God: evil, incompetent or impaired?

[workmx]

Seems some blinkers might be in place. Joshua stated:
Answer: God can be omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent (what you call "omni-max"), when evil exists, simply because he has reason(s) for allowing evil to exist.

This is not a "problem" for theists. It's a pretty simple answer.

That is not an unreasonable answer, although you seem to be ignoring it, probably as it disturbs your simplistic syllogisms.

You who can't even know all about yourself, let alone another person, with complete certainty, can dismiss God having purposes He has not told us about. Really?

Soundly reasoned arguments require facts
You don't have all the facts
Therefore your arguments are not reasonable.

Or:
Reason alone based on facts is the primary arbiter of truth.

How do you 'prove' that without using reason and therefore engaging in a circular argument - reason 'proving; reason?

John
NZ

I asked Joshua the same follow up question (that would clarify his position) twice and didn't get an answer, so felt free to ignore the initial response.

 

[oi_antz]

I don't remember asking Harry this question, but I could be wong.

You are right, you haven't. I asked because it is a big question to ask, and I seem to remember you have already asked this. I could be wrong!

 

[Joshua260]

So, could god create a world without evil? Yes or no?

If no, god is not omnipotent.

If yes, why didn't god have created a world without evil?

Yes, God could (and did) create a world without evil.

Your confusion is in that you view evil as a thing. It is not. It is an act, and the evil act did not originate from God, it originated from man, who freely chose to COMMIT evil.

So a better question is "Could God have created a world where man does not commit an evil act?" Also yes, but then it would not be a world where man had been given the gift of free will. That world was not what God desired.

 

[Joshua260]

I asked Joshua the same follow up question (that would clarify his position) twice and didn't get an answer, so felt free to ignore the initial response.

I have not avoided any questions.

 

[oi_antz]

OP, would you mind clarifying what you deem to be an evil act? I think that is important. My understanding might be different to yours, it even seems different to Joshua's. In my mind, evil is an act that every creature can perform, even plants when they smother their neighbours. If that is the case, then it surely would have existed in the beginning, and I don't think that would contradict the Genesis story. As I explained, I think something can be both somewhat good and somewhat evil. This does lead into another idea that I have been considering, whether Adam and Eve did have an awareness of good and evil, and whether their original error was to want the knowledge of it. Slight difference in words, quite a significant difference in meaning. One that seems to explain the problem with their error. If they were aware of good and evil, but lacked knowledge of it, then they would have known that good is good and evil is evil. That would have assisted them in doing good things and not doing evil things. Knowledge, as I understand it, is the action of analysing information and concluding from it. I am considering this, and I wanted to share the idea with you because I thought you might like to consider it too. Let me know what you think, if you do.

 

[Messy]

If god could have created a universe without evil, then why did god not do that? At this point some may say that god created the universe with freewill and evil. But god could have created a universe with freewill and no evil, if god was all powerful (omnipotent). So, the question remains as to why create an imperfect universe with evil?

My idea: He did and that didn't work. He created everything good, being like Adam who was made after His Image, innocent, He had no idea the angel would become a devil ( it's nowhere in the Bible that He knew that, how can Light even think of a possibility of darkness?) and then He destroyed everything and started again with this world but with a redemption plan.
http://www.kjvbible.org/satan.html

 

[BaconWizard]

.

 

[Hawkins]

i wrote this somewhere else. Question human intelligence more, that's the advice.

======
Or rather the first question is, is human intelligence unlimited? Or is human intelligence limited and may possibly be unable to understand God's plan/intention completely.

God's ultimate purpose is to build an eternity called heaven. He's working towards this goal. Not as you said in OP that His purpose is to reward humans on earth. Heaven is not the reward, it is the purpose He's working towards.

However, out of human arrogance, humans usually assume that today's humans are God's whole purpose and heaven becomes a less important place for the reward of men on earth.

That said, planet earth is a place outside God's realm. This is so ever since Adam was kicked out of Eden. Eden on the other hand is a godly place, not earth.

Once it is outside God's realm, earth becomes a wilderness full of wolves. It's naturally so. Any place outside God's realm is naturally a place where evil grows freely. Wolves and beasts are supposed to be everywhere. Earth is already a better place. It is so because God still has a job to do on earth. Earth is still a better place then hell because God still cares.

Now what does He care? His sheep are still among the wolves in the wilderness. That's why.

Planet earth thus is a place described as,

1) a wilderness full of wolves (including beasts like Satan), mixed together with God's lost sheep
2) a crop field of God where in the end some souls will come out as God's harvest
3) a large filter to sift out the unqualified for God a get His wheat as His products
4) a field where weeds grows with wheat. Once they can be told apart, God will get the wheat and burn the weeds

I think that if you can read the Bible more wisely, you may figure out all the answers to those questions in OP. People don't get the answers because human intelligence is the biggest issue of the arrogant humans themselves, without their own self awareness.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

So, could god create a world without evil? Yes or no?

If no, god is not omnipotent.

If yes, why didn't god have created a world without evil?

All powerful means you can do anything that can be done.

It doesn't mean that all things can be done.


You cannot create creatures with free will who always choose good.

 

[Harry3142]

workmx-

We have free will to the extent that we can choose for ourselves whether we will follow God's dictates, or instead follow the dictates of whatever we choose to replace him with:

Now fear the Lord and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your forefathers worshiped beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord. (Joshua 24:14-15,NIV)

Once we choose the direction that we will walk in, we become subject to the dictates inherent in whatever direction we have chosen. If we choose to walk in the direction which God wants of us, we become subject to the dictates inherent in righteousness. However, if we choose to walk in the direction which our own narcissism and arrogance dictate of us, then we become subject to the evil which is inherent to that decision:

What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Don't you know that whenever you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one you obey - whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. (Romans 6:15-18,NIV)

There is a saying which 'drives home' the fact that the responsibility for our actions rests squarely on our own shoulders:

"That there is a devil, there is no doubt. But is he trying to get in, or trying to get out?"

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

In the classic formulation of the problem of evil, theists must wrestle with the fact of evil in the world and what that tells us of a creator god who said to be omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent. All references to “god” below will assume that this god is a creator god who is omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent. The word “god” will be used as shorthand for that type of deity.

That evil exists is a problem for such a god. If evil exists, we must ask whether that god can prevent evil. If not, then god is not all powerful (not omnipotent). If god doesn’t know about this evil, it is not all knowing (omniscient). If god knows about evil and chooses not to prevent evil, that god is not all good (omnibenevolent). If god knows about, can prevent and wants to prevent evil (in other words, remains omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent), then why does evil exist?

At this point some will say that god is testing humans. In this case, god would know the result (as god remained omniscient), so the test would be pointless.

Others may say that it is the presence of Satan in the world that causes evil, but god (remaining omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent) could simply destroy Satan. Given that god also created Satan, the question of why create both evil and Satan also relevant.

If god could have created a universe without evil, then why did god not do that? At this point some may say that god created the universe with freewill and evil. But god could have created a universe with freewill and no evil, if god was all powerful (omnipotent). So, the question remains as to why create an imperfect universe with evil?

It is possible that god could not create a universe without evil, thus is not all powerful (omnipotent).

Alternatively, god may have been able to create a universe without evil, but did not want to do so. This also leads us to the question of why create a universe with evil, unless god is actually evil. If god is evil, then god is closer to the classical conception of Satan. And thus, Satan may be less evil than god (which seems to concur with Biblical account of Satan). If god is not evil, then we can assume that god is either incompetent or cognitively impaired.

Its not a problem for Christians because they know that God fulfills ALL of his promises and that includes the ridding of all evil in the end. Therefore, God isn't blind to it/doesn't condone it/isn't incompetent to correct it now/and doesn't care . Rather, school is still out at the present and all evil will be dealt with...that includes the evil associated with continuously rejecting Gods offer for forgiveness in his Son, Jesus, thru wanting to be Ones own 'god' in authority instead of giving it over to Gods rightful place. You see, evil comes in many forms and one of the greatest is self deceit that comes with not wanting God to be real so One can have total authority and control over his lifestyle choices which are often immoral and harmful to oneself and others. Just like what our American culture teaches at present. God is counter culture , big time.

By the way, the fact of evil is a bigger problem for professed atheists than theists because if the atheist acknowledges that there is evil, then he has to be comparing that to an absolute standard of goodness ....and such an absolute standard also known as The Moral Law inscribed on all of us, can only come from a Moral Law Prescriber , that being , a personal MOral Creator. It cant come from materials like planets, rocks, and hydrogen gas from a Big Bang . If you call something 'evil or wrong' then you must have some idea what good is ; how did you get this moral oughtness ? Why isn't evil actually a good thing ? These questions are meaningless unless there is a superior moral truth which is fidelity to the original (the original being the personal moral First Cause of the entire Universe viz. God) . So, if you believe in evil, then you believe in God too . But then again....there never was such a thing as a real Atheist person....only those who know this personal creation takes a personal Creator, but to surrender to his authority isn't a very palatable choice because it gives up too much 'fun' . I know...I went thru the whole charade for a good 10 adult years before finally saying ok, ive had enough in the interest of truth.


Answers for the sincere Atheist : http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/answers.html

 

[workmx]

Its not a problem for Christians because they know that God fulfills ALL of his promises and that includes the ridding of all evil in the end. Therefore, God isn't blind to it/doesn't condone it/isn't incompetent to correct it now/and doesn't care . Rather, school is still out at the present and all evil will be dealt with...that includes the evil associated with continuously rejecting Gods offer for forgiveness in his Son, Jesus, thru wanting to be Ones own 'god' in authority instead of giving it over to Gods rightful place. You see, evil comes in many forms and one of the greatest is self deceit that comes with not wanting God to be real so One can have total authority and control over his lifestyle choices which are often immoral and harmful to oneself and others. Just like what our American culture teaches at present. God is counter culture , big time.

By the way, the fact of evil is a bigger problem for professed atheists than theists because if the atheist acknowledges that there is evil, then he has to be comparing that to an absolute standard of goodness ....and such an absolute standard also known as The Moral Law inscribed on all of us, can only come from a Moral Law Prescriber , that being , a personal MOral Creator. It cant come from materials like planets, rocks, and hydrogen gas from a Big Bang . If you call something 'evil or wrong' then you must have some idea what good is ; how did you get this moral oughtness ? Why isn't evil actually a good thing ? These questions are meaningless unless there is a superior moral truth which is fidelity to the original (the original being the personal moral First Cause of the entire Universe viz. God) . So, if you believe in evil, then you believe in God too . But then again....there never was such a thing as a real Atheist person....only those who know this personal creation takes a personal Creator, but to surrender to his authority isn't a very palatable choice because it gives up too much 'fun' . I know...I went thru the whole charade for a good 10 adult years before finally saying ok, ive had enough in the interest of truth.


Answers for the sincere Atheist : Answers for Atheists and Agnostics

No, it is a problem.

And you finally admitted it by saying that, at the moment, god allows evil to exist.

Which means god is not omnibenevolent and/or not omnipotent.

Thanks for the answer.

 

[workmx]

TCMD - And thanks for the link.

Am reading through now: I see that that the AAA site also admits that god is not omnipotent.

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

No, it is a problem.

And you finally admitted it by saying that, at the moment, god allows evil to exist.

Which means god is not omnibenevolent and/or not omnipotent.

Thanks for the answer.

Yes, God allows it to exist temporarily . He hopes that evil people will want to change so he is delaying the inevitable consequences. You may not think of yourself as evil, but, if you go your entire life rejecting God, mocking him, and wanting to partake in any lifestyle that pleases you....that is a actually a great evil to snub Ones own Creator and Creator of the entire Universe. So, praise God that he is delaying permanently dealing with evil that exists on earth .

God is still all powerful and benevolent ; he also has a freewill and definitive plans that wont be thwarted . If I were you, id take advantage of Gods mercy toward you now , instead of wanting it when yuou give accountability to him in person in the afterlife. Jesus is the answer .

 

[workmx]

Yes, God allows it to exist temporarily . He hopes that evil people will want to change so he is delaying the inevitable consequences. You may not think of yourself as evil, but, if you go your entire life rejecting God, mocking him, and wanting to partake in any lifestyle that pleases you....that is a actually a great evil to snub Ones own Creator and Creator of the entire Universe. So, praise God that he is delaying permanently dealing with evil that exists on earth .

God is still all powerful and benevolent ; he also has a freewill and definitive plans that wont be thwarted . If I were you, id take advantage of Gods mercy toward you now , instead of wanting it when yuou give accountability to him in person in the afterlife. Jesus is the answer .

Why would an omnibenevolent god punish anyone for anything?

This just does not make sense.

If god punishes even one person that god is by defintion not omnibenevolent.

The idea of an omni-max god does not add up.

 

[Johnnz]

"If god punishes even one person that god is by defintion not omnibenevolent."

So Hitler should be applauded?

John
NZ

 

[workmx]

"If god punishes even one person that god is by defintion not omnibenevolent."

So Hitler should be applauded? Godwin??

John
NZ

I don't believe that god is omnibenevolent, so I don't know.

What do you think?

Does your god love everyone?

Is you god (truly) omnibenevolent?

 

[Johnnz]

I don't believe that god is omnibenevolent, so I don't know.

What do you think?

Does your god love everyone?

Is you god (truly) omnibenevolent?

Seems you rather missed my point.

John
NZ

 

[workmx]

Seems you rather missed my point.

John
NZ

Then, can you make your point clear?