What’s the beef with non-Calvinists concerning election????

[FreeGrace2]

The WCF believes as do I that God decreed everything.

Of course He did. As in knowing all that would occur and all that He would do. But that doesn't mean that He determined (decided) what would occur. If that were true, then we's just puppets on strings.

They are saying that God predestined unconditionally - not based on what we do in time and space.

I agree; God predestines ALL believers, even the "stinky" ones. That's unconditional.

You probably have a little different twist or a "heavier" concept concerning God's relationship with time and space than most evangelicals. Great.

I don't believe that God is limited by time or space. He created all that for His creatures. Who function in time and space.

But I find it hard to believe that you really don't know what is being said in the WCF.

It was that one statement that I pointed out. It did not make sense to me, and I see that you haven't "translated" it for me.

This seems suspiciously like your claiming that Arminians would never pray like Spurgeon layed out - therefore you couldn't understand what he was getting at. Really?

Really.

P.S I've enjoyed our discussion as well. I hope it can continue.

Great!

 

[Hammster]

What a strange view of the passage! There was no leash. Just one command, which was not to touch Job physically. You really want to call that some kind of leash?

Was Satan restricted? By who?

The ONLY limit was on physically touching Job. Nothing else. All that Satan chose to do was done freely with out any leash holding him back.

Who put that limit on him?

Such answers as these clearly reveal the difficulties of understanding Scripture in Calvinism.

No they don't. But your post confirms what I've been saying about your view of the sovereignty of God.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Was Satan restricted? By who?

Who put that limit on him?

Irrelevant questions, of course. God placed only 1 limit on him, sure. But all that Satan did were his own free choices. God did NOT determine what Satan would do. He knew, of course, but that's a different thing. Satan determined what he would do.

No they don't. But your post confirms what I've been saying about your view of the sovereignty of God.

No it doesn't. Calvinism is the theology that doesn't understand His sovereignty.

 

[Hammster]

Irrelevant questions, of course. God placed only 1 limit on him, sure. But all that Satan did were his own free choices. God did NOT determine what Satan would do. He knew, of course, but that's a different thing. Satan determined what he would do.


No it doesn't. Calvinism is the theology that doesn't understand His sovereignty.

Could God have stopped Satan any time He wished? Yes.

/argument.

 

[Marvin Knox]

It was that one statement that I pointed out. It did not make sense to me, and I see that you haven't "translated" it for me.
Great!

FreeGrace2 asked,
Could you put into plain English the phrase,
"yet has He not decreed anything because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions."
Thanks. I have no idea what is being conveyed.

[FONT=&quot]“God knows all things that can take place under any particular condition. Even so – He did not decree anything by actually looking at what will happen in time and space after He creates time and space. Nor did He simply consider what would take place under some particular condition which may occur in time and space and make His decree because of that." [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]How’s that?
My best shot.
It is admittedly a difficult construction. Perhaps it made more sense in their way of speaking in early 1600's England.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]What this all clearly means however is that His ordaining of things is not conditional on any particular thing that He sees His creation doing in the future. It is based solely on what He intends for His private reasons to accomplish.

As I said in the beginning - the WCF is not scripture. Nor does it perfectly convey the truth in scripture. I do not agree with everything said. But it is clear enough even in our way of speaking to get the idea across to us.

In this group of statements I felt that it made things clear enough to get the ideas across. I still do.

P.S.
I'll be a while getting back to posts from way back at numbers 113 &114
I just couldn't resist a visit to the computer.
If I don't stay away for a while now though I'm in trouble with my wife.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

 

[EmSw]

FreeGrace2 asked,
Could you put into plain English the phrase,
"yet has He not decreed anything because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions."
Thanks. I have no idea what is being conveyed.

[FONT=&quot]“God knows all things that can take place under any particular condition. Even so – He did not decree anything by actually looking at what will happen in time and space after He creates time and space. Nor did He simply consider what would take place under some particular condition which may occur in time and space and make His decree because of that." [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]How’s that?
My best shot.
It is admittedly a difficult construction. Perhaps it made more sense in their way of speaking in early 1600's England.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]What this all clearly means however is that His ordaining of things is not conditional on any particular thing that He sees His creation doing in the future. It is based solely on what He intends for His private reasons to accomplish.

As I said in the beginning - the WCF is not scripture. Nor does it perfectly convey the truth in scripture. I do not agree with everything said. But it is clear enough even in our way of speaking to get the idea across to us.

In this group of statements I felt that it made things clear enough to get the ideas across. I still do. [/FONT]

As I have said before, an omniscient God does not plan, decree, nor determine anything, except by some future action of man. For that would suggest He did not know what would happen, and thus, had to plan, decree, and determine the outcome.

Zechariah 1:6
Yet surely My words and My statutes, Which I commanded My servants the prophets, Did they not overtake your fathers? “So they returned and said: ‘Just as the Lord of hosts determined to do to us, according to our ways and according to our deeds, So He has dealt with us.

God determines how He deals with man according to man's ways and deeds. This would include election, salvation, regeneration, and sanctification.

 

[heymikey80]

We're not talking about company presidents are we. We're talking about your statement that God doesn't relinquish control IN ANYTHING.

My statement? Cite it.

Comparing what God does to a company president, lacks all credulity.

Claiming something lacks credulity doesnt make it so.

If someone with a little power doesnt relinquish his control as you state it, why would I believe One who can override all power does?

Pp 3:21, say.

According to your POV, God elects us but doesn't give us the will or the means to do anything unless we want to. That's the weirdest definition of Sovereignty I've ever seen.

Provide support for your assertion that anyone believes as you say and I might respond. Otherwise it is burning a strawman. And we already know people are hostile to what they oppose.

There's no power being delegated, it responsibility and our own free will choice. The power is in obeying what God tells us to do. Our choice, His power. Our control.

Your opinion.

Or supply one verse that states God gives us free will the way you say it. Or even utters "free will".

 

[Marvin Knox]

As I have said before, an omniscient God does not plan, decree, nor determine anything, except by some future action of man. For that would suggest He did not know what would happen, and thus, had to plan, decree, and determine the outcome.

Zechariah 1:6
Yet surely My words and My statutes, Which I commanded My servants the prophets, Did they not overtake your fathers? “So they returned and said: ‘Just as the Lord of hosts determined to do to us, according to our ways and according to our deeds, So He has dealt with us.

God determines how He deals with man according to man's ways and deeds. This would include election, salvation, regeneration, and sanctification.

As I view it - God has made it clear that He interacts with men according to their words and actions. We agree on that much.

What you likely disagree with me on though is that God Himself determined what those actions would be in the first place and made sure they happened exactly that way. He did this precisely so He could interact with the actions of men in such a way that He would receive glory.

How He receives that glory may have to do with something He is showing to principalities and powers in another dimension. Or it may be a lesson He will show forth sometime in eternity. We'll see about that I suppose.

I see all the words and actions of men as being determined by God. They say and do them of their own will. But the first cause is God's sovereignty.

How that leaves men with true wills and how they are not robots as it were is a question worth considering and I'm sure we'll get to that question as we go along.

 

[EmSw]

As I view it - God has made it clear that He interacts with men according to their words and actions. We agree on that much.

I agree Marvin, except you you say THEIR words and actions. I will explain what I mean later in this post.

What you likely disagree with me on though is that God Himself determined what those actions would be in the first place and made sure they happened exactly that way. He did this precisely so He could interact with the actions of men in such a way that He would receive glory.

Yes, I do disagree with this, for the verse I gave does not say this. To determine what a thing or person does, is called programming. A computer will follow what it is programmed to do. I hate to say this, but a robot does what it is programmed to do.

If I program a computer to do certain things, and I hate what the computer does, then I, the programmer, am the only one to blame. I can't blame the computer for doing what I programmed it to do, can I?

Also, since I programmed the computer to do what I have determined for it to do, then any actions by the computer is not its actions. It is only waiting to be acted upon by the programmer. It is the same with men; since they are being acted upon, they are unable to do anything of themselves. Any actions of idle men, would be the responsibility of the programmer.

I find this is likened to a runner who has programmed all other runners to quit the race so he can win and get all the glory. How does he get any glory for determining the others to quit?

How He receives that glory may have to do with something He is showing to principalities and powers in another dimension. Or it may be a lesson He will show forth sometime in eternity. We'll see about that I suppose.

I believe God gets glory from man, when man determines from himself, to read, understand, trust, and obey His word.

I see all the words and actions of men as being determined by God. They say and do them of their own will. But the first cause is God's sovereignty.

This is called an oxymoron to say God determines man's actions but man does them of his own will.

How that leaves men with true wills and how they are not robots as it were is a question worth considering and I'm sure we'll get to that question as we go along.

To say I program a computer to determine how it acts, and then say the computer acts on its own, is to put reason to sleep. Man's reason and understanding, when lifted into the light of Heaven, would see the folly of such a statement.

If a man only acts by the determination of another, then it cannot be called his own. If I work for a company which makes useful widgets, and I make them by the company's policy, standards, and blueprint, then I surely can't say the widgets are mine, which came from my own will and invention.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Could God have stopped Satan any time He wished? Yes.

/argument.

Totally irrelevant to reality. As usual. God DIDN'T stop him. In fact, God PERMITTED him to do WHATEVER he wanted to do against Job EXCEPT touch him the first time, or take his life the second time.

All that Satan did to Job was Satan's CHOICE.

Can this be refuted? And stay within reality this time.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 asked,
Could you put into plain English the phrase,
"yet has He not decreed anything because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions."
Thanks. I have no idea what is being conveyed.

“God knows all things that can take place under any particular condition. Even so – He did not decree anything by actually looking at what will happen in time and space after He creates time and space. Nor did He simply consider what would take place under some particular condition which may occur in time and space and make His decree because of that."
How’s that?
My best shot.

You did a good job of telling me what it didn't say, but not what it actually says.

I still don't know what is meant by "decreed". Bottom line: does God decide all that occurs or not?

What this all clearly means however is that His ordaining of things is not conditional on any particular thing that He sees His creation doing in the future. It is based solely on what He intends for His private reasons to accomplish.

Sounds as if your view is that God does decide all that occurs.

As I said in the beginning - the WCF is not scripture. Nor does it perfectly convey the truth in scripture. I do not agree with everything said. But it is clear enough even in our way of speaking to get the idea across to us.

And the idea about what God ordains and isn't the author of is still contradictory. Totally.

 

[FreeGrace2]

As I view it - God has made it clear that He interacts with men according to their words and actions. We agree on that much.

What you likely disagree with me on though is that God Himself determined what those actions would be in the first place and made sure they happened exactly that way.

If this is true, then God IS most assuredly the AUTHOR of sin. No way around it. If He DETERMINES all actions, then He has AUTHORED all of them. This proves that the WCF is contradictory in its claim that God ordained all things, but isn't the author of sin. Impossible.

He did this precisely so He could interact with the actions of men in such a way that He would receive glory.

By "interaction", I see puppet strings all over the place. That's not interaction. You've just said in BOLD no less, that God Himself determines what those actions would be and makes sure they happen exactly that way (His way).

How He receives that glory may have to do with something He is showing to principalities and powers in another dimension.

Like giving them a puppet show, or something? How's that give Him glory?

What does give God glory is when creatures freely believe what He says, and loves Him in spite of circumstances (ie: Job).

I see all the words and actions of men as being determined by God.

I've heard the language of truck drivers, and such, and I strongly disagree with your view here. To claim that God determines the sins of men is blasphemous to me.

They say and do them of their own will. But the first cause is God's sovereignty.

Just doublespeak here. It CANNOT be of their own will IF God first determined what actions would occur and then made sure it happened that way.

What's you've described is theological puppetry. Nothing less.

How that leaves men with true wills and how they are not robots as it were is a question worth considering and I'm sure we'll get to that question as we go along.

Well, we're here NOW with it. You've just dug a very large hole that I'm sure no one will be able to climb out of.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I agree Marvin, except you you say THEIR words and actions. I will explain what I mean later in this post.

Yes, I do disagree with this, for the verse I gave does not say this. To determine what a thing or person does, is called programming. A computer will follow what it is programmed to do. I hate to say this, but a robot does what it is programmed to do.

If I program a computer to do certain things, and I hate what the computer does, then I, the programmer, am the only one to blame. I can't blame the computer for doing what I programmed it to do, can I?

Extremely well said!!

Also, since I programmed the computer to do what I have determined for it to do, then any actions by the computer is not its actions. It is only waiting to be acted upon by the programmer. It is the same with men; since they are being acted upon, they are unable to do anything of themselves. Any actions of idle men, would be the responsibility of the programmer.

Bingo!

I find this is likened to a runner who has programmed all other runners to quit the race so he can win and get all the glory. How does he get any glory for determining the others to quit?

Excellent!

I believe God gets glory from man, when man determines from himself, to read, understand, trust, and obey His word.

Exactly!

This is called an oxymoron to say God determines man's actions but man does them of his own will.

There are other words, but let's stick with oxymoron.

To say I program a computer to determine how it acts, and then say the computer acts on its own, is to put reason to sleep. Man's reason and understanding, when lifted into the light of Heaven, would see the folly of such a statement.

If a man only acts by the determination of another, then it cannot be called his own. If I work for a company which makes useful widgets, and I make them by the company's policy, standards, and blueprint, then I surely can't say the widgets are mine, which came from my own will and invention.

Thank you for such an eloquent post.

 

[Hammster]

Totally irrelevant to reality. As usual. God DIDN'T stop him. In fact, God PERMITTED him to do WHATEVER he wanted to do against Job EXCEPT touch him the first time, or take his life the second time.

All that Satan did to Job was Satan's CHOICE.

Can this be refuted? And stay within reality this time.

So God subjected Himself to Satan? The obvious answer is No. So who was sovereign? God. Always. Over everything. Even in PERMITTING Satan to do almost all he pleased.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So God subjected Himself to Satan?

Why would anyone think that I believe that nonsense??? Did I ever say that, or even hint at that junk? Of course not. Your questions are quite disturbing. Clearly indicating that you're not either following my posts, or that you've not understood them.

The obvious answer is No. So who was sovereign? God. Always. Over everything. Even in PERMITTING Satan to do almost all he pleased.

Not the point. I've always said that God is sovereign, but it seems that Calvinists just don't want to admit that God permits others to act freely. Why is that?

It is clear from Job 1 and 2 that Satan acted freely in both events. God gave him only 1 restriction for each event, otherwise, Satan decided, determined, and ordained all that he did.

Is your view that God determined what Satan did to Job? Yes or no.

 

[Hammster]

Why would anyone think that I believe that nonsense??? Did I ever say that, or even hint at that junk? Of course not. Your questions are quite disturbing. Clearly indicating that you're not either following my posts, or that you've not understood them.


Not the point. I've always said that God is sovereign, but it seems that Calvinists just don't want to admit that God permits others to act freely. Why is that?

It is clear from Job 1 and 2 that Satan acted freely in both events. God gave him only 1 restriction for each event, otherwise, Satan decided, determined, and ordained all that he did.

Is your view that God determined what Satan did to Job? Yes or no.

By God permitting men to act freely, He is doing so sovereignly. But He always has a purpose for doing so. That's what we believe.

 

[Skala]

Nonsense. The problem is that Calvinists overstate His sovereignty, making Him the determiner of EVERYTHING

That's not a problem since He is perfect, just and holy and cannot make mistakes.

But thank you for demonstrating that you have a "problem" with God being in control. Maybe Christianity isn't for you?

 

[FreeGrace2]

By God permitting men to act freely, He is doing so sovereignly. But He always has a purpose for doing so. That's what we believe.

One of your own has said today that God determines all that occurs. Then he said that what God has determined men freely carry out. Amazing contradiction.

Everything that God does is because He is sovereign. But that doesn't mean that He determines the actions and thoughts of men. On occasion, He does influence people, but there is no evidence from Scripture that He determines ALL of what men do or think.

I've never questioned or challenged that what God does has a purpose, so I'm not sure why the "sermon" here.

But RT also believes that Christ didn't die for everyone and that God chooses who will believe. These 2 points cannot be supported by Scripture because it doesn't teach either one.

That means RT was built on a faulty premise.

If I'm wrong, please direct me to the passages that really do teach these 2 premises of Calvinism. Then I'll convert. I promise.

btw, by admitting that God permits man to act freely, that's what I mean by free will.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So God subjected Himself to Satan?

Why are all your questions so irrelevant to the dissuasion? Where did I ever say or even suggest that God subjected Himself to Satan? I'm beginning to understand from your wildly incorrect "reading" of my posts how you also misread Scripture so badly.

The obvious answer is No. So who was sovereign? God. Always. Over everything. Even in PERMITTING Satan to do almost all he pleased.

I've never said that God is not sovereign. But I'm glad you agree that man and Satan has free will to act freely, even when it's against God and His will.

btw, please exegete this verse for me.

Job 2:3
The LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man fearing God and turning away from evil. And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him to ruin him without cause.”

I'm interested in how RT reads it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

That's not a problem since He is perfect, just and holy and cannot make mistakes.

That doesn't cover the PROBLEM if God determines everything. That would mean He determines sin and evil. Do you really believe that????

The very fact that He is perfect, just and HOLY proves your view wrong.

Just saying because He is holy He can still determine/cause/ordain sin just doesn't cut it.

But thank you for demonstrating that you have a "problem" with God being in control.

Actually, your comment here clearly demonstrates a complete failure to grasp any part of my posts. Thanks for letting us know that.

Maybe Christianity isn't for you?

Maybe you're more confused than you could ever know.

I'll tell you what's not for me: RT. 2 of its prime premises cannot be found in Scripture:
1. Christ didn't die for everyone.
2. God chooses who will believe.

If any Calvinist can find verses that actually SAY these things, I will convert to RT. Immediately.

Actually, since Scripture clearly SAYS that Christ died for everyone, and that God choses to save believers, but not that He chooses who will believe, if anyone does find verses that SAY what RT claims concerning these 2 premises, then they will have proven Scripture to be contradictory.

That'll be interesting. But I'm not worried one bit.