How exactly was John the Baptist somehow Elijah????

[daq]

I have to wonder if the soul of Elijah…. and the soul of John the Baptist…. in one sense was an "angel" a being that existed long before either Elijah or John the Baptist?

Little Colton Burpo reports that King David, Samson, John the Baptist and Mary his mother were all there with Jesus in heaven in "Heaven is for Real"… but this would not rule the idea of the consciousness, identity and memories of John the Baptist having been recorded on an "angel" who may have volunteered to come down to the earth as John the Baptist.

The same angel could also have been used to record the personality, identity and memories of Elijah.

(Ecclesiastes 3:11)

Eliyahu is a Spirit and "little Colton Burpo" has not seen him.

Numbers 11:16-17
16. And the Lord said unto Moses, Gather unto me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom thou knowest to be the elders of the people, and officers over them; and bring them unto the ohel moed, that they may stand there with thee.
17. And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the Spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with thee, that thou bear it not thyself alone.

Numbers 11:25-29
25. And the Lord came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the Spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the Spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, but they did so no more.
26. And there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the Spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tent: and they prophesied in the camp.
27. And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp.
28. And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, Adoniy Moses, forbid them.
29. And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord's people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his Spirit upon them!

6 x 12 = 72

 

[DennisTate]

Eliyahu is a Spirit and "little Colton Burpo" has not seen him.

Numbers 11:16-17
16. And the Lord said unto Moses, Gather unto me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom thou knowest to be the elders of the people, and officers over them; and bring them unto the ohel moed, that they may stand there with thee.
17. And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the Spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with thee, that thou bear it not thyself alone.

Numbers 11:25-29
25. And the Lord came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the Spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the Spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, but they did so no more.
26. And there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the Spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tent: and they prophesied in the camp.
27. And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp.
28. And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, Adoniy Moses, forbid them.
29. And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord's people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his Spirit upon them!

6 x 12 = 72

Daq....... what would you recommend as a good way to "appease the wrath of the LORD?"


Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible, Ecclesiasticus Chapter 48

"And Elias the prophet stood up, as a fire, and his word burnt like a torch. ......Who heardest judgment in Sina, and in Horeb the judgments of vengeance. [8] Who anointedst kings to penance, and madest prophets successors after thee. [9] Who wast taken up in a whirlwind of fire, in a chariot of fiery horses. [10] Who art registered in the judgments of times to appease the wrath of the Lord, to reconcile the heart of the father to the son, and to restore the tribes of Jacob. "http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=26&ch=48&l=2#x

 

[daq]

Daq....... what would you recommend as a good way to "appease the wrath of the LORD?"


Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible, Ecclesiasticus Chapter 48

"And Elias the prophet stood up, as a fire, and his word burnt like a torch. ......Who heardest judgment in Sina, and in Horeb the judgments of vengeance. [8] Who anointedst kings to penance, and madest prophets successors after thee. [9] Who wast taken up in a whirlwind of fire, in a chariot of fiery horses. [10] Who art registered in the judgments of times to appease the wrath of the Lord, to reconcile the heart of the father to the son, and to restore the tribes of Jacob. "

1) Repent-teshuvah and be immersed in all the words written through Yochanan the Immerser.
2) Kiss the Son lest he be just a little angry and you perish from the Way, (honor his Testimony).
3) Conclusion of the whole matter: Fear-reverence-worship the Father and keep his commandments.

 

[daq]

Hi Dennis, I suppose I should add a couple more to the above:

4) Judge not, so that you be not judged: for with what judgment you judge, you also shall be judged, and with what measure you mete out, the same shall be measured out to you. Therefore all things whatsoever you would that men should do unto you, do you likewise unto them: for this is the Torah and the prophets.
5) Forgive others their debts and trespasses: for if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your heavenly Father forgive your trespasses. It is as plain and simple as that, just as Yeshua stated it, and this is the royal law and law of liberty. If you fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself", you do well. But if you have respect to persons, you commit sin, and are convinced of the law as a transgressor. So speak, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For the one who shows no mercy shall likewise receive judgment without mercy, (for what is "belief" without faithfulness? the devils also believe, and tremble, but the tree is known by its fruit).
6) As for the writings of Yochanan the Immerser, the greatest of men having been born of women from among the prophets; blessed is he that reads that book, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and those who keep those things which are written therein.

 

[BukiRob]

Hi Dennis, I suppose I should add a couple more to the above:

4) Judge not, so that you be not judged: for with what judgment you judge, you also shall be judged, and with what measure you mete out, the same shall be measured out to you. Therefore all things whatsoever you would that men should do unto you, do you likewise unto them: for this is the Torah and the prophets.
5) Forgive others their debts and trespasses: for if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your heavenly Father forgive your trespasses. It is as plain and simple as that, just as Yeshua stated it, and this is the royal law and law of liberty. If you fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself", you do well. But if you have respect to persons, you commit sin, and are convinced of the law as a transgressor. So speak, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For the one who shows no mercy shall likewise receive judgment without mercy, (for what is "belief" without faithfulness? the devils also believe, and tremble, but the tree is known by its fruit).
6) As for the writings of Yochanan the Immerser, the greatest of men having been born of women from among the prophets; blessed is he that reads that book, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and those who keep those things which are written therein.

Amen! Its all right there in John In the beginning was the Word. What word? See to the vast majority of those believers who attend Sunday church the word is the NT. The very serious problem with that interpretation is the NT DID NOT EXIST when John penned those words. Therefore, even though that position is true, that is NOT what John is talking about! And it could not be since the NT did not exist when John is writing these words. The Word John speaks of is the Torah!! So we learn a few verses down that the Word/Torah became flesh and dwelt among us.

This makes the teaching that the Torah is to be ignored an irreconcilable position because to reject Torah is to reject Messiah!!!! Yeshua in many places says "If you love me you will keep my commandments!" He is speaking to Jews and contrary to what is largely being taught Yeshua IS talking about keeping the commandments of G-d found in the Torah!

 

[Shimshon]

Amen! Its all right there in John In the beginning was the Word. What word? See to the vast majority of those believers who attend Sunday church the word is the NT. The very serious problem with that interpretation is the NT DID NOT EXIST when John penned those words. Therefore, even though that position is true, that is NOT what John is talking about! And it could not be since the NT did not exist when John is writing these words. The Word John speaks of is the Torah!! So we learn a few verses down that the Word/Torah became flesh and dwelt among us.

This makes the teaching that the Torah is to be ignored an irreconcilable position because to reject Torah is to reject Messiah!!!! Yeshua in many places says "If you love me you will keep my commandments!" He is speaking to Jews and contrary to what is largely being taught Yeshua IS talking about keeping the commandments of G-d found in the Torah!

So do you also believe that the Torah is revealed and administered in a more perfect way than before? Do you believe it has been transformed into that which it was promised to be?

Or are you saying that Messiah came to reinstitute the exact ministry given through Moses? See, this is actually a very crucial point many seem to side-step when they see "if you love me you will keep my commandments'.

Point being, are we to kill the false prophets and refuse them to live? And do we destroy the city that has forsaken God to worship another, never to rebuild it? And more to the point, do we put to death those who reject Messiah's words?

Are you really telling people that all these things are commanded of us, here in this place?

Yes, Torah is fullfilled in those who receive the Spirit of God through faith in Messiah. Because the lawgiver has come to live within us, as opposed to among us.

Tell you what, I will applaud your love and devotion to Torah, amen! As long as you can admit that it has been revealed to us in a more fuller way through Yeshua Messiah. Meaning it has been transformed like a branch in springtime. The leaves are sprouting, and then, the transformation of the fruit comes. Then, it transforms back to a bare branch. Same tree, no? Different stages of being throughout the years, no?

A Rabbi that I used to share fellowship with recently put it this way to me.

it is continually re-applied and interpreted within every generation. Not that it is now something completely different,....... it is also not the same thing.

The "New Covenant" is not the replacement of, but rather the renewal of, and a greater intensification and internalization of the Torah through the Living Torah, Yeshua the Messiah.

Although there may be emendations to the Sinai covenant as a result of this renewal through Yeshua, those emendations do not do away with the entirety of the Torah. In fact, obligatory observance of the Torah is assumed throughout the New Testament for Jewish followers of Yeshua (as well as the decision of non-obligatory observance for Gentile followers of Yeshua).

 

[BukiRob]

So do you also believe that the Torah is revealed and administered in a more perfect way than before? Do you believe it has been transformed into that which it was promised to be?

Or are you saying that Messiah came to re-institute the exact ministry given through Moses? See, this is actually a very crucial point many seem to side-step when they see "if you love me you will keep my commandments'.

Point being, are we to kill the false prophets and refuse them to live? And do we destroy the city that has forsaken God to worship another, never to rebuild it? And more to the point, do we put to death those who reject Messiah's words?

Are you really telling people that all these things are commanded of us, here in this place?

Yes, Torah is fulfilled in those who receive the Spirit of God through faith in Messiah. Because the lawgiver has come to live within us, as opposed to among us.

Tell you what, I will applaud your love and devotion to Torah, amen! As long as you can admit that it has been revealed to us in a more fuller way through Yeshua Messiah. Meaning it has been transformed like a branch in springtime. The leaves are sprouting, and then, the transformation of the fruit comes. Then, it transforms back to a bare branch. Same tree, no? Different stages of being throughout the years, no?

A Rabbi that I used to share fellowship with recently put it this way to me.

Messiah came to re-institue it. To give it further clarification. We see this because he vilifies the scribes and pharisee's because they add and subtract from the law, placing higher esteem their "fences" around the law and miss the entire intent of (or the spirit of) the law.

I liken this to the decree that James gave concerning what to do with the Gentiles in Acts 15 when he states that they should abstain from certain actions (the weightier sins dealing with Idolatry) and he finishes his pronouncement (and MANY conveniently ignore) For from the earliest times, Moshe has had in every city those who proclaim him, with his words being read in the synagogues every Shabbat.”

James is saying they'll learn the rest over time when they are in synagogue on Shabbat.....

 

[Shimshon]

Messiah came to re-institue it. To give it further clarification. We see this because he vilifies the scribes and pharisee's because they add and subtract from the law, placing higher esteem their "fences" around the law and miss the entire intent of (or the spirit of) the law.

I liken this to the decree that James gave concerning what to do with the Gentiles in Acts 15 when he states that they should abstain from certain actions (the weightier sins dealing with Idolatry) and he finishes his pronouncement (and MANY conveniently ignore) For from the earliest times, Moshe has had in every city those who proclaim him, with his words being read in the synagogues every Shabbat.”

James is saying they'll learn the rest over time when they are in synagogue on Shabbat.....

But none of what you said addressed the questions I presented.

Point being, are we to kill the false prophets and refuse them to live? And do we destroy the city that has forsaken God to worship another, never to rebuild it?

And more to the point, do we put to death those who reject Messiah's words?

Are you really telling people that all these things are commanded of us, here in this place?

are you saying that Messiah came to reinstitute the exact ministry given through Moses? See, this is actually a very crucial point many seem to side-step when they see "if you love me you will keep my commandments'.

I'm more interested in how one understands how these commands apply to them in the new covenant made through Yeshua Messiah. Do you have any comments on what my Rabbi friend has stated about the continual revealing of Torah throughout the ages? Can you elaborate on how it has been further clarified?

 

[BukiRob]

But none of what you said addressed the questions I presented.

I'm more interested in how one understands how these commands apply to them in the new covenant made through Yeshua Messiah. Do you have any comments on what my Rabbi friend has stated about the continual revealing of Torah throughout the ages? Can you elaborate on how it has been further clarified?

I did say that Yeshua came to re-institute and clarify. He was constantly vilifying the scribes and pharisee's for their twisting, adding and subtracting from what G-d decreed.

Point being, are we to kill the false prophets and refuse them to live? And do we destroy the city that has forsaken God to worship another, never to rebuild it? And more to the point, do we put to death those who reject Messiah's words?

We are not currently inhabiting the land so no, we ought not do this

Tell you what, I will applaud your love and devotion to Torah, amen! As long as you can admit that it has been revealed to us in a more fuller way through Yeshua Messiah. Meaning it has been transformed like a branch in springtime. The leaves are sprouting, and then, the transformation of the fruit comes. Then, it transforms back to a bare branch. Same tree, no? Different stages of being throughout the years, no?

A Rabbi that I used to share fellowship with recently put it this way to me.

I will take it a step further. Yeshua IS the Torah. John says In the beginning was the word. John is clearly speaking of the Hebrew Scriptures here....

 

[Shimshon]

We are not currently inhabiting the land so no, we ought not do this

When we get back to the land, we will do those things then?

Did Messiah make it that we are not in the land? Did he not send us out? See, what i'm trying to express is, many say 'if you love me you will keep my commandments', and refer to it as though Messiah was teaching all to observe everything commanded through Moses, because well, he's now given us a Spirit to do so. But the fact remains that it was by Messiah's doing that we are NOT able to operate the Torah the way it was given Moses. As you said, no land.

Now, I will take this one step further. No priesthood. How will we observe the Torah when Messiah comes back as High Priest in the order of Melchizedek? Will not the levitial order dealing with blood and death have passed away? No sin and all....

My whole point is Torah transforms, like a living being. It's not a static thing, it's alive. Yisrael is a static entity. But her Torah is a living breathing entity, called Yeshua Messiah. And like a tree Torah grows and is revealed to it's people continually. The Rabbi's knew and spoke of this. So I'm only trying to make this 'if you love me keep my commandments' understood in a more Jewish light, than Messianic. Who usually say KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS! and then don't communicate to those they say this to that the commands are 'further revealed' in the 'light' of Yeshua.

Like the ark become our bodies. Many seem to only relate to the physical world and eliminate any Spiritual ramifications that relate to it.

The law is spiritual, no? Romans 7:14

Torah is revealed through Messiah. And it is not ministered in the same way as the Torah reavealed through Moses. Torah! Yes! As revealed by Yeshua Messiah, who renewed and reapplied as was promised to our fathers.

Continually re-applied and interpreted within every generation. Not that it is now something completely different,....... it is also not the same thing. The "New Covenant" is not the replacement of, but rather the renewal of, and a greater intensification and internalization of the Torah through the Living Torah, Yeshua the Messiah.

Do you beleive preisthood in the Torah given Moshe has been transformed? Do you believe Messiah gave a more revealing expression of Torah than was given before?

 

[BukiRob]

When we get back to the land, we will do those things then?

Did Messiah make it that we are not in the land? Did he not send us out? See, what i'm trying to express is, many say 'if you love me you will keep my commandments', and refer to it as though Messiah was teaching all to observe everything commanded through Moses, because well, he's now given us a Spirit to do so. But the fact remains that it was by Messiah's doing that we are NOT able to operate the Torah the way it was given Moses. As you said, no land.

Now, I will take this one step further. No priesthood. How will we observe the Torah when Messiah comes back as High Priest in the order of Melchizedek? Will not the levitial order dealing with blood and death have passed away? No sin and all....

My whole point is Torah transforms, like a living being. It's not a static thing, it's alive. Yisrael is a static entity. But her Torah is a living breathing entity, called Yeshua Messiah. And like a tree Torah grows and is revealed to it's people continually. The Rabbi's knew and spoke of this. So I'm only trying to make this 'if you love me keep my commandments' understood in a more Jewish light, than Messianic. Who usually say KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS! and then don't communicate to those they say this to that the commands are 'further revealed' in the 'light' of Yeshua.

Like the ark become our bodies. Many seem to only relate to the physical world and eliminate any Spiritual ramifications that relate to it.

The law is spiritual, no? Romans 7:14

Torah is revealed through Messiah. And it is not ministered in the same way as the Torah revealed through Moses. Torah! Yes! As revealed by Yeshua Messiah, who renewed and reapplied as was promised to our fathers.

Continually re-applied and interpreted within every generation. Not that it is now something completely different,....... it is also not the same thing. The "New Covenant" is not the replacement of, but rather the renewal of, and a greater intensification and internalization of the Torah through the Living Torah, Yeshua the Messiah.

Do you believe priesthood in the Torah given Moshe has been transformed? Do you believe Messiah gave a more revealing expression of Torah than was given before?

I completely agree. Yeshua is the living Torah. The Gospel does not replace Torah because Yeshua is the Torah.

Of course the Priesthood has changed we have a High Priest name Yeshua we have no need of the earthly priesthood.

Gentiles are sons by adoption and Jews are sons by covenant. There is no distinction between Jew and Gentile spiritually because G-d so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son....

If I partake of the blessings given to the natural sons and I am grafted in to the original olive tree I have the same commandments to follow as the natural son.

Yeshua says if you love me keep my commandments. That applies to ALL of his children.

 

[Shimshon]

I have the same commandments to follow as the natural son.

So in your understanding any levite could enter the holy of holies? What was given the cohen hagadol to do was also commanded to be carried out by the levi'im?

Can a grafted in branch produce the fruit of the natural tree? If I graft in an orange branch into a grapefruit tree it will begin to produce grapefruits, or continue producing oranges?

In this same way, the wild olive branches don’t become natural branches simply because they are engrafted. This is physically impossible. Rather, the text has to do with partaking in the promises made to Avraham Avinu (Abraham our father). We are serving the same God, operating under the same covenant, under the blood of the same Messiah, being fed by the same root, as two distinct branches (peoples). Our source of life is the same!


Gentiles receive the promise given Abraham, namely Messiah. The same promise given Abraham's physical seed is offered to those not of his seed. But it makes them children of Abraham 'through faith', not through becoming a natural branch.

 

[Shimshon]

What we see again is that the "stumbling", and consequent "breaking off" of individual Jews, allowed for the inclusion of non-Jews into God’s covenantal promises to Avraham. But they are warned earlier in the text that they have an obligation to fulfill as a result; and that is to help bring about the restoration of Yisra’el through their inclusion and fruit-bearing. I say "fruit-bearing" because it is well known that uncultivated, wild olive trees bore no useful fruit. What we see according to Rabbi Paul’s model is that only after they are grafted into the household of Yisra’el are non-Jews enabled to bear fruit for the Kingdom. However, if there is arrogance or pride when it comes to the new position, and the wild branches in any way look down upon the currently broken-off branches, they too will suffer the same fate. You (non-Jews) are only in your current position due to God’s grace.

 

[BukiRob]

So in your understanding any levite could enter the holy of holies? What was given the cohen hagadol to do was also commanded to be carried out by the levi'im?

Never said that.

Can a grafted in branch produce the fruit of the natural tree? If I graft in an orange branch into a grapefruit tree it will begin to produce grapefruits, or continue producing oranges?

In this same way, the wild olive branches don’t become natural branches simply because they are engrafted. This is physically impossible. Rather, the text has to do with partaking in the promises made to Avraham Avinu (Abraham our father). We are serving the same God, operating under the same covenant, under the blood of the same Messiah, being fed by the same root, as two distinct branches (peoples). Our source of life is the same!


Gentiles receive the promise given Abraham, namely Messiah. The same promise given Abraham's physical seed is offered to those not of his seed. But it makes them children of Abraham 'through faith', not through becoming a natural branch.

Never said they become a natural branch. I said, that as a gentile (though I am convinced through family history my roots are Ashkenazi Jews. Since we cant trace it maternally we are excluded as being Jewish....) The Torah is for believers. Why is it you are in such a rush to deny me the blessing afforded with keeping Torah?

 

[Shimshon]

Never said that.


Never said they become a natural branch. I said, that as a gentile (though I am convinced through family history my roots are Ashkenazi Jews. Since we cant trace it maternally we are excluded as being Jewish....) The Torah is for believers. Why is it you are in such a rush to deny me the blessing afforded with keeping Torah?

I'm not denying any blessings from you. And I'm not denying that gentiles should respect and identify with Torah. Definitly they should understand how it applies to them. ESPECIALLY in light of Messiah Yeshua and the new covenant.

I'm hoping to get you to truly express the Torah from the perspective of the existing Messianic Jewish community, as opposed to the newly invented Messianic ministries of late that call Jews racist for holding on to that which defines 'us'. In our understanding gentiles are to come along side us to help restore us, not to become us. In this way they will further the blessing upon themselves. Namely by working along side Messiah to restore the fortunes of Yisrael.


What blessing is there for you when keep Torah? Will God keep you in the land if you do so? We are blessed because we keep it? Or are we blessed because we believe in Messiah? From my understanding More than the Jews have kept Torah, Torah has kept the Jews. This is a play on the famous quote from Ahad Ha’Am.

ALL our blessing is in Messiah, not through Torah keeping. Do you not see how you get mistaken for saying your keeping Torah is the reason you receive the blessing of Messiah? That is what i'm in a rush to address here. It is a tree of life for all who 'grasp' it. Our blessing was promised to Avraham, to come outside of the law. Not through observing the law. The Torah keeps us, we do not keep it, except in Messiah, when the Spirit of God dwells within us we are keeping Torah to a tee.

 

[BukiRob]

I'm not denying any blessings from you. And I'm not denying that gentiles should respect and identify with Torah. Definitly they should understand how it applies to them. ESPECIALLY in light of Messiah Yeshua and the new covenant.

I'm hoping to get you to truly express the Torah from the perspective of the existing Messianic Jewish community, as opposed to the newly invented Messianic ministries of late that call Jews racist for holding on to that which defines 'us'. In our understanding gentiles are to come along side us to help restore us, not to become us. In this way they will further the blessing upon themselves. Namely by working along side Messiah to restore the fortunes of Yisrael.


What blessing is there for you when keep Torah? Will God keep you in the land if you do so? We are blessed because we keep it? Or are we blessed because we believe in Messiah? From my understanding More than the Jews have kept Torah, Torah has kept the Jews. This is a play on the famous quote from Ahad Ha’Am.

ALL our blessing is in Messiah, not through Torah keeping. Do you not see how you get mistaken for saying your keeping Torah is the reason you receive the blessing of Messiah? That is what i'm in a rush to address here. It is a tree of life for all who 'grasp' it. Our blessing was promised to Avraham, to come outside of the law. Not through observing the law. The Torah keeps us, we do not keep it, except in Messiah, when the Spirit of God dwells within us we are keeping Torah to a tee.

Yeshua is the Torah. He is the living breathing Torah. If I am following him I am to be doing the things he did. He kept the Torah, he was obedient to the Father.

The blessing of keeping Torah they are littered all through it... Wisdom, length of days, discretion. Torah blessing that the labor of my hands will be blessed.

Are you trying to argue that the promises declared in the Torah are null and void because the Torah became flesh and dwelt among us? May it never be so!

I am saying that if you do not keep Torah you remove the opportunity to receive the benefits and blessings afforded by being an obedient son or daughter.

If you fail to give, how can you receive? If you do not give then how can it be given unto you, press down, shaken and over flowing?

Likewise, if I say I believe in Messiah and declare that the Torah/Law is done away with, then I can NOT receive all the potential blessings/benefits granted to those who do.

Torah observance grants WISDOM and Discretion. All believers who engage in walking upright and obedient are granted these. Among other blessings annotated are length of days and the blessing of the fruit of my hands/labor.

If I fail to walk upright (by walking in obedience) I forfeit those blessing

 

[Shimshon]

I've never said the Torah is done away with have I? So don't go there.

Yet, what you said reminds me of this;

John 5
39http://www.biblestudytools.com/esv/john/passage.aspx?q=john+5:34-44#cr-descriptionAnchor-12You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and http://www.biblestudytools.com/esv/john/passage.aspx?q=john+5:34-44#cr-descriptionAnchor-13it is they that bear witness about me,40yet http://www.biblestudytools.com/esv/john/passage.aspx?q=john+5:34-44#cr-descriptionAnchor-14you refuse to come to me that you may have life.41http://www.biblestudytools.com/esv/john/passage.aspx?q=john+5:34-44#cr-descriptionAnchor-15I do not receive glory from people.

​

Yes, life is found in the Torah. It's revealed in the person of Messiah Yeshua. And is received .....by grace through faith.

 

[daq]

6) As for the writings of Yochanan the Immerser, the greatest of men having been born of women from among the prophets; blessed is he that reads that book, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and those who keep those things which are written therein.

Amen! Its all right there in John In the beginning was the Word. What word? See to the vast majority of those believers who attend Sunday church the word is the NT. The very serious problem with that interpretation is the NT DID NOT EXIST when John penned those words. Therefore, even though that position is true, that is NOT what John is talking about! And it could not be since the NT did not exist when John is writing these words. The Word John speaks of is the Torah!! So we learn a few verses down that the Word/Torah became flesh and dwelt among us.

This makes the teaching that the Torah is to be ignored an irreconcilable position because to reject Torah is to reject Messiah!!!! Yeshua in many places says "If you love me you will keep my commandments!" He is speaking to Jews and contrary to what is largely being taught Yeshua IS talking about keeping the commandments of G-d found in the Torah!

Hi BukiRob, are you sure you fully understood the implications of what you highlighted in red?

Yochanan Eliyahu, having been praying and writing in the Machaerus Patmos Prison of Herod during the Day Kuriake, (which Day commences in Lukas 4:17-21) calls unto him a certain duo of his talmidim and sends them unto the Master Yeshua, saying, Art thou the one coming or for another should we watch? And the andres-men having approached Yeshua say unto him: Yochanan the Immerser hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou the one coming or for another should we watch? And in that hour many were cured of diseases, and plagues, and evil spirits; and on many that were blind, sight was bestowed. And Yeshua responding commands them: Go forth, and announce to Yochanan what things you have seen and heard:

1) The blind see:
2) The lame walk:
3) The lepers are cleansed:
4) The deaf hear:
5) The dead are awakened:
6) To the poor the good news is proclaimed:
7) And blessed is he whosoever is not offended in me!

So the angelon of Yochanan depart and announce to him all these things . . .
And Seven Thunders uttered their voices . . .

 

[BukiRob]

Hi BukiRob, are you sure you fully understood the implications of what you highlighted in red?

Yochanan Eliyahu, having been praying and writing in the Machaerus Patmos Prison of Herod during the Day Kuriake, (which Day commences in Lukas 4:17-21) calls unto him a certain duo of his talmidim and sends them unto the Master Yeshua, saying, Art thou the one coming or for another should we watch? And the andres-men having approached Yeshua say unto him: Yochanan the Immerser hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou the one coming or for another should we watch? And in that hour many were cured of diseases, and plagues, and evil spirits; and on many that were blind, sight was bestowed. And Yeshua responding commands them: Go forth, and announce to Yochanan what things you have seen and heard:

1) The blind see:
2) The lame walk:
3) The lepers are cleansed:
4) The deaf hear:
5) The dead are awakened:
6) To the poor the good news is proclaimed:
7) And blessed is he whosoever is not offended in me!

So the angelon of Yochanan depart and announce to him all these things . . .
And Seven Thunders uttered their voices . . .

Not sure I follow you.

I was speaking of the gospel of John and the first chapter which identifies Yeshua as the Word. The only Word/Scripture that existed at that time was the Torah

 

[DennisTate]

What we see again is that the "stumbling", and consequent "breaking off" of individual Jews, allowed for the inclusion of non-Jews into God’s covenantal promises to Avraham. But they are warned earlier in the text that they have an obligation to fulfill as a result; and that is to help bring about the restoration of Yisra’el through their inclusion and fruit-bearing. I say "fruit-bearing" because it is well known that uncultivated, wild olive trees bore no useful fruit. What we see according to Rabbi Paul’s model is that only after they are grafted into the household of Yisra’el are non-Jews enabled to bear fruit for the Kingdom. However, if there is arrogance or pride when it comes to the new position, and the wild branches in any way look down upon the currently broken-off branches, they too will suffer the same fate. You (non-Jews) are only in your current position due to God’s grace.

And the brilliant Rabbi Nachman of Breslov is so correct in asserting that it is so often necessary for us to go downward...… in order to be prepared for a later ascension upward!

Whenever a person rises from one level to the next, it necessitates that he first has a descent before the ascent. Because the purpose of any descent is always in order to ascend. (LM 22)

Nachman of Breslov - Wikiquote