Is the seventh day the Sabbath?

[JacobLaw]

Nope, My church's doctrine traces back to the writings of the Bible which traces back to the authors of the Bible which traces back to themselves, not the "catholic" or Roman Catholic churches.

Totally agree, and especially not the Roman Catholic system.

Hebrews 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

 

[Elder 111]

Sure I am. You clearly identify with the RCC to form a straw man argument:

Sophrosyne and I agree that your dependence on a Catholic source is a fallacy you appeal to because you don't accept the Biblical record. Your claim that the doctrines we accept originate with Catholicism is patently wrong, and you cannot document our use of Catholic source material anywhere in any of our posts.

All of this deflection was foreseen, as I mentioned to 'from scratch' in a recent post:

Sure enough, when I dropped a post citing two chapters in the Bible into your lap, you showed that you don't have any comment on that Biblical record you can't reconcile your beliefs with:

You didn't respond to the content presented to you. When you do this, it forces the conclusion that you openly rejected the record documented in Exodus 16 and Nehemiah 9. To repeat what I posted earlier: That is the nature of Adventism, depending on a straw man to justify its existence rather than forming a Biblical world view to base its belief system.

1. Your doctrines may have varies slightly over the year but they originated with the Catholic Church and you still maintain one in particular and that is Sunday. You have tried to justify it biblically but God never ordained it.
2. The Sabbath did not start in Exodus 16. You maintain that by reject the the Seventh day of Genesis 2 as being the Sabbath and also by rejecting God.s own account of Exodus 20:8-11. That is why I did not reply, once you have reject plain scripture there is no way of accepting truth. The Seventh day is the Sabbath!

 

[Elder 111]

If everyone knows how to play Tag, you don't have to explain how to play tag before you do it. If everyone was already familiar with keeping the Sabbath then they would have known to gather extra manna before it just as if Moses knew about how to keep the Sabbath he wouldn't have had to ask what to do about someone caught picking up sticks.

That is not the case. Look how many times it was repeated. It was not mentioned in Exodus 16 and never repeated again. Over and over again God reinforced His law. Not a valid argument.

 

[Elder 111]

mmmmh I thought that was the topic?
What about 6 days of work do you do that also?
or do you not work every one of those 6 days?
How about someone taking a vacation are they breaking the Sabbath because they didn't work every day except the Sabbath?
Not even sure if anyone know what day the Sabbath is either?
So much wrong with understanding your rituals; do you have an outline of your commandment rituals?

Anyone searching for truth will know which day is the Seventh day Sabbath. The bible leave no dough where that is concern.
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
There is no difficulty with understanding the above. Leave you own business (pleasure would be included) on the Sabbath, it is special to the Lord. It is Holy time. A cathedral in time.

 

[Elder 111]

LOL, you sound very disagreeable, chuckle, maybe you can answer your own question how did Jesus fulfill the Sabbath, after all he fulfilled the law didn't he?
O yea, that's my point about a ritual tell me the ritual you go through to fulfill the law, maybe there is a method or something, you seem to be fairly confident with what you think, lets hear your conclusions on the matter.

Does fulfill mean removed, abolished, gotten rid of? What does it mean?

 

[Elder 111]

I think everyone who reads this thread should vote "don't care" to truly show how most Christians truly feel about the "importance" of the Sabbath for us.

Is that the position of Christianity? Makes God statement in Revelation 14 and 18 to be correct.
And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
Christianity with all it's confused doctrines and conflicting ideas and interpretations of scripture has fallen from purity, salvation and grace.

 

[from scratch]

That is not the case. Look how many times it was repeated. It was not mentioned in Exodus 16 and never repeated again. Over and over again God reinforced His law. Not a valid argument.

I'm told not to laugh, but you're extremely funny. You should find employment as a comedian.

 

[from scratch]

Anyone searching for truth will know which day is the Seventh day Sabbath. The bible leave no dough where that is concern.
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
There is no difficulty with understanding the above. Leave you own business (pleasure would be included) on the Sabbath, it is special to the Lord. It is Holy time. A cathedral in time.

Why don't you comply?

 

[from scratch]

Does fulfill mean removed, abolished, gotten rid of? What does it mean?

No, it means complete and retire an agreement by whatever name one wishes to call it.

 

[Sophrosyne]

That is not the case. Look how many times it was repeated. It was not mentioned in Exodus 16 and never repeated again. Over and over again God reinforced His law. Not a valid argument.

Your logic is non existent here. I presented proof that in the manna situation it appears nobody knew what a Sabbath was to even keep. I prove Moses new nothing about penalties for breaking it such that he had to ask God what to do when they caught a man breaking it instead of just enforcing it like they should have known all along. Essentially the onus is upon you to prove people knew about the Sabbath and all I have ever seen from Sabbath promoters in this forum is arguments from silence. You would have us logically believe against logic itself that people were keeping it from Adam onward. I would say one other thing that probably works entirely against your illogical idea that they were keeping the Sabbath in that when they were enslaved for 400 years I seriously doubt that Pharaoh gave a damn about them having to keep the Sabbath and probably beat them senseless when he wanted more work out of them on that day just as if it was any day of the week... In other words they couldn't keep it if they wanted to. 400 years of being unable to keep the Sabbath is about 20 generations I would say. We hear nothing of it in the Bible which makes me either conclude that the Sabbath was nothing to them till Moses otherwise they would be upset that they were unable to keep it and God would have mentioned that he was upset that Pharaoh wouldn't allow it......
The silence about the Sabbath till Moses... till the Manna incident is so deafening that even a hearing aid won't help you in this quest.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Is that the position of Christianity? Makes God statement in Revelation 14 and 18 to be correct.
And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
Christianity with all it's confused doctrines and conflicting ideas and interpretations of scripture has fallen from purity, salvation and grace.

I wouldn't say Christianity is confused at all, but rather your convoluted theology is so conflicted that logic itself escapes the rather blatant fact that no matter how you spin it the Sabbath was unproven to be existing as a 1 day a week ceremony till Moses and that in the New Testament it is not seen in any way shape or form as some exalted ceremony that approaches a level of deity itself that you apply to it.
Typically logic makes the assumption that something isn't... till one has proof that it is which you haven't done at all here. You try to connect the dots but there isn't any dots from Genesis to Moses time and when one examines the dots one could conclude they aren't even the same type of dot to begin with so one wonders if they could even logically be connected. We don't see but a huge omission of dots in the New testament. With all this lacking of dots to connect you want us to believe there is a solid line that exists? Logically I can not conclude any line exists if there isn't even dots to suggest a line could be even connected between them and dots themselves are in no way, shape, form, or fashion proof of existence of lines, lines are proof of existence of lines.

 

[mercy1061]

LOL, you sound very disagreeable, chuckle, maybe you can answer your own question how did Jesus fulfill the Sabbath, after all he fulfilled the law didn't he?

Let me rephrase my question, what verse(s) are you using to justify that the law or sabbath has been fulfuilled? You stated the law is fulfilled, so how is the law fulfilled?

O yea, that's my point about a ritual tell me the ritual you go through to fulfill the law, maybe there is a method or something, you seem to be fairly confident with what you think, lets hear your conclusions on the matter.

You mentioned rituals; what are rituals? You should define terms BEFORE you use them.

 

[mercy1061]

Your logic is non existent here. I presented proof that in the manna situation it appears nobody knew what a Sabbath was to even keep. I prove Moses new nothing about penalties for breaking it such that he had to ask God what to do when they caught a man breaking it instead of just enforcing it like they should have known all along. Essentially the onus is upon you to prove people knew about the Sabbath and all I have ever seen from Sabbath promoters in this forum is arguments from silence. You would have us logically believe against logic itself that people were keeping it from Adam onward. I would say one other thing that probably works entirely against your illogical idea that they were keeping the Sabbath in that when they were enslaved for 400 years I seriously doubt that Pharaoh gave a damn about them having to keep the Sabbath and probably beat them senseless when he wanted more work out of them on that day just as if it was any day of the week... In other words they couldn't keep it if they wanted to. 400 years of being unable to keep the Sabbath is about 20 generations I would say. We hear nothing of it in the Bible which makes me either conclude that the Sabbath was nothing to them till Moses otherwise they would be upset that they were unable to keep it and God would have mentioned that he was upset that Pharaoh wouldn't allow it......
The silence about the Sabbath till Moses... till the Manna incident is so deafening that even a hearing aid won't help you in this quest.

It is obvious Israel did not obey the rules for gathering manna, they gathered extra manna when it was not even the 6th day; as a result what they gathered spoiled. You do not want what you gather up to become spoiled. However what they gathered for the Sabbath on the 6th day, was NEVER spoiled, they learned a valuable lesson when they gathered manna in those days, the extra portion gathered on the sixth day was very special; it was the only manna that was able to be preserved until the next day. I guess you would have to be living back then, gathering manna; connecting the dots; "drawing line in the sand" to gather what I am saying. It was not about gathering manna, it was about honoring the Sabbath's manna gathered up on the sixth day. It was a miracle for those who walked by faith in the desert.

 

[VictorC]

Your doctrines may have varies slightly over the year but they originated with the Catholic Church and you still maintain one in particular and that is Sunday. You have tried to justify it biblically but God never ordained it.

Instead of addressing the content of my post, you're going to fabricate a complete lie. That hardly garners any sympathy for your rejection of the Biblical record.

The Sabbath did not start in Exodus 16. You maintain that by reject the the Seventh day of Genesis 2 as being the Sabbath and also by rejecting God.s own account of Exodus 20:8-11. That is why I did not reply, once you have reject plain scripture there is no way of accepting truth. The Seventh day is the Sabbath!

The verb "is" denotes the present tense, and contradicts your own claim that the seventh day of the creation account -a singular event in the distant past- was a Sabbath. The Genesis account records God's rest, and not a periodic event "made for man" as Jesus differentiated the Sabbath. Even Exodus 20:8-11 draws on a preceding event as the reason to ordain the Sabbath, which by necessity indicates God's rest on the seventh day existed before the Sabbath did. You know all of this, as it has been posted before. That's the Biblical record, plain Scripture, and the one rejecting it is Elder111.

The Sabbath was Spoken into existence coincident with the manna experience, during the lifetime of Moses, as recorded in Exodus 16. You have posted nothing to suggest any other origin other than your dependence on and misrepresentation of Roman Catholic sources that you alone introduced to the forum.

 

[Elder 111]

Originally Posted by Elder 111

Does fulfill mean removed, abolished, gotten rid of? What does it mean?
​

No, it means complete and retire an agreement by whatever name one wishes to call it.

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
According to you the text could read: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to complete and retire the law and the prophets.

 

[Elder 111]

Your logic is non existent here. I presented proof that in the manna situation it appears nobody knew what a Sabbath was to even keep. I prove Moses new nothing about penalties for breaking it such that he had to ask God what to do when they caught a man breaking it instead of just enforcing it like they should have known all along. Essentially the onus is upon you to prove people knew about the Sabbath and all I have ever seen from Sabbath promoters in this forum is arguments from silence. You would have us logically believe against logic itself that people were keeping it from Adam onward. I would say one other thing that probably works entirely against your illogical idea that they were keeping the Sabbath in that when they were enslaved for 400 years I seriously doubt that Pharaoh gave a damn about them having to keep the Sabbath and probably beat them senseless when he wanted more work out of them on that day just as if it was any day of the week... In other words they couldn't keep it if they wanted to. 400 years of being unable to keep the Sabbath is about 20 generations I would say. We hear nothing of it in the Bible which makes me either conclude that the Sabbath was nothing to them till Moses otherwise they would be upset that they were unable to keep it and God would have mentioned that he was upset that Pharaoh wouldn't allow it......
The silence about the Sabbath till Moses... till the Manna incident is so deafening that even a hearing aid won't help you in this quest.

1. Thery were in Egypt 400 years but there were not enslaved for all that time.
2. Your point is very valid about Pharaoh not letting them keep the Sabbath. But because something is not mentioned does not mean it did not happen.
3. God blessed and sanctified the Sabbath from creation. Jesus said it was created for man and you still think that Adam and Eve did not keep the Sabbath along with others until Moses? Again because it was not mentioned you hold that as evidence that it never happened. Nothing is mentioned of Jesus between 12 and 30, does that mean it never happened?
4. Not every single thing that happened in the bible is recorded. Certainly if God blessed and sanctified the day and then it is recorded that He require us to keep it certainly it should be understood that it was always the case. "I am God and I change not".
5. The Sabbath was Sanctified before sin just like marriage. Why is one then seen as always being and the other not?
6. No mention is made of homosexuality being a sin but we see Sodom being destroyed for it. How should we take that? That it was OK until God changed His mind? Or that it was the case all along but it was never recorded?

 

[Elder 111]

Instead of addressing the content of my post, you're going to fabricate a complete lie. That hardly garners any sympathy for your rejection of the Biblical record.

The verb "is" denotes the present tense, and contradicts your own claim that the seventh day of the creation account -a singular event in the distant past- was a Sabbath. The Genesis account records God's rest, and not a periodic event "made for man" as Jesus differentiated the Sabbath. Even Exodus 20:8-11 draws on a preceding event as the reason to ordain the Sabbath, which by necessity indicates God's rest on the seventh day existed before the Sabbath did. You know all of this, as it has been posted before. That's the Biblical record, plain Scripture, and the one rejecting it is Elder111.

The Sabbath was Spoken into existence coincident with the manna experience, during the lifetime of Moses, as recorded in Exodus 16. You have posted nothing to suggest any other origin other than your dependence on and misrepresentation of Roman Catholic sources that you alone introduced to the forum.

As I have said, that you are trying to Justify the removal of the Sabbath.
Those who had no need to deny your claim made this statement. The Sabbath is first met with in connection with the fall of the manna (Exodus 16:22 sqq.), but it there appears as an institution already known to the Israelites. The Sinaitic legislation therefore only gave the force of law to an existing custom.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Sabbath
You have bought into the idea that the Sabbath is not for us and then seek at all lengths to justify it, even at the expense of nullifying and corrupting scripture. But others who speak of the truth, not only the Catholics, do not deny the Sabbath account and the fact that it is the Seventh Day of Genesis 2, and that it existed before Ex 16. All of this despite the fact that they still hold the view that Sunday is the day for worship.
Your position about the Sabbath and the Seventh day and God rest, as you put it, is not accepted by Sunday keepers that had rejected the Sabbath. It is totally unbiblical. You want to maintain the view then do so but that does not make it the correct one.

 

[from scratch]

Originally Posted by Elder 111

Does fulfill mean removed, abolished, gotten rid of? What does it mean?
​

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
According to you the text could read: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to complete and retire the law and the prophets.

Where has anyone spoken against the prophets here? Who is destroying the law?

Jesus said He came to complete (fulfill) the law. No one here is saying the law doesn't exist. No one here is trying to get rid of the law. You will accept no answer but the Christian is obligated to the law. Not from me or the Bible.

 

[from scratch]

1. Thery were in Egypt 400 years but there were not enslaved for all that time.
2. Your point is very valid about Pharaoh not letting them keep the Sabbath. But because something is not mentioned does not mean it did not happen.
3. God blessed and sanctified the Sabbath from creation. Jesus said it was created for man and you still think that Adam and Eve did not keep the Sabbath along with others until Moses? Again because it was not mentioned you hold that as evidence that it never happened. Nothing is mentioned of Jesus between 12 and 30, does that mean it never happened?
4. Not every single thing that happened in the bible is recorded. Certainly if God blessed and sanctified the day and then it is recorded that He require us to keep it certainly it should be understood that it was always the case. "I am God and I change not".
5. The Sabbath was Sanctified before sin just like marriage. Why is one then seen as always being and the other not?
6. No mention is made of homosexuality being a sin but we see Sodom being destroyed for it. How should we take that? That it was OK until God changed His mind? Or that it was the case all along but it was never recorded?

Elder we're not just talking about some round figure of say 400 years. There isn't any evidence in the Bible anywhere anyone observed the Sabbath until after Israel departed Egypt.

Now did God give the Sabbath as a sign to Israel or did God in fact give it to the whole world? If God gave it to the whole world why does the Book of the Law say different? If you're pitting Moses against Jesus you show the Bible to not be inspired and one of them is a liar. Who you going to discredit? If you discredit Moses you also discredit the law and the Ten Commandments. If you discredit Jesus you say God is a liar. You have a real problem on your hands.

 

[Sophrosyne]

1. Thery were in Egypt 400 years but there were not enslaved for all that time.
2. Your point is very valid about Pharaoh not letting them keep the Sabbath. But because something is not mentioned does not mean it did not happen.
3. God blessed and sanctified the Sabbath from creation. Jesus said it was created for man and you still think that Adam and Eve did not keep the Sabbath along with others until Moses? Again because it was not mentioned you hold that as evidence that it never happened. Nothing is mentioned of Jesus between 12 and 30, does that mean it never happened?
4. Not every single thing that happened in the bible is recorded. Certainly if God blessed and sanctified the day and then it is recorded that He require us to keep it certainly it should be understood that it was always the case. "I am God and I change not".
5. The Sabbath was Sanctified before sin just like marriage. Why is one then seen as always being and the other not?
6. No mention is made of homosexuality being a sin but we see Sodom being destroyed for it. How should we take that? That it was OK until God changed His mind? Or that it was the case all along but it was never recorded?

1. if they weren't slaves then why didn't the pharaoh let them leave? Why all the plagues?
2. First off you haven't proven they even knew to keep it, I was merely showing that there is a possibility that they couldn't keep a Sabbath if there was one for many generations which would make it essentially a worthless Day to them in effect.
3. This is not addressing my logical argument at all, it is just cherry picking verses to spam threads.
4. Nope, not every thing is.... but from what is recorded and logic we can assume things that would be in it and we can also assume things that in all probability would be less likely to be there. The Sabbath being kept from Adam to Moses is an extremely low possibility if one reads about it from Moses on and compares how much attention it gets and consider the lack of ANY attention given it prior to Moses. One could conclude (as you do) the Sabbath is very important such that when one sees NO notice of it then the only reason one can assume is either it is NOT important OR NOT known at all.
5. Rubbish.... absolute hogwash unproven balderdash
6. I could more easily prove homosexual sin for Christians than you can prove the Sabbath as a sin for us.