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Why Are Christians Losing America?

Evangelion

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This...

You're trying to use isolated incidents like the school shootings to justify your position. But look where they occurred: Paducah, Kentucky; Jonesboro, Arkansas; Pearl, Mississippi, etc.---THE VALUES THAT THE SCHOOL SHOOTERS LEARNED THAT LED TO THEIR ACTIONS DID NOT COME FROM HOLLYWOOD! THOSE VALUES CAME FROM RIGHT INSIDE THEIR OWN HOMES!

...is a point well made.

And all of them conservative Christian states, no less. :cool:
 
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geocajun

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Gunny

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A FALLING AWAY OF THE CHURCHES (2Tim.4:3; Mat.24:12)

It has been estimated that probably 95% of all church members have never led anyone to Christ.


A survey taken of 520 clergy & laymen of the NCC (National Council of Churches), showed that only a little over half believed Jesus to be divine, & only 62% believe in an afterlife.



McCall Magazine took a survey of 3000 Protestant clergymen. The article stated that "A considerable number rejected altogether the idea of a personal God. A majority of the youngest group cannot be said to believe in a Virgin birth or to regard Jesus as divine."


In the U.S. in high schools the word "Christmas" has been eliminated. One high school principal says, "We do not use Christmas, instead we use the word holiday. When we plan holiday activities we must ask ourselves, does the activity create a religious observance? If the answer is yes, then the activity will not take place."



It is illegal in U.S. public schools to read the Bible, but many states require that a Bible is provided for every convict in jail. So if the children can't read the Bible in school, they'll be able to read it when they get to prison.
 
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geocajun

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Today at 03:20 PM Texas Lynn said this in Post #39 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=659066#post659066)


You're trying to use isolated incidents like the school shootings to justify your position.&nbsp; But look where they occurred:&nbsp; Paducah, Kentucky;&nbsp; Jonesboro, Arkansas;&nbsp; Pearl, Mississippi, etc.---THE VALUES THAT THE SCHOOL SHOOTERS LEARNED THAT LED TO THEIR ACTIONS DID NOT COME FROM HOLLYWOOD!&nbsp; THOSE VALUES CAME FROM RIGHT INSIDE THEIR OWN HOMES!


while I agree that the failure was in large part due to their home, no ones environment is solely at home, and our environment plays a large part in making us who we are and who we become - and each of our problems becomes our childrens and our neighbors and our neighbors childrens problems because we are all learning from one another, and we are all family.
and it doesn't matter where they are living in the USA, the Internet, and TV and movies are all near by...
 
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geocajun

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Today at 03:40 PM gunnysgt said this in Post #43 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=659120#post659120)

A FALLING AWAY OF THE CHURCHES (2Tim.4:3; Mat.24:12)

It has been estimated that probably 95% of all church members have never led anyone to Christ.


A survey taken of 520 clergy & laymen of the NCC (National Council of Churches), showed that only a little over half believed Jesus to be divine, & only 62% believe in an afterlife.



McCall Magazine took a survey of 3000 Protestant clergymen. The article stated that "A considerable number rejected altogether the idea of a personal God. A majority of the youngest group cannot be said to believe in a Virgin birth or to regard Jesus as divine."


In the U.S. in high schools the word "Christmas" has been eliminated. One high school principal says, "We do not use Christmas, instead we use the word holiday. When we plan holiday activities we must ask ourselves, does the activity create a religious observance? If the answer is yes, then the activity will not take place."



It is illegal in U.S. public schools to read the Bible, but many states require that a Bible is provided for every convict in jail. So if the children can't read the Bible in school, they'll be able to read it when they get to prison.


good stuff gunny!
 
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Evangelion

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gunny -

In the U.S. in high schools the word "Christmas" has been eliminated.

This is difficult to believe.

A few politically correct nutters might refrain from using the word, but I see no evidence that it has been "eliminated" from "US high schools."

That would mean that it has been totally eradicated - a considerarable feat, as I'm sure you'll agaree.

As for...

It is illegal in U.S. public schools to read the Bible

I believe that this is simply not true.

Observe:

  • What the constitution allows:

    Again, this is in a state of flux. As of early 1999, the following activities are permitted. In fact, they are more than allowed. They are constitutionally protected as freedom of speech, religion and assembly rights:

    Graduation ceremonies:
    Some invocations, benedictions and prayers at graduation ceremonies. This is very much a gray area as far as court rulings is concerned. More details.

    Teaching religion:
    The positive and negative effects of religion on society may be studied in history, literature, comparative religion, and other courses. Comparative religion classes are allowed, as long as one religion is not presented as being superior to any another, or as absolute truth. Bible study is allowed, as long as the texts from other religions are also studied. Schools can communicate the broad field of religion but not indoctrinate their students in a particular faith.

    Student religious clubs:
    If the school receives federal funds, then it must obey the federal Equal Access Act of 1984. Students are free to organize Bible study and other religious special interest clubs if any other secular clubs are allowed. The school may prohibit religious clubs, but only if it prohibits all student groups. Religious clubs must be given the same access to school facilities (space to meet, permission to advertise on school bulletin boards, permission to have announcements read over the PA system, inclusion in the year book, etc.) as do other clubs.

    Group meetings must be "voluntary and student initiated." There must be no "sponsorship" of the meetings by the school. "Non-school persons may not direct, conduct, control, or regularly attend" the activities. One effect of this law is the flourishing of Christian clubs in public schools. The American Civil Liberties Union estimates that 10,000 Christian clubs are operating in U.S. high schools. 2 More information

    Moment of silence:
    Having students engage in a moment of silence during which they can pray, meditate, plan their day, or engage in any other silent mental activity. In late 2000, a federal court affirmed the constitutionality of the moment of silence law which came into effect in Virginia on 2000-APR-1. The decision is under appeal by the ACLU. The Natural Law Project promotes this alternative. 4

    Prayer outside of school building:
    Students can organize prayers on school property outside the classroom. e.g. they can conduct group prayer meetings at the school flagpole.

    School religious speech:
    Students can carry Bible or other religious texts to and in school. They can pray before eating. A student can pray on the school bus, in the cafeteria, in classrooms before and after class, in the corridors, in the washrooms, etc. They can wear T-shirts with religious text. They can wear religious jewelry (buttons, symbols). They can hand out religious materials. They can freely talk about religion to fellow students, outside of class. They can pray before eating in the cafeteria. These are well-known freedoms guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution.


    Yet not everyone is aware of these forms of protected speech. Bill Keane's cartoon "Family Circus" for 1999-NOV-15 shows a mother waving at two children leaving the house. She says "Get to school safely." The caption reads "Chances are they will as long as they're allowed to pray on that old school bus."

    Rental of school facilities:
    Many religious organizations rent school facilities after hours. Past court decisions generally supported this right, if rooms are also rented to secular groups. Court rulings specified that schools can refuse to rent to religious groups, but then they cannot rent to outside secular organizations as well. However, recent court decisions have split on this issue.

    Teaching of evolution:
    Schools may require their teachers to explain evolution as a scientific theory, as supported by 95% of scientists. This would include teachers who might not believe evolution to be true because of their personal religious grounds.

    Teacher display of religion:
    Teachers may be prohibited from displaying a Bible on their desk or from placing religious posters on the classroom wall. This would imply state support for a specific religion.


    Full text available here.
I see no problem here for American Christians.

On the contrary, I see a wide range of freedoms - all of them unequivocally defended by the US Constitution. :cool:
 
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Magisterium

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Today at 09:20 PM Texas Lynn said this in Post #39 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=659066#post659066)

Not at all.&nbsp; We can learn by analyzing others.



That's not my position.&nbsp; I never said it was.



You're trying to use isolated incidents like the school shootings to justify your position.&nbsp; But look where they occurred:&nbsp; Paducah, Kentucky;&nbsp; Jonesboro, Arkansas;&nbsp; Pearl, Mississippi, etc.---THE VALUES THAT THE SCHOOL SHOOTERS LEARNED THAT LED TO THEIR ACTIONS DID NOT COME FROM HOLLYWOOD!&nbsp; THOSE VALUES CAME FROM RIGHT INSIDE THEIR OWN HOMES!




&nbsp;




Are you trying to imply that these people do not have TV's and VCR's? I'm from Brooklyn, NY where school shootings are a daily occurence (no exageration). The "isolated" incidences you think they are, are much more common than you think. You're just not as well informed as you think. The only reason the ones you stated are national news is because of the locations which are typically away from the urban centers where it is common place. As for those "values" coming from their own homes, you further argue my point. These "values" or lack thereof, have no place in the family. The destruction of the family is why they are so prevelant.
 
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pace

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Today at 08:51 PM Blackhawk said this in Post #28

I do not know if the U.S. was ever a Christian nation. At least I have to think otherwise because of the way we treated the african americans and especially the indians. I think of 1st John. They will know we are Christians by our love.

However I do believe more had a Christian worldview in the past which is chanigng. Today in regards to worldviews we live in a post Christian era in the U.S.. And I only point the blame at us Christians. I think many who have changed their worldview from a Christian have done so because the church has not loved them or they have seen how the church has not loved in the past.

Oh and I do not beleive a theocracy or a democracy really work. I think democracy is our best man made idea so far. However I beleive like Rich Mullins said. WE just have bad math. WE think that being ruled by one evil person is worse than being ruled by a whole countrty of evil and depraved people. Either way we lose.&nbsp;

&nbsp;

And Winston Churchill&nbsp;once said : " Democracy is really an terrible form of rule. But it's really the best form of rule we&nbsp;know. "
 
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pace

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Today at 09:48 PM kern said this in Post #33

Yes, but let's not be self-centered -- ask an African-American if he thinks this country has improved since the 19th century and let's see what he says.

-Chris


I've heard 1/3 of the africans in America live under the poordom limit ? 1 out of 3, in case, thats pretty much :sigh:
 
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Blackhawk

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Today at 10:06 PM pace said this in Post #48

And Winston Churchill&nbsp;once said : " Democracy is really an terrible form of rule. But it's really the best form of rule we&nbsp;know. "


I agree.&nbsp;
 
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Texas Lynn

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Today at 09:57 PM A_B_liever said this in Post #47 Are you trying to imply that these people do not have TV's and VCR's?

Sure they do, but that's no excuse to blame their appliances for what happened.

I'm from Brooklyn, NY where school shootings are a daily occurence (no exageration). The "isolated" incidences you think they are, are much more common than you think. You're just not as well informed as you think. The only reason the ones you stated are national news is because of the locations which are typically away from the urban centers where it is common place.

Oh, please, let's not play the "more ghetto than you" game.&nbsp; I've been in the inner city countless times in my work and I am a younger white woman who was wearing dresses and jewelry at the time and driving a 2002 car, but I was never mugged or threatened.&nbsp; The ghetto's problems may be more visible than suburbia's but there are good people in both.

As for those "values" coming from their own homes, you further argue my point. These "values" or lack thereof, have no place in the family. The destruction of the family is why they are so prevelant.

The "family" as you describe it never existed, hence, it cannot face "destruction" since it's nothing more than a myth.&nbsp;
 
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Gunny

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Today at 04:50 PM Evangelion said this in Post #46 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=659145#post659145)

I see no problem here for American Christians.

On the contrary, I see a wide range of freedoms - all of them unequivocally defended by the US Constitution. :cool:

School's ban on cross necklaces is Christian-bashing

by the Libertarian Party

(10/25/99) A threat by an Alabama school to discipline an 11-year-old girl for wearing a cross necklace shows why you can't trust government schools to protect religious freedom, the Libertarian Party said today.

"Students go to school to learn -- but what kind of lesson do they learn when the government says that wearing a cross is a crime?" asked Steve Dasbach, the party's national director. "It seems the lesson of the day in Alabama is Religious Intolerance 101."

Earlier this month, attorneys for Kandice Smith, a sixth-grader at Curry Middle School in Walker County, Alabama, filed a lawsuit in federal court to overturn what they called an "unconstitutional" dress code.

In August, the school banned cross necklaces as part of its new dress code -- claiming they are "gang symbols." School officials threatened to discipline Smith if she didn't hide the cross under her clothes.

But Smith's attorneys argue the policy "violates the free speech and free exercise rights [of Smith] by denying her the ability to express her faith through the visible wearing of the necklace." The lawsuit also charges that the school "demonstrates a hostility toward religion."


Smith's attorneys argue the policy "violates the free speech and free exercise rights [of Smith] by denying her the ability to express her faith

Dasbach said Libertarians agree -- but have a better solution.

"Any dress code that bans a popular Christian symbol is clearly unconstitutional, and we're confident the court will agree. But changing this particular school's dress code isn't the answer," he said.

"After all, if Kandice Smith wins, the problem will be solved at Curry Middle School. But it doesn't change the fact that thousands of government school districts all across the country have the power to implement a similar anti-Christian ban tomorrow.

"And it doesn't change the fact that government schools routinely teach values and beliefs that many Christians find abhorrent -- while forcing them to pay taxes to subsidize those schools. That's why this lawsuit won't solve the real problem."

So what will?

"Most Christians support a separation of church and state because they understand that government should not come between people's relationship with their God," said Dasbach. "What Libertarians understand is that we need a separation of school and state for the same reason: To protect children like Kandice Smith from the kind of religious intolerance she is experiencing at a government school."

In a free-market system parents would be able to send their children to schools that teach their values

That's why the underlying problem will only be solved when America starts moving toward a system where children are educated in free-market, religious, or voluntary community schools -- not tax-funded government schools, he said.

"In a free-market system -- where people aren't forced to subsidize costly, failing government schools -- parents would be able to send their children to schools that teach their values, and respect their beliefs," said Dasbach. "In a free-market system, Kandice Smith's parents wouldn't be forced to send her to a school that makes wearing a cross a crime."

The idea of moving away from government-run schools and towards private alternatives can be somewhat unsettling for many Christians, Dasbach acknowledged.

"But remember this: Jesus Christ was sentenced to death by his government," he said. "So, do you want to blindly trust our government to educate your children properly -- especially after what it's done to Kandice Smith?"
 
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Starscream

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Today at 05:29 PM gunnysgt said this in Post #54 School's ban on cross necklaces is Christian-bashing&nbsp;

I agree that banning the necklaces is stupid, but I don't see it as Christian-bashing.&nbsp; The article itself said they are trying to ban a "gang-symbol".

To me, it's just as stupid as when black-trenchcoats were banned shortly after Columbine.
 
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Starscream

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Yesterday at 03:27 PM geocajun said this in Post #1

This article was written August 9th, 2002, but I liked it soo much that I figure I would post it here for you all to read :)

Why are Christians Losing America?

below is a quote from the article:


This is a fantastic article, very insightful!

IMHO, Christians are losing America because far too often they fail to lead by good example.

The people behind World Net Daily are a perfect example of this - Christians aren't losing America in spite of WND but because of WND.

When I was a child, I was taught to think of the word "Christian" as "kindness" and "gentle" and "humble" - but I have read cruel sentiments completly devoid of compassion from some Christians here that&nbsp;serve to convince me that those lessons were extremely simplified.
 
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Blackhawk

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Today at 12:33 AM Starscream said this in Post #56

IMHO, Christians are losing America because far too often they fail to lead by good example.

The people behind World Net Daily are a perfect example of this - Christians aren't losing America in spite of WND but because of WND.

When I was a child, I was taught to think of the word "Christian" as "kindness" and "gentle" and "humble" - but I have read cruel sentiments completly devoid of compassion from some Christians here that&nbsp;serve to convince me that those lessons were extremely simplified.

I agree with you Starscream.&nbsp; Except for the minor point about the WND.&nbsp; I really do not have any real opinion on them.&nbsp; But if we Christians really loved as the Bible tells us to love then NonChristians would be drawn to us and our ideas and our God instead of being repelled by our hypocritical caricatures of the real thing.&nbsp; I am not saying God can't work around this because no matter how "Holy' we try to be or are in our standrads we still are a far cry from God and His standards.&nbsp; However we have been commanded to love all and to share Jesus with all the world.&nbsp; WE can do neither without a real attempt at living holy and loving lives now.&nbsp; I hope all this made sense.&nbsp;
 
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Evangelion

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So anyway... what we have learned in the past 24 hours is:
  • That the word "Christmas" has not been eliminated from US public schools.
  • That Christian students are indeed permitted to read Bibles at school.
In these kinds of discussions, I always prefer a little more in the way of facts, and a little less in the way of propaganda.

Perhaps that's just me. :cool:
 
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notto

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Sounds like an interesting case.

Lots of evangalizing, with the majority imposing its will on the minority and lots of discrimination against those who wish not to pray or to be required to be at events where there is prayer. Prayer is one thing, no body is preventing students from prayers. Open evangalizing on school grounds and requiring students or parents to attend events where prayer is given to the audience is another.

Should be a no brainer.

Gunny, would you support Muslim or Wiccan prayers offered by students at graduation, basketball games, and in class as acceptable in the name of religious freedom? Can they invite their leaders to give presentations and lead lectures? Should they be allowed to invite students to their pizza parties by handing out flyers to students in assembly? (Do Wiccans have pizza parties?)


http://www.ffrf.org/fttoday/march96/frontpage.html

"Jesse's 6th-grade teacher last year solicited students to pray at the front of the class or read from the bible. Students who did not want to pray were told to stand in the hall"

"Religion was also part of a ceremony for a drug-education program that Jesse had to attend as a 5th grader where students read from the bible. Jesse also attended a mandatory student assembly last fall featuring a Christian evangelist, who preached at students and invited them to attend a "pizza party" held in conjunction with his evangelistic crusade meetings. Deborah attended a school-wide assembly during the 1994-95 school year where religious representatives used biblical and religious arguments against abortion and use of drugs, also soliciting students for a Christian"pizza party."

"Assistant principal Michael Chandler of Valley Head High School contends the DeKalb County school district has long violated the U.S. Constitution, ignoring years of complaints over practices including prayers before graduation ceremonies and football games, classroom distribution of Gideon bibles, and classroom prayers."
 
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