A Preterist Hermeneutic

[parousia70]

I have already addressed this. You answered your own question. "The LITERAL event of Babylon being sacked by the Medes took place in 539 BC." Everything described can be explained by natural occurrences.

"For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine." Eclipse, dark clouds and/or smoke.

"Therefore I will shake the heavens, And the earth will move out of her place," Thunder storms, tornadoes, and earthquakes.

Since you have not provided any historical evidence of earthquakes, tornados fires and eclipses happening when the Medes sacked Babylon, I must ask, If you accept and profess this without such evidence for the Medes' destruction of Babylon, why do you require something different when the same language is used to refer to the Romans sacking of Jerusalem?

5. appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: [the sky, all the tribes of the earth must see and mourn. They can't see into the abode of God.]

Note that it is not the SIGN that is in heaven but the Son of Man that is in Heaven. The Sign "appears" on earth.

 

[Der Alte]

Since you have not provided any historical evidence of earthquakes, tornados fires and eclipses happening when the Medes sacked Babylon, I must ask, If you accept and profess this without such evidence for the Medes' destruction of Babylon, why do you require something different when the same language is used to refer to the Romans sacking of Jerusalem?

You have not provided any historical evidence for anything, get back to me when you can do what your demand from me. What I have done is give logical, plausible, explanations for everything stated, rather than agenda driven wild eyed speculation to make scripture support some assumptions/presuppositions.

Note that it is not the SIGN that is in heaven but the Son of Man that is in Heaven. The Sign "appears" on earth.

That is not what scripture says "then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." The "sign" does not appear on earth, it must be seen by all the tribes of earth then they will mourn. If it is confined to one spot on earth only a few people will see it. After the "sign" then the son of man will come in the clouds, in the same way He departed.

 

[Rev20]

You have not provided any historical evidence for anything, get back to me when you can do what your demand from me. What I have done is give logical, plausible, explanations for everything stated, rather than agenda driven wild eyed speculation to make scripture support some assumptions/presuppositions.

That is not what scripture says "then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." The "sign" does not appear on earth, it must be seen by all the tribes of earth then they will mourn. If it is confined to one spot on earth only a few people will see it. After the "sign" then the son of man will come in the clouds, in the same way He departed.

This is my first post, so please bear with me. I am a partial preterist, since I believe in a future resurrection/judgement; but also believe that Matthew 24:5-31 was fulfilled in Jesus' generation, exactly like he said it would.

My question is, why is Jesus only warning those in Judaea?

Rev

 

[parousia70]

You have not provided any historical evidence for anything, get back to me when you can do what your demand from me.

Pot, meet Kettle.

I'm only asking you to provide what you demand of me.... You started with the demands of historical proof, not me, yet when pressed, you refuse to provide what you demand of others...
Nice projection though.

What I have done is give logical, plausible, explanations for everything stated, rather than agenda driven wild eyed speculation to make scripture support some assumptions/presuppositions.

Well, you have given Logical, plausible explanations you refuse to apply consistently.

That is not what scripture says "then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:

Yes.

Then shall appear the sign.
What sign?
The Sign "of the Son of Man in heaven"

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

This is my first post, so please bear with me.
I am a partial preterist, since I believe in a future resurrection/judgement; but also believe that Matthew 24:5-31 was fulfilled in Jesus' generation, exactly like he said it would.

My question is, why is Jesus only warning those in Judaea?

Rev

Welcome to CF. [Always glad to see another Preterist drop in!]
Perhaps because Judea is where Jerusalem and the Temple/Sanctuary was located.

Mat 24:16
“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."

Mar 13:14
"...... then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."

Luk 21:21
“Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains,....."

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see:Rapture refuted

The Destruction Of JERUSALEM
An Absolute and Irresistible
PROOF OF THE DIVINE ORIGIN OF
CHRISTIANITY:

..........Nero, having been informed of the defeat of Cestius, immediately appointed Vespasian, a man of tried valour, to prosecute the war against the Jews, who, assisted by his son Titus, soon collected at Ptolemais an. army of sixty thousand men.
From hence, in the spring of 67 A. D. he marched into Judea, every where spreading the most cruel havoc and devastation ; the Roman soldiers, on various occasions, sparing neither infants nor the aged.
For fifteen months Vespasian proceeded in this sanguinary career, during which period he reduced all the strong towns of Galilee, and the chief of those in Judea,.........

While Jerusalem was a prey to these ferocious and devouring factions, every part of Judea was scourged and laid waste by bands of robbers and murderers, who plundered the towns;....................

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover ......
At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country, and from distant parts, to keep the festival. How suitable and how kind, then, was the prophetic admonition of our LORD, and how clearly he into futurity when he said

"Let not them that are in the countries enter into Jerusalem." Luke xxi. 21.

..........

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/jew.htm

According to Strong's Greek Lexicon, the English word "Jewry" in this verse was translated from the Greek word #2449 Ioudaia {ee-oo-dah'-yah} feminine for the land of Judea.
Modern translations no longer use the word "Jewry" but the correct translation, "Judea," as in the New American Standard Bible:

"And after these things Jesus was walking in Galilee; for He was unwilling to walk in Judea, because the Jews were seeking to kill Him."

The New International Version uses the same word. However, these translations continue to improperly use the word "Jews" in the same verse. A consistent translation would read:

". . . He was unwilling to walk in Judea, because the Judeans were seeking to kill Him."

John 7:1 And was walking, the Jesus, after these-things, in the Galilee, for not He desired in the Judea/ioudaia <2449> to be walking, that sought to kill Him, the Judeans/ioudaioi <2453>,

.

 

[Rev20]

Welcome to CF. [Always glad to see another Preterist drop in!]
Perhaps because Judea is where Jerusalem and the Temple/Sanctuary was located.
.

Thanks. I guess I should have qualified my post somewhat better. I, too, believe that the Olivet Discourse was a prophecy of the upcoming the destruction of Jerusalem, as was the Revelation up to chapter 20. As a qualifier, I might have asked,

"If a third of the ships and creatures in the sea, a third part of the trees, and all green grass are to be destroyed or burnt up, why was the warning only to those of Judaea?"

Or, something like that.

Holford is a great author. You can get a pdf, epub, etc. of the actual book at the "Internet Archive." (I have too few posts to include links.)

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Thanks. I guess I should have qualified my post somewhat better. I, too, believe that the Olivet Discourse was a prophecy of the upcoming the destruction of Jerusalem, as was the Revelation up to chapter 20. As a qualifier, I might have asked,

"If a third of the ships and creatures in the sea, a third part of the trees, and all green grass are to be destroyed or burnt up, why was the warning only to those of Judaea?"

Or, something like that.

Holford is a great author.
You can get a pdf, epub, etc. of the actual book at the "Internet Archive." (I have too few posts to include links.)

Is this it?

https://archive.org/details/destructionofjer00holf

[Btw, thanks for that link!]

Here is another link at Preteristarchive and does a good job at relating that event to Matthew 24/Mark 13/Luke 21:

http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/h/holford-george.html

9/11/12: Free TheWord module - Holford, George Peter - The Destruction of Jerusalem

"Originally, this work had no chapters and no headings. The chapter divisions and headings have been inserted by the uploader (9-8-2012).
This public domain text can be found in numerous places online, most of which seem to be copied/pasted from one source. Numerous OCR mistakes that existed in all the online texts were corrected. Some spelling was updated, and the book was tooltipped."

[On Matthew 24:7)
"Our LORD predicted "famines" also. Of these the principal was that which Agabus foretold would happen in the days of Claudius, as related in the Acts of the Apostles............................
.
(On theSignificance of A.D.70)
"History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world ; the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament, and the powerful arguments of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derived." (preface)......................





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[Der Alte]

Pot, meet Kettle.

I'm only asking you to provide what you demand of me.... You started with the demands of historical proof, not me, yet when pressed, you refuse to provide what you demand of others...
Nice projection though.

Where is your evidence for this claim, "This is Isaiah discussing would[sic] would happen when the Medes Destroyed Babylon. (Is 13:1, 17)
The LITERAL event of Babylon being sacked by the Medes took place in 539 BC." I have not said that any specific event occurred at some specific time, if not stated in scripture. All I have done is interpret scripture in accord with the maxim "If the plain sense makes good sense, it is nonsense to look for any other sense."

Well, you have given Logical, plausible explanations you refuse to apply consistently.

Show me how I have not applied it consistently per the maxim stated above?

Then shall appear the sign.
What sign?
The Sign "of the Son of Man in heaven"

Right , "in the heaven," not a localized event, and all the tribes of the earth shall see it and mourn.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Right , "in the heaven," not a localized event, and all the tribes of the earth shall see it and mourn.

Let me ask you this.

Do you think the whole wide world was darkened at this event, or just the land in and around Judea/Jerusalem?

Matthew 27:45
From yet sixth hour darkness became upon all the Land till hour of the ninth.

Luke 23:44
Was yet the sixth hour
and darkness became over whole the Land til ninth hour.

If that is a local event, why then can't Revelation be local, espcially when a Great City and 12 of the tribes of Israel are mentioned?

Rev 2:13
&#8220;I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan's throne is. And you hold fast to My name, and did not deny My faith
even in the days in which Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.

Reve 16:10
And the fifth messenger pours out his bowl upon the throne of the beast and became the Kingdom of it having been darkened
and they gnawed the tongues of them out of the misery.


.

 

[Der Alte]

Let me ask you this.

Do you think the whole wide world was darkened at this event, or just the land in and around Judea/Jerusalem?

Matthew 27:45
From yet sixth hour darkness became upon all the Land till hour of the ninth.

Luke 23:44
Was yet the sixth hour
and darkness became over whole the Land til ninth hour.

I see the darkness as a localized occurrence. I'm not aware of any extrabiblical evidence of this happening in other areas of the world.

If that is a local event, why then can't Revelation be local, espcially when a Great City and 12 of the tribes of Israel are mentioned?

I believe I was discussing Isaiah 51:16 and Matthew 24:29-31.

Rev 2:13

“I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan's throne is. And you hold fast to My name, and did not deny My faith
even in the days in which Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.

Reve 16:10
And the fifth messenger pours out his bowl upon the throne of the beast and became the Kingdom of it having been darkened
and they gnawed the tongues of them out of the misery.

I'm not sure of the relevance of Rev 2:13. I see no relationship between Rev 16:10 and Isaiah 51:16 and Matthew 24:29-31

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I see the darkness as a localized occurrence. I'm not aware of any extrabiblical evidence of this happening in other areas of the world.
I believe I was discussing Isaiah 51:16 and Matthew 24:29-31.

I'm not sure of the relevance of Rev 2:13. I see no relationship between Rev 16:10 and Isaiah 51:16 and Matthew 24:29-31

Then why not make a thread on it if you are so obsessed with it.......

.

 

[Der Alte]

Then why not make a thread on it if you are so obsessed with it........

The specific points I have been discussing began in post #2. If you don't like the topic, then you should start a new thread. Have a nice day.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The specific points I have been discussing began in post #2. If you don't like the topic, then you should start a new thread. Have a nice day.

Ok.
I will let the OP handle it from now on

Originally Posted by A New World

A Preterist Hermeneutic

​

*SNIP*.................

Jesus' prophecy was fulfilled in Paul's lifetime, during the time of the last days generation.

Isaiah spoke figuratively of the establishment of the Old Covenant people:

"And I have put My words in your mouth; I have covered you with the shadow of My hand, That I may plant the heavens, Lay the foundations of the earth, And say to Zion, &#8216;You are My people.&#8221;

(Isaiah 51:16 NKJV).................

.

 

[Rev20]

Btw, thanks for that link!

.

You are welcome. I use that archive site a lot. It is very picky about what you enter as search text; so you may have to experiment with with various ways to present the name to get more matches.

I visit Preterist Archive a Lot. That is where I found about about Holford.

 

[parousia70]

Where is your evidence for this claim, "This is Isaiah discussing would[sic] would happen when the Medes Destroyed Babylon. (Is 13:1, 17)

Well, the evidence is, as I posted and you just quoted above, Isaiah 13:1 & 17:

13:1
The burden against Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw.

He is speaking about the destruction of Babylon. The terminology of a context cannot be expanded beyond the scope of the subject under discussion. The spectrum of language surely cannot go outside the land of Babylon.

13:17
&#8220;Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them,
Who will not regard silver;
And as for gold, they will not delight in it.

The LITERAL event of Babylon being sacked by the Medes took place in 539 BC."

I have not said that any specific event occurred at some specific time, if not stated in scripture. All I have done is interpret scripture in accord with the maxim "If the plain sense makes good sense, it is nonsense to look for any other sense."

My Bad then... Seemed to me when you said this:

Originally Posted by Der Alter View Post
I have already addressed this. You answered your own question. "The LITERAL event of Babylon being sacked by the Medes took place in 539 BC." Everything described can be explained by natural occurrences.

"For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine." Eclipse, dark clouds and/or smoke.

"Therefore I will shake the heavens, And the earth will move out of her place," Thunder storms, tornadoes, and earthquakes.

...You were ascribing earthquatkes, tornados, etc to the timeframe and local of the 539 BC Sacking of Babylon by the Medes.

Since you are now saying you didn't mean to say that, What did you really mean to convey when you said the above then?

 

[Der Alte]

Well, the evidence is, as I posted and you just quoted above, Isaiah 13:1 & 17:

13:1
The burden against Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw.

He is speaking about the destruction of Babylon. The terminology of a context cannot be expanded beyond the scope of the subject under discussion. The spectrum of language surely cannot go outside the land of Babylon.

13:17
“Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them,
Who will not regard silver;
And as for gold, they will not delight in it.

The LITERAL event of Babylon being sacked by the Medes took place in 539 BC."

That is a prophecy, not a description of the actual event.

My Bad then... Seemed to me when you said this:

...You were ascribing earthquatkes, tornados, etc to the timeframe and local of the 539 BC Sacking of Babylon by the Medes.

Since you are now saying you didn't mean to say that, What did you really mean to convey when you said the above then?

Still waiting for a historical reference, not prophecy, of the destruction of Babylon. Is there anything factual in any historical reference to the destruction of Babylon which in any way can be figuratively described as "the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. . . .I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger."

If heaven and earth in Isaiah refers to Israel why would Israel be shaken and removed out of her place, when Babylon is destroyed? Wait I know heaven and earth only mean Israel when it supports some figurative interpetation of NT passages.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

Btw, thanks for that link!


Here is another link at Preteristarchive and does a good job at relating that event to Matthew 24/Mark 13/Luke 21:

George Peter Holford (1767-1839) Study Archive @ PreteristArchive.com - The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterism

9/11/12: Free TheWord module - Holford, George Peter - The Destruction of Jerusalem
​

You are welcome. I use that archive site a lot. It is very picky about what you enter as search text; so you may have to experiment with with various ways to present the name to get more matches.

I visit Preterist Archive a Lot. That is where I found about about Holford.

I would think if the apostate Jews of today read it, they would more likely become Christians, and Preterist ones at that

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

The Destruction Of JERUSALEM

An Absolute and Irresistible
PROOF OF THE DIVINE ORIGIN OF
CHRISTIANITY:

"I consider the Prophecy relative to the destruction of the Jewish nation,
if there were nothing else to support Christianity, as absolutely irresistible."
(Mr. Erskine's Speech, at the Trial of Williams, for publishing Paine's Age of Reason)​

.​

 

[parousia70]

That is a prophecy, not a description of the actual event.

Yes...So?
You asked me for evidence of my claim "This is Isaiah discussing what would happen when the Medes Destroyed Babylon. (Is 13:1, 17)

I never claimed Isaiah was lamenting on what did happen when the Medes Sacked Babylon.

However, if a Prophet of God says certain things would happen during a certain event, and History coroborates that event as indeed having come to pass, then we can be absolutely certain that all phenomena the Prophet said would take place at that time, indeed took place.

Still waiting for a historical reference, not prophecy, of the destruction of Babylon. Is there anything factual in any historical reference to the destruction of Babylon which in any way can be figuratively described as "the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. . . .I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger."

Why do you want to test God?
IF we have evidence, historical or biblical, of a previously prophesied event as indeed having come to pass, we don't need extra evidence to determine if all phenomena the prophet associated with the event occurred as well.

If the Prophet says A, B & C will take place at the same time D takes place, and we have evidence, Biblical or Historical, that D did indeed take place, then we can be absolutely certain A, B & C took place as well.

If heaven and earth in Isaiah refers to Israel why would Israel be shaken and removed out of her place, when Babylon is destroyed? Wait I know heaven and earth only mean Israel when it supports some figurative interpetation of NT passages.

Definetely Heavens and Earth refer to Israel... but also nations in general such as Babylon in Isaiah 13 and Nineveh in Nahum 1.

The Context of course determined the interpretation.

This is How the Bible discusses the fall of a Nation.

 

[Der Alte]

Yes...So?
You asked me for evidence of my claim "This is Isaiah discussing what would happen when the Medes Destroyed Babylon. (Is 13:1, 17)

I never claimed Isaiah was lamenting on what did happen when the Medes Sacked Babylon.

However, if a Prophet of God says certain things would happen during a certain event, and History coroborates that event as indeed having come to pass, then we can be absolutely certain that all phenomena the Prophet said would take place at that time, indeed took place.

Can you or can you not back up this statement with any evidence "The LITERAL event of Babylon being sacked by the Medes took place in 539 BC.?"

Why do you want to test God?
IF we have evidence, historical or biblical, of a previously prophesied event as indeed having come to pass, we don't need extra evidence to determine if all phenomena the prophet associated with the event occurred as well.

If the Prophet says A, B & C will take place at the same time D takes place, and we have evidence, Biblical or Historical, that D did indeed take place, then we can be absolutely certain A, B & C took place as well.

I'm not testing God. I'm questioning preterist assumptions/presuppositions. Is there anything factual in any historical reference to the destruction of Babylon which in any way can be figuratively described as "the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. . . .I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger?" Or is it your position that all of those distinct events refer to the fall olf Babylon?

Definetely Heavens and Earth refer to Israel... but also nations in general such as Babylon in Isaiah 13 and Nineveh in Nahum 1.

The Context of course determined the interpretation.

This is How the Bible discusses the fall of a Nation.

So heaven and earth, sun, moon, stars, etc refer to just anything you want it to, to support preterist assumptions/presuppositions. For example in Isa 13:6 and 13 heaven and earth refer to the literal heaven and earth but 3 vss. later in vs. 16 it supposedly refers to Israel. Very convenient.

 

[A New World]

Yes...So?
You asked me for evidence of my claim "This is Isaiah discussing what would happen when the Medes Destroyed Babylon. (Is 13:1, 17)

I never claimed Isaiah was lamenting on what did happen when the Medes Sacked Babylon.

However, if a Prophet of God says certain things would happen during a certain event, and History coroborates that event as indeed having come to pass, then we can be absolutely certain that all phenomena the Prophet said would take place at that time, indeed took place.

Why do you want to test God?
IF we have evidence, historical or biblical, of a previously prophesied event as indeed having come to pass, we don't need extra evidence to determine if all phenomena the prophet associated with the event occurred as well.

If the Prophet says A, B & C will take place at the same time D takes place, and we have evidence, Biblical or Historical, that D did indeed take place, then we can be absolutely certain A, B & C took place as well.

Definetely Heavens and Earth refer to Israel... but also nations in general such as Babylon in Isaiah 13 and Nineveh in Nahum 1.

The Context of course determined the interpretation.

This is How the Bible discusses the fall of a Nation.

This is a great post and it confirms that the Preterist view is firmly based on logical conclusions.

May God continue to bless the pursuit of truth.