EO & evolution

Dorothea

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Like I said, I'm here for jokes, not discourse. I pointed at some books if you really want to engage, but this is a message board, I'm not doing your homework. I just can't leave it so that hapless inquirers are deluded into thinking that they have to think the world is 7000 years old.

Chesterton is wrong because he doesn't believe the world is billions of years old and that life evolved from single celled organisms.
From my POV, I don't think it matters how old the earth is. It has no relevance to our salvation. I think it goes with how long a day really was before the night and sun were formed.
 
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gzt

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I've read several of his books and appreciate his criticisms of scientism. "Darwinists" were in favor of a whole of of bad philosophical ideas at that time - eugenics, the idea of "progress", evolution == death of God, and several others, and Chesterton rightly saw through those. That quote, however, is not accurate in its use today for reasons stated.
 
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ArmyMatt

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The groaning is because the world is in travail - as in giving birth. It seems to be that the language fits evolution more than not. Through the fall, sin and death entered the world and because sin and death are at enmity with God's good creation they have distorted it. Is this not a base premise of natural selection? Survival of the fittest etc? If the world was in harmony with God would it change? Maybe that could be pondering, but certainly one cannot assert that the world NOT in harmony with God doesn't change.

it is, but that assumes that evolution and survival of the fittest happened after the Fall. I have no qualms with evolution in the post Fall world, but for there to be a post Fall world there must be a pre Fall world as well.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I don't take it seriously enough to wade into the fever swamps to think about some 19th century crap from a guy who thought the way to fight atheism was to insist vehemently that the world wasn't a few billion years old.

and this is what I personally take issue with. while I don't agree with evolution, I would never insist on here that those that do are believing in crap or garbage or whatever. I know there are many evolutionists on here that would put me to shame as far as piety and devotion to Christ is concerned. I don't know why as soon as someone like me, who does not believe that the earth is billions of years old, says that, it's like I am someone who needs to be corrected as if I have not wieghed the evidence and merely come to a differing conclusion.
 
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Kristos

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If this discussion will only go in circles where I see only my view, you see only yours, and we cannot even suppositionally imagine the others, then the discussion must be abandoned as fruitless and harmful. But I think we can be better than that, so I ask you to lay out your view. I think I CAN (at least) imagine the idea that it is true and deal with that.

You are probably correct, because my points seem to go unaddressed and I feel that I have laid out my view - which is that right or wrong, the theory of evolution is inconsequential to my faith and therefore I feel no need to defend or discredit it based on my faith. I would not presume to know the limits of God's power, and therefore whatever I could dream, the truth is certainly more, not less.
 
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Kristos

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it is, but that assumes that evolution and survival of the fittest happened after the Fall. I have no qualms with evolution in the post Fall world, but for there to be a post Fall world there must be a pre Fall world as well.

Very true. Science is completely limited to observation of the post-fall world, and furthermore, limited to the physical/material by definition (which is self-imposed by methodology).
 
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rusmeister

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Very true. Science is completely limited to observation of the post-fall world, and furthermore, limited to the physical/material by definition (which is self-imposed by methodology).

This is one of the things that confuses me the most in this view. I'm totally willing to set my own views aside here to consider this. Where is Adam in all this? Did he evolve or was he specially created? Did, as most modern science shouts at us, he develop from a single cell over a million years, with death all along the way, or was it beings peacefully changing from that single cell into what became man?
The narrative of evolution, as I understand it, depends totally on the presence of death. How does the Christian fit the Fall into the narrative? Before any evolution? (In which case man, being already evolved into what we recognize as man, is outside of that evolutionary picture; ie, non-evolving, which puts you at odds with evolutionary science as I understand it.) Or after a single cell being evolved into man with neither sin nor death (which as far as I can tell ALSO puts you wildly at odds with evolutionary science).
Or is there a third explanation, which makes sense of the apparent contradictions?
 
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ArmyMatt

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Very true. Science is completely limited to observation of the post-fall world, and furthermore, limited to the physical/material by definition (which is self-imposed by methodology).

so, then if one agrees that science can only look at the world in its post Fallen state, then one must assert that there is a Fall and that asking questions (like pre Fall digestion) have no answer we can give because that is outside of our realm of experience.
 
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jckstraw72

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so, then if one agrees that science can only look at the world in its post Fallen state, then one must assert that there is a Fall and that asking questions (like pre Fall digestion) have no answer we can give because that is outside of our realm of experience.

and if science can only speak to post-Fall, how could we possibly claim that man is a product of evolution?
 
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ArmyMatt

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and if science can only speak to post-Fall, how could we possibly claim that man is a product of evolution?

that is the $8 million question. how do we apply post Fallen conditions, on a pre Fallen universe, and expect to get any answers? and with that, why do we insist that we do so?
 
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"that is the $8 million question. how do we apply post Fallen conditions, on a pre Fallen universe, and expect to get any answers? and with that, why do we insist that we do so?"

Indeed, why do we? (this is directed at the posters who are against evolution). Energy and time should be spent rather on combating the ideologies and philosophies behind the formation of such theories as evolution!
 
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ArmyMatt

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"that is the $8 million question. how do we apply post Fallen conditions, on a pre Fallen universe, and expect to get any answers? and with that, why do we insist that we do so?"

Indeed, why do we? (this is directed at the posters who are against evolution). Energy and time should be spent rather on combating the ideologies and philosophies behind the formation of such theories as evolution!

what? what is the difference?
 
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gzt

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One suggestion is due to CS Lewis in The Problem of Pain.
“For long centuries God perfected the animal form which was to become the vehicle of humanity and the image of Himself. He gave it hands whose thumb could be applied to each of the fingers, and jaws and teeth and throat capable of articulation, and a brain sufficiently complex to execute all the material motions whereby rational thought is incarnated. The creature may have existed for ages in this state before it became man: it may even have been clever enough to make things which a modern archaeologist would accept as proof of its humanity. But it was only an animal because all its physical and psychical processes were directed to purely material and natural ends. Then, in the fullness of time, God caused to descend upon this organism, both on its psychology and physiology, a new kind of consciousness which could say ‘I’ and ‘me,’ which could look upon itself as an object, which knew God, which could make judgments of truth, beauty, and goodness, and which was so far above time that it could perceive time flowing past.”
The authors in the Orthodox Wiki article have other suggestions when the question comes up.
 
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Christos Anesti

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Hello everyone, Long time no see :)

Our inability to reconcile the Biblical account of death entering the world with sin and the overwhelming physical / scientific evidence of evolution doesn't mean we have to reject the later. There is no guarantee that any individual Orthodox will have the intellectual and imaginative power to reconcile every mystery or paradox in the world. Sometimes it's ok to claim ignorance. God willing we will get some of our scientifically literate theologians to work out a method of synthesis. It might take decades or even centuries to finally hash it out in a manner acceptable to the Church but I wouldn't give up hope that such a thing is possible. The Roman Catholic Church already has a bit of head start here. Yes, some of the starts may have been false starts like with Teilhard de Chardin but there do seem to be a lot of people there taking the task seriously.

On a related note... Does anyone know of any Orthodox theologians who are working at the task of integrating our knowledge of evolution within the bounds of our Orthodox faith and tradition? Any books to suggest?
 
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jckstraw72

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Hello everyone, Long time no see :)

Our inability to reconcile the Biblical account of death entering the world with sin and the overwhelming physical / scientific evidence of evolution doesn't mean we have to reject the later. There is no guarantee that any individual Orthodox will have the intellectual and imaginative power to reconcile every mystery or paradox in the world. Sometimes it's ok to claim ignorance. God willing we will get some of our scientifically literate theologians to work out a method of synthesis. It might take decades or even centuries to finally hash it out in a manner acceptable to the Church but I wouldn't give up hope that such a thing is possible. The Roman Catholic Church already has a bit of head start here. Yes, some of the starts may have been false starts like with Teilhard de Chardin but there do seem to be a lot of people there taking the task seriously.

On a related note... Does anyone know of any Orthodox theologians who are working at the task of integrating our knowledge of evolution within the bounds of our Orthodox faith and tradition? Any books to suggest?

there are people making these attempts. the interesting thing is to examine whether or not they have really harmonized the Orthodox faith and evolution, or whether they have had to tinker with one or the other. i have yet to find an actual harmonization -- i always see tinkering -- which only demonstrates that they aren't truly compatible!
 
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I'd just like one, dude, just ONE poster who is pro-evolution to explain their theory of how the narrative went! Just one! I'd love to hear the story....In the beginning God made this single-celled organism that ascended into....and became...and eventually __________ happened. During this time man was not yet Man but just a flux. Death was in the world and it was ok. Then suddenly our First Parents sprang up and it was "good" as Genesis says and there was no sin, then the Fall occurred and there was sin and death again...then..

What is the actual coherent narrative? What is your vision, evolutionists, of how it happened? Any speculation would be appreciated, but how do you reconcile it with the Fall, God making everything GOOD and WITHOUT SIN AND DEATH, and fit it with what we know the Fathers, Scripture, the Church, and saints have taught?
there are people making these attempts. the interesting thing is to examine whether or not they have really harmonized the Orthodox faith and evolution, or whether they have had to tinker with one or the other. i have yet to find an actual harmonization -- i always see tinkering -- which only demonstrates that they aren't truly compatible!
 
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rusmeister

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"because my points seem to go unaddressed"

I feel the same way too.

I'd just like one, dude, just ONE poster who is pro-evolution to explain their theory of how the narrative went! Just one! I'd love to hear the story....In the beginning God made this single-celled organism that ascended into....and became...and eventually __________ happened. During this time man was not yet Man but just a flux. Death was in the world and it was ok. Then suddenly our First Parents sprang up and it was "good" as Genesis says and there was no sin, then the Fall occurred and there was sin and death again...then..

What is the actual coherent narrative? What is your vision, evolutionists, of how it happened? Any speculation would be appreciated, but how do you reconcile it with the Fall, God making everything GOOD and WITHOUT SIN AND DEATH, and fit it with what we know the Fathers, Scripture, the Church, and saints have taught?

I think that we who are skeptical of human evolution are totally open to hearing this narrative. The quote by CS Lewis was of no help at all. It didn't flesh out the issue of how an animal that was not man lived in a world (of death?) or clarify the narrative.

I, too, am waiting to hear that story...
 
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Kristos

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I will correct you because you are wrong. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that sexual immorality can be justified using evolution as a go-to explanation and only encourages human beings to think more and more that they are merely sophisticated animals who cannot control themselves. Show me where I'm wrong? You've never heard anyone claim that we're just all animals of a higher order on an evolutionary chain and that monogamy is unnatural and unfair to expect in a human being? Jeez, Kristos, if I had a buck for every time I've heard that lame argument, I'd be retired and not needing a pension!

Evolution is wrong because it is bad theologically. I think we've all laid that out clearly in here. But JUSTIFICATION for sexual immorality is a byproduct.

Further confusion on my part because you say I'm wrong and then you continue to explain how I am correct...

Logically you have not connected the validity of theory with the morality of its telos. And you can't - it's another pleonastic fallacy. It's like saying that the internet doesn't exist because internet porn is bad.

Neither does it matter how many people repeat it.
 
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