EO & evolution

Christos Anesti

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Before I came to the Orthodox Church I was really won over to the Traditionalist or Perennial Philosophy school of Rene Guenon and Schoun. This movement was very anti-modern and reactionary and as part of this general attitude it obviously rejected evolution. At the time I found some of the philosophical arguments against evolution fairly convincing. Philosophy was the grounds the traditionalist authors generally attacked it on because none of them seemed to keen to take it on from a scientific standpoint.

Well, when I came into the Orthodox Church I held on to that view and occasionally argued with my Priest, who accepted evolution, telling him that evolution was anti-Christian and should be rejected. Yep, I was one of those "more orthodox than you" know it all converts who wanted to lecture the priest:blush:. In order to back up my opinion I started looking into scientific attempts at refuting evolution. Well, that's where I started loosing faith in the anti-evolution position. The attempts at scientific refutation were just not that convincing. The final nail in the coffin came when I started reading books explaining evolution from mainstream scientific sources and actually listened to podcasts and videos of anti-evolution creationists debate evolutionists on scientific grounds. The evolutionists almost always wiped the table with the anti-evolution creationists. You can see the same right here if you go into the science section of the forum too. The debates among the experts are really mirrored here in the debates between members of the average public with the same outcomes.

So basically the philosophical arguments against evolution seemed somewhat plausible but when I looked at the science of the matter I just had to accept evolution and I found it very hard to take the anti-evolution creationists "scientific" talking points seriously.
 
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Kristos

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so, then if one agrees that science can only look at the world in its post Fallen state, then one must assert that there is a Fall and that asking questions (like pre Fall digestion) have no answer we can give because that is outside of our realm of experience.

Science would have no answer, but it would not even ask the question. There are many thing to which science has no answer - being, consciousness, bliss - for example. As Christians we have the oracles to help answer metaphysically, but not in any terms that could be considered "scientific".
 
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jckstraw72

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Before I came to the Orthodox Church I was really won over to the Traditionalist or Perennial Philosophy school of Rene Guenon and Schoun. This movement was very anti-modern and reactionary and as part of this general attitude it obviously rejected evolution. At the time I found some of the philosophical arguments against evolution fairly convincing. Philosophy was the grounds the traditionalist authors generally attacked it on because none of them seemed to keen to take it on from a scientific standpoint.

Well, when I came into the Orthodox Church I held on to that view and occasionally argued with my Priest, who accepted evolution, telling him that evolution was anti-Christian and should be rejected. Yep, I was one of those "more orthodox than you" know it all converts who wanted to lecture the priest:blush:. In order to back up my opinion I started looking into scientific attempts at refuting evolution. Well, that's where I started loosing faith in the anti-evolution position. The attempts at scientific refutation were just not that convincing. The final nail in the coffin came when I started reading books explaining evolution from mainstream scientific sources and actually listened to podcasts and videos of anti-evolution creationists debate evolutionists on scientific grounds. The evolutionists almost always wiped the table with the anti-evolution creationists. You can see the same right here if you go into the science section of the forum too. The debates among the experts are really mirrored here in the debates between members of the average public with the same outcomes.

So basically the philosophical arguments against evolution seemed somewhat plausible but when I looked at the science of the matter I just had to accept evolution and I found it very hard to take the anti-evolution creationists "scientific" talking points seriously.

the problem is that science is not the crux of the matter here. "science" from before the Fall cannot be done - whether evolutionary or creationist. this is all about theology. i find that the pro-evolutionists continually misunderstand this.
 
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this discussion makes me think of the children song "The wheels on bus go round and round..."

It also makes me think of this:

It's easier to take the children of Israel out of Egypt, but its more difficult to take Egypt out of the children of Israel.

you guys can take a shot at figuring out what I'm implying :)
 
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Kristos

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I'd just like one, dude, just ONE poster who is pro-evolution to explain their theory of how the narrative went! Just one! I'd love to hear the story....In the beginning God made this single-celled organism that ascended into....and became...and eventually __________ happened. During this time man was not yet Man but just a flux. Death was in the world and it was ok. Then suddenly our First Parents sprang up and it was "good" as Genesis says and there was no sin, then the Fall occurred and there was sin and death again...then..

What is the actual coherent narrative? What is your vision, evolutionists, of how it happened? Any speculation would be appreciated, but how do you reconcile it with the Fall, God making everything GOOD and WITHOUT SIN AND DEATH, and fit it with what we know the Fathers, Scripture, the Church, and saints have taught?

While I'm not pro-evolution, I will take a moment to say that this line of thinking seems a bit absurd to me. Are you really saying that nothing died until humans were on the earth?
 
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Christos Anesti

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the problem is that science is not the crux of the matter here. "science" from before the Fall cannot be done
If that's true then most creationists apparently don't understand that either. A good number of the books, web discussions, and articles refuting evolution do make an attempt to do science or to interpret scientific findings in novel ways.

"science" from before the Fall cannot be done

How did you come to that conclusion?
 
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jckstraw72

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If that's true then most creationists apparently don't understand that either. A good number of the books, web discussions, and articles refuting evolution do make an attempt to do science or to interpret scientific findings in novel ways.

yes, you are correct here. but i find that the Orthodox "Creationists" have not fallen for this trap. Fr. Seraphim Rose and Fr. Damascene both acknowledge that creationist science also cannot tell us about the time before the Fall. the Saints and elders who speak on this issue address it from a theological perspective.

How did you come to that conclusion?
the Fathers continually teach that the world before the Fall can only be known by revelation - it is not open to us through science or philosophy -- because the world existed in a different "mode" of existence then which is quite unlike the fallen mode that it now exists in. we can't use fallenness to understand pre-fallenness.
 
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Kristos

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This is one of the things that confuses me the most in this view. I'm totally willing to set my own views aside here to consider this. Where is Adam in all this? Did he evolve or was he specially created? Did, as most modern science shouts at us, he develop from a single cell over a million years, with death all along the way, or was it beings peacefully changing from that single cell into what became man?
The narrative of evolution, as I understand it, depends totally on the presence of death. How does the Christian fit the Fall into the narrative? Before any evolution? (In which case man, being already evolved into what we recognize as man, is outside of that evolutionary picture; ie, non-evolving, which puts you at odds with evolutionary science as I understand it.) Or after a single cell being evolved into man with neither sin nor death (which as far as I can tell ALSO puts you wildly at odds with evolutionary science).
Or is there a third explanation, which makes sense of the apparent contradictions?

I'm afraid the onus is on us not them in this regard. I've heard some pretty far fetched things from Christians attempting to synthesis the Genesis narrative with scientific discovery in a literal fashion - like fossils were put there by God and only made to appear like they are millions of years old. Science says here is what the physical world looks like, here is how it seems to operate - they don't care about the fall. Carbon dating might be subject to some variances, but what does 10% matter in terms of millions? This line of thinking essentially reduces God to a demiurge, the great watchmaker in the sky, which far too anthropomorphic for my taste. It also reduces being to a historical event, not something that is ongoing, that dwells and sustains.
 
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jckstraw72

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I'm afraid the onus is on us not them in this regard. I've heard some pretty far fetched things from Christians attempting to synthesis the Genesis narrative with scientific discovery in a literal fashion - like fossils were put there by God and only made to appear like they are millions of years old. Science says here is what the physical world looks like, here is how it seems to operate - they don't care about the fall. Carbon dating might be subject to some variances, but what does 10% matter in terms of millions? This line of thinking essentially reduces God to a demiurge, the great watchmaker in the sky, which far too anthropomorphic for my taste. It also reduces being to a historical event, not something that is ongoing, that dwells and sustains.

Protestants often get into such silliness. Have you found that Orthodox theological-"creationists" get into this? I hope not!
 
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Kristos

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yes, you are correct here. but i find that the Orthodox "Creationists" have not fallen for this trap. Fr. Seraphim Rose and Fr. Damascene both acknowledge that creationist science also cannot tell us about the time before the Fall. the Saints and elders who speak on this issue address it from a theological perspective.

the Fathers continually teach that the world before the Fall can only be known by revelation - it is not open to us through science or philosophy -- because the world existed in a different "mode" of existence then which is quite unlike the fallen mode that it now exists in. we can't use fallenness to understand pre-fallenness.

And that would be world of the dinosaurs?

How do reconcile this with ANYTHING that we know about the natural world?

I guess I mis-spoke before because I did not understand the presupposition here that the "pre-fall" world as a physical reality lacks any continuity with the present world. Which should mean that we could find a finite point about 7000 years ago when everything stops?

I know we have been through this before, but I have to say again that I find this historical literalist reading of Genesis to be fraught with difficulties, several of which I have already touched upon.
 
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Kristos

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Protestants often get into such silliness. Have you found that Orthodox theological-"creationists" get into this? I hope not!

Then why don't you enlighten me...where exactly do the dinosaurs fit into your timeline of things?
 
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jckstraw72

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Then why don't you enlighten me...where exactly do the dinosaurs fit into your timeline of things?

they were created with the other land animals ... when and why they went extinct (if they are totally extinct), i do not know.
 
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Kristos

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they were created with the other land animals ... when and why they went extinct (if they are totally extinct), i do not know.

but there was no death before the fall, yet entire species went extinct? Or are you saying that man and dinosaurs coexisted?
 
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jckstraw72

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but there was no death before the fall, yet entire species went extinct? Or are you saying that man and dinosaurs coexisted?

oh, they certainly co-existed ... God is not the author of death, as we know.
 
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jckstraw72

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and just as some good examples of Patristic writings on this, here is St. Symeon the New Theologian, specifying that the entire creation, even plants were incorrupt:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Ethical[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Discourses[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1.1[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Notice that it is nowhere written, “God created paradise,” or that he said “let it be and it was,” but instead that He “planted” it, and “made to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food” [Gen. 2:8-9], bearing every kind and variety of fruit, fruit which is never spoiled or lacking but always fresh and ripe, full of sweetness, and providing our ancestors with indescribable pleasure and enjoyment. For their immortal bodies had to be supplied with incorruptible food.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Ethical[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Discourses[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1.1,[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]So, if even transgressing his commandment and being condemned to live and to die we men have grown to so great a multitude, imagine how many we might have been if there were no death: everyone who has been born from the creation of the world until now still alive, and what sort of life and way of living we might have had if we had been preserved incorruptible and immortal in an uncorrupted world, going through life without sin or sorrow, free of cares and troubles.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Ethical[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Discourses[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1.2[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Adam was created with an incorruptible body, though one which was material and on the whole not yet spiritual, and was established by God the Creator as the immortal king of an incorrupt world, and I mean by the latter everything under heaven and not just Paradise … [/FONT]
 
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Christos Anesti

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Here is one attempt to deal with the issue of death coming into the world via sin that I came across. Seems like it's worth taking into consideration:

Does Death Predate Adam?

The first argument, evolution presupposes the change of generations. The change of generations presupposes death. The essence of the problem is that if there were generations of developing animal forms before the appearance and fall of man then in this case we have to say that death was in the world before the appearance of sin! We know that death is the consequence of sin, and the sin of man. Hence, there was no sin in the world, before man than theologically it is impossible to presuppose the existence of death in it.

If death was in the world before the fall of man, then the universe became corrupted, not through man. This statement is against the biblical belief. Here, we have to stop and think hard about the meanings of the words “death” and “sin”.

The word “death” is too human; the word “death” is very rich with human tragedy. Can we apply the word “death,” that is so full, up to the brim with human meaning, to a non-human world? Death for a person is a tragedy, it is something outrageously wrong. It is not by chance that in Russian Philosophy the terrifying fear of death was taken as an experiential witness of its non-human origin. Suppose that man was a legitimate outcome of natural evolution and a struggle for survival; then he would not experience disgust towards that (death) which is so “natural.”

Undoubtedly the death of man entered into this world through sin. Death is evil and it was not created by God. This is also an axiom of Biblical Theology.

Hence, it seems to me, that only one conclusion should be drawn from this: the departure of animals is not death, and it is not the same as the departure of a man. When we say “The death of Socrates” we do not have a right to apply the same word to the phrase “The death of a dog”. The death of a star is a metaphor. We can use the same metaphor to say the “death” of an atom or a chair. Animals were disappearing from existence, they were going out of the world before the time of man. This was not death. Hence, it is impossible to talk about the phenomenon of death in a theological or philosophical meaning of the word, while applying this to a non-human world. The death of a lifeless star or atom, the splitting of a living cell or bacteria, and the discontinuance of a physiological process in monkeys: this is not the same is the death of man.

Yes, death is a consequence of sin! Sin is a violation of the will of the Creator. Can we be sure that the death of animals is also a violation of the Creative will? Did God create animals for eternal life? Did he want to create them as participants in eternity? Did he intend them to partake in the Bread of Life, and Eucharist?

If not — it means those temporary limitations of animals and their accessibility to decay is not a violation of the Plan of the Creator.

It is not a sin or distortion of the creative will. If the Eucharist is the only Bread of Life, and in our Cathedrals we do not administer communion to puppies, it means that this Bread is not for them and Eternity is not for them either. The death of animals is not a violation of the Plan of God. The Bible does not promise eternal life for our world. Only the human soul is prepared for Eternity. The Savior appeals to people, not to kittens, when he says: “Come, you blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world” (Mathew 25:34). The rest will be burned up.
 
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