I've gotten some great ideas.

 

[Odetta]

Personally, I wouldn't have anything to do with SIL - not because she's a (probable) alcoholic who makes bad choices, but because she is malicious and acts with intent to hurt you. That should not be tolerated for the sake of other relationships, because she will poison those relationships. She's already done it, actually, from what you've written.

 

[ValleyGal]

Not yet. I think for him this issue with the low shot about my incident, the kids, and him in general, I think he's ready to cut ties, be done, not deal with her again and that's that. I'm just trying to figure out if telling him that he should keep some sort of relationship with her, simply because she's his sister, and because this marriage wont' last. I don't want him to regret shutting her out even if she's a person with issues... Issues that, if he leaves, she leaves, and/or she gets help for substance abuse may be resolved.

I had to cut ties with my sister. Omygoodness, I had tolerated soooo much, but when it became evident that she was having a huge negative impact on my son and his trust in me, I put my foot down. She treated me like dirt, but NO ONE comes between me and my son. I would feel the same way if it were her trying to come between me and my husband, too. So I can really understand where your husband is coming from.

I still have a relationship with my mom - who also has a relationship with my sister. But I laid it out: she is NOT welcome to talk about me to my sister, and I will NOT go crawling back to my sister looking for a relationship. It took me years and years to rebuild my relationship with my son as a result of her actions. However, mom knows that if my sister wants to reconcile with me, she is welcome to come and take full responsibility for the way she treated us....both of us AND my parental authority. If I find her to be sincere in her attempt at reconciliation, I may spend time in her presence, but I would have zero trust, and would never disclose anything personal about me or my family. There would be a very big wall and a very small window, with a double-pane window and a screen.

So the door is closed from my perspective, but I am open if she ever chooses to reconcile. I've spent enough of my life trying to have a halfway decent relationship with her. It's her turn. Hopefully by the time she is ready to (if ever), she will have learned some people skills and humility.

None of that is to say I do not love her. She has a condition that may eventually require a lung or kidney transplant. If that is ever the case, I will be the first in line to ask to be tested. I care about her and her life, but I can only really love her from a great distance.

So back to you. If your husband is ready to cut the ties, hold his hand while he makes the cut. But also encourage him that if she ever wants to reconcile and she will actually own up to her part in all that's happened, that it's okay to hope for that reconciliation and be open to it if it ever happens.

 

[ex-pat]

Oh no, no, no... To be clear, the kids are going to stay with their grandmother, his mother. And during that time, my husband's stepfather is there as well as my husband's other brother (who's in middle school), and my husband's brother with the oldest boy from his family. It's like a boy's week. I'm sure they'll see his sister, but not unsupervised. To our knowledge, my husband's sons with his ex do not spend time alone with his sister. If we knew they did, there would be hell to pay.

That said, his ex is on vacation this week with the kids and when she comes back, he's going to make clear he doesn't want his ex visiting his sister with the kids and he doesn't want the kids in her house. This will not go over well. I've suspected the ex and his sister are thick-as-thieves, not because they're genuine friends but they enjoy gossip, drama, and attention. My husband didn't think so, but I think now considering she knows something about me only the ex could have told her, I think he'll see now they are in close contact. I haven't had a chance to discuss it yet with him. Anyway, when he tells his ex, she'll probably ignore him, tell his sister, and it'll create huge issues.

But I'm not going to count tomorrows problems today. I'm just focusing on these issues. If it turns out the kids are there, we have no qualms about making the drive to get them and bring them home. If it's an issue, we can go to court.

She does have her own kids... I know one father is really, really involved, has remarried with a family, and the one child is super close with that family. With him, that child has a strong protector and advocate. If I remember right, he went on a family vacation, took his child with SIL, but also took the other child my SIL has (even though that child isn't his) along with them. Other father... Don't know about him. All I know is he doesn't pay child support and SIL texted my husband to text that father to demand he pay my SIL child support. He didn't. That's all I know about the other Dad.

And yes, those kids of hers do have advocates in my husband's brother. Like I said, he's in contention for sainthood and he often takes her kids as well as his minor brother for day trips, the weekend, or to stay when either his mother is having mental issues or when his sister is being... Herself. He's close to them in proximity and relationship and he's great at swooping in and taking them when they need to be taken and doing it in a way where neither SIL or his mom are insulted. He's a professional who works from home to be there for his kids, plus the other kids, has a stable household, even helps support his wife's brothers and father financially. I've never heard him raise a voice, much less speak ill of anybody. The worst I've heard was about the SIL's BF, where he said he didn't like him and may or may not have said he's dangerous. He's a good guy and in him he's a great barometer to what's going on down there. If things are bad or if he thinks the kids, any of them, are in a spot... He steps in.

The fact that SIL's BF doesn't like him... Another hint something isn't right with him. There's literally no way you could hate his brother. Even when he wasn't talking to us, we knew it wasn't because he had issues with us but because it would cause issues with his mother, who was having mental health episodes, and because he had personal family issues on his wife's side. There was just no room to invite us in on that, which I totally get.

WHEW!!!! Glad to hear that..you had me worried, there! Agree with others...forgive, but don't forget for one minute.

 

[DZoolander]

I can relate to a good extent. Most of my teenage years were spent learning how quarantine my mom into areas of my life where I was comfortable having her. We had an interesting dynamic...I mean...I loved her to death...and I have no doubt that she loved me. But - truth be told - anything that went wrong in my life was absolutely, undeniably, my fault in her eyes.

Heck - I remember getting paddled in school one time as a kid. When she found out - she and my dad sent flowers to the teacher for taking the initiative to discipline me. Fact is that I deserved it (lol) - but - just goes to show how things went.

When I went through my divorce - for about a year and a half it was a constantly repeating record about how "I ought to fix what I did wrong - make amends - tell her I'm sorry - etc". Of course - I played into that because I didn't tell her what was going on (for a variety of reasons that aren't really relevant here - but from a 1000 ft view I questioned my own resolve - and the LAST thing I needed to do was introduce THAT into the mix with my mom if I made the decision to reconcile). But still - it played into the over-arching narrative of how I had screwed something up.

Heck - I remember after she passed - I found list upon list she'd written down over the years of "What's wrong with E" - itemizing every shortcoming she thought I had.

I can only imagine how things would have played out if I had chosen to get involved with someone during that interim period before she finally accepted that maybe I had just cause to leave. So, I feel for you and your husband on that. I can only imagine what it must have been like for all that time.

The SIL sounds like a real piece of work. Thankfully that's outside of the scope of my experience - but if I had come into some situation where my drunk sibling (and two drunk randoms) were tossing my toddler daughter scraps - I can tell you there would've been violence. There would've been two drunken fools nursing broken noses on the ground outside of the apartment - one drunken bewildered sibling (with a broken nose as well if it had been my brother...not sure how I'd have reacted to my sister doing that) - and my daughter/wife immediately in the car.

I can feel for why you guys kept talking to them...hope springs eternal and you really do want to work things out with family. It's also a lot of work - both for your husband and for you (on different levels).

Knowing, though, how much family matters, I'm kinda remiss to give any advice on what to do. I mean - there's what I think you and your husband should do, but the problem is that it's advice removed from the situation and really it's all contingent upon what kind of stand you both are prepared to take relative to the situation.

That being said - the sister sounds like a total douche. Everything with her sounds toxic.
The mom, ehhh, if there are mental issues going on there, that's a hard one. My mom had OCD stuff and other propensities - so I learned to grant a lot of leeway there despite things that were hurtful. After all - that was mom. If she was being a douche to my wife though, there would've been some "come to Jesus" moments.

... blech.

 

[Autumnleaf]

Always forgive. Always love them. Always set boundaries so you can discreetly drop out of their lives when its time to, for as long as you feel you need to.

 

[Angeldove97]

My Mother went through major drama with my Uncle while their Mother was dying. Best thing my Mom ever did was cut ties with that part of the family- my Uncle and Aunt. They've never been supportive and how they treated my Grandmother speaks volumes about what kind of people they are.

If they don't help you grow as a person, I would cut them out of your life. To me, they have no intentions of learning to love you or your family the way you all deserve.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

One thing I've learned is that forgiving a person doesn't mean continuing to put up with their abuse. Just because you do cut ties doesn't mean you haven't forgiven, so once that's done, don't let anybody judge you or call you unforgiving.