Is the seventh day the Sabbath?

[robinvanpersie]

Let you tell it, Sabbath was made for God.

Almost funny.

"Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath."

 

[from scratch]

#1--Why wouldn't I bring it up considering it's what the original question concerned.

#2--"The LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and everything in them in six days; then He rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and declared it holy." {Exodus 20:11 HCSB}

#3--

#1 This is discussed so often here and there are several pages of posts I really haven't checked to see if its already in this thread.

#2 I see you're using a Bible version that doesn't use the word "wherefore". But even using the word "then" shows the 7th day Sabbath to be something else.

#3 Why no comment here? Or is it just my puter won't show it?

 

[Sophrosyne]

The only difference between believers before the cross and believers after the cross is that the former are looking forward to the cross and the latter are looking back at the cross. Both are saved by the cross and both are added to the family of God. A family of God with no timestamp.

Of course the cross HAD to happen chronologically, (at some point) to fulfill the prophecies and solidify Jesus as the Messiah, but the fact remains that Jesus was/is the way, truth and the life to everyone who believes; whether they were looking forward like Abraham, or looking back like you and me.

You are in fantasy land here, after Israel became a nation there was no way to become one of God's people other than to essentially become a Jew. Until after the cross the only non Jewish believers were prior to Moses as far as the Bible attests. Gentiles were essentially banned on "believing" on their own outside of the Old Covenant and the New Covenant started officially at the cross even though it was being ushered in prior to it it wasn't completely established until Jesus rose from the dead.

 

[Cribstyl]

Almost funny.

"Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath."

You're saying that God Sabbathed, that's funny.
The scripture says that God rested from all His work.
Sabbath is 24 hours rest from work.

Ex20 reinforce that God rested from His work in creation, not that God Sabbath or gave Sabbath at creation. The Sabbath was given to only the children of Israel as a day of rest.

Eze 20:12 and Neh 9:14 proves when and to whom God gave the sabbath

 

[Honest Al]

Hi,
Look again. I posted the first 2 points because I didn't want to lose them.

Again, take care. And maybe we can go round-and-round on a different subject some day.

P.S.--Surely we agree on one thing: "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all the mind, and with all thy soul. This if the first and great commandment. (And the second is like unto it, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.)"

 

[Cribstyl]

Hi again,
When you first posted to me, here's part of what I answered back:

"I'm not quite sure where we agree with each other, and where we don't.
I definitely agree with you when you say, "It's not saying, if you keep the 10 or 613 commandments you're showing that you love your neighbor." I also agree with you, and Paul, that we're made right with God by faith, not by keeping the law."

I'm sorry you feel I wasn't honest, but I did my best.

Al, you ignored my posting of Rom 3:21 and Rom 3:28 saying explicitly
that from now on, the law was not a part in righteousness.

So by isolating Rom 3:31 you can misinterpret that verse to say the opposite of what is being taught in context. That's not honest Al, it's predictable.

 

[robinvanpersie]

You are in fantasy land here, after Israel became a nation there was no way to become one of God's people other than to essentially become a Jew.

False.

There is no such thing Scripturally as “becoming a Jew”. In fact that is something that the Scriptures definitely warn against doing.
After Israel became a nation there was no way to become one of God’s people, other than JOINING yourself to His people through the Christ.

Same as now. Ephesians 2 can’t make it any clearer…Once far off, excluded from the citizenship of God’s people, strangers and excluded from the covenants and promises that God promised those who are His.
But now through Christ us Gentiles who were once far off, wild olive branches, strangers---are now brought near and become fellow-citizens, co-heirs with all of God’s people----not Jews according to the flesh, but those who have also and more importantly had their hearts circumcised!

For it’s not those who have Jewish blood, or of Jewish descent that are the children of the promise, but those who enter by FAITH!

You can be “of Israel” without being of God’s Israel. Romans 9:6. It’s all about the believing remnant saved by grace through faith---Gentile and Jew alike! THEN in the desert and now in 2014.

 

[Honest Al]

Al, you ignored my posting of Rom 3:21 and Rom 3:28 saying explicitly
that from now on, the law was not a part in righteousness.

So by isolating Rom 3:31 you can misinterpret that verse to say the opposite of what is being taught in context. That's not honest Al, it's predictable.

I'm sorry Cribstyl, but you're 100% wrong: Romans 3:21 & 28 do not say "that from now on, the law was not a part in righteousness." What they do say is: the law is not how we become righteous. Can't you see that Paul says what he does in verse 31 anticipating precisely what you and multitudes of others were going to conclude from those prior verses.

I don't want to push this, and as I said in my last 2 posts to Scratch, I really don't intend to continue this, but please consider this parallel point: Paul in Galatians 3:1, 2 clearly tells us that we don't receive the Holy Spirit by keeping the law, but by believing. (I'm sure we agree on that.) But he also tells us (and he certainly isn't contradicting himself), again in the book of Romans, which by the way, closely parallels Galatians, that God gives us His Holy Spirit--and that He "gave His Son to as a sacrifice for our sins"-- so that we can keep the law:

"The life-giving Spirit has freed you through Christ Jesus from the power of sin... God destroyed sin's control over us by giving us his Son as a sacrifice for our sins. He did this so that the requirements of the law would be fully accomplished by us." {Romans 8:1-4 NLT}

Take care and God Bless

 

[Honest Al]

Let me say one more thing Cribstyl,

We both have Scriptures that we feel support our view. What I have to do (and you also), is to avoid taking the Scriptures that--at least on the surface--appear to contradict my view and sweeping them under the rug. I must take all the passages you and others present to me and pray that God will guide me to rightly understand and apply them. And so must you. (Surely we should agree: "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God." Therefore it cannot contradict itself.)

If I have been anything less than perfectly honest and open with you I pray that God will show me.

And once again, as I said to Scratch, I really do want to move on to a different subject.

God Bless--and seek Him and love Him with all your heart.

 

[Sophrosyne]

False.

There is no such thing Scripturally as “becoming a Jew”. In fact that is something that the Scriptures definitely warn against doing.
After Israel became a nation there was no way to become one of God’s people, other than JOINING yourself to His people through the Christ.

Wrong, becoming a Jew had NOTHING to do with Christ, and still that hasn't changed. The proof this argument is bogus is that if it were true then ALL the Jews who rejected Christ would no longer be Jews and that people who at the time became Jews who also rejected Christ were again by your bogus claim not Jews either. If one had to be joined to Christ to become a Jew then it had to be done all the way back through the old testament even in the desert with Moses et all and we just don't see that claim supported.

Same as now. Ephesians 2 can’t make it any clearer…Once far off, excluded from the citizenship of God’s people, strangers and excluded from the covenants and promises that God promised those who are His.
But now through Christ us Gentiles who were once far off, wild olive branches, strangers---are now brought near and become fellow-citizens, co-heirs with all of God’s people----not Jews according to the flesh, but those who have also and more importantly had their hearts circumcised!

No... we see Jews having Gentiles become Jews even in the New Testament that totally rejected Christ 100% these are the citizens spoke of throughout the Bible in the OT scriptures you quote as there were no Christians back them, nothing was known about Jesus and the cross to even accept him.

For it’s not those who have Jewish blood, or of Jewish descent that are the children of the promise, but those who enter by FAITH!

Nope, Faith and Jew cannot be connected and God's chosen people ARE Israel even if they reject God (not Christians) If his covenant still stands from Moses time then rejecting Christ doesn't negate that covenant nor does it suddenly ungraft them. We see instances of them being equated as still his people even though in unbelief and them being brought into belief now if belief is required to be "his people" then they can't be such prior to faith. All scripture you are using is Israel without reference to Jesus as knowledge OR with knowledge and possible rejection or acceptance (no difference).

You can be “of Israel” without being of God’s Israel. Romans 9:6. It’s all about the believing remnant saved by grace through faith---Gentile and Jew alike! THEN in the desert and now in 2014.

NO.... of Israel isn't a spiritual sense it never was such Israel isn't like you equate and try to separate itself into two identities when the bible doesn't equate it as but one default identity and when it wants to say Israel of non believers or believers it directly equates it. Default Israel in scriptures IS that belief is not essential, just acceptance.
In other words we have people in America that are citizens that literally hate America but they are citizens some even have joined groups against us that have killed our citizens but until their citizenship is revoked or they file to somehow revoke it themselves they are americans.
We have the same thing throughout the Bible when it comes to Israel it isn't about belief at all but citizenship which in most cases is tied to heritage, DNA etc... not tied to just blindly accepting Christ and whammo you are an Israeli.....

 

[robinvanpersie]

Wrong, becoming a Jew had NOTHING to do with Christ, and still that hasn't changed. The proof this argument is bogus is that if it were true then ALL the Jews who rejected Christ would no longer be Jews and that people who at the time became Jews who also rejected Christ were again by your bogus claim not Jews either. If one had to be joined to Christ to become a Jew then it had to be done all the way back through the old testament even in the desert with Moses et all and we just don't see that claim supported.

[Rom 2:28-29 NASB]"For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God."

 

[Sophrosyne]

[Rom 2:28-29 NASB]"For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God."

Have you really read all the way through Paul's writings? Have you equated that his audience for this was JEWS and not Gentiles to begin with? Paul was telling Jews that were unaccepting of Gentiles that were Christians to look at their identity that they equate with God (as being a Jew, Israel) in a different fashion. If a Jew listening to this that rejects Gentiles follows this then in their mind circumcision is a must to be a part of God Paul has said that a Gentile who is not circumcised shares an identity in similar fashion and is connected to God similarly not because of physical identity but because of faith.
It is like equating a car (gentile) is like a truck (Jew) to help someone who thinks the only thing you can drive is trucks (Jews) once they accept the idea then driving cars (gentiles) makes sense to them instead of or alongside of trucks. It isn't telling Jews that when one is saved suddenly they become Jewish and in becoming this "spiritual Jew" they are suddenly part of Israel. This is what you are doing you are saying that since cars and trucks are alike then everyone who drives cars instead of trucks are automatically truck drivers. If it requires a different license to drive a truck than a car and only Jews can drive trucks then we have a problem here.

 

[robinvanpersie]

Have you really read all the way through Paul's writings? Have you equated that his audience for this was JEWS and not Gentiles to begin with? Paul was telling Jews that were unaccepting of Gentiles that were Christians to look at their identity that they equate with God (as being a Jew, Israel) in a different fashion. If a Jew listening to this that rejects Gentiles follows this then in their mind circumcision is a must to be a part of God Paul has said that a Gentile who is not circumcised shares an identity in similar fashion and is connected to God similarly not because of physical identity but because of faith.
It is like equating a car (gentile) is like a truck (Jew) to help someone who thinks the only thing you can drive is trucks (Jews) once they accept the idea then driving cars (gentiles) makes sense to them instead of or alongside of trucks. It isn't telling Jews that when one is saved suddenly they become Jewish and in becoming this "spiritual Jew" they are suddenly part of Israel. This is what you are doing you are saying that since cars and trucks are alike then everyone who drives cars instead of trucks are automatically truck drivers. If it requires a different license to drive a truck than a car and only Jews can drive trucks then we have a problem here.

Oh brother.

You should spend about 1 year studying Romans 9-11.
It is clear in the Scriptures that bloodline has NOTHING to do with salvation.
It was, is and always will be by grace through faith!

The obedience of God’s commandments come after coming into faith in Jesus Christ.
This is what Paul tells us in Romans 2:13 – those who have been justified become DOERS of the Law!

 

[Sophrosyne]

Oh brother.

You should spend about 1 year studying Romans 9-11.
It is clear in the Scriptures that bloodline has NOTHING to do with salvation.
It was, is and always will be by grace through faith!

The obedience of God’s commandments come after coming into faith in Jesus Christ.
This is what Paul tells us in Romans 2:13 – those who have been justified become DOERS of the Law!

You certainly conveniently cherry picked a verse out of context here is the whole area of scripture:

12 For all who have sinned [f]without the Law will also perish [g]without the Law, and all who have sinned [h]under the Law will be judged [i]by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers [j]of the Law who are [k]just before God, but the doers [l]of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have [m]the Law do [n]instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having [o]the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Now how do we get Gentiles keeping the Sabbath instinctively here? "doing things of the Law" isn't the same as keeping it otherwise Paul would have simple said that.

 

[robinvanpersie]

Now how do we get Gentiles keeping the Sabbath instinctively here? "doing things of the Law" isn't the same as keeping it otherwise Paul would have simple said that.

I wish I could take the time and explain in depth verse 11-15, but I don’t have the time…
I’ll try a condensed version.

The Gentiles in verse 13 is obviously referring to Gentile believers who have come to faith in Jesus.
In verse 13 Paul describes the Gentile believers who did not grow up with the Torah (as their Jewish counterparts)—therefore –when Gentile believers who do not have the Torah naturally, do the things of the Torah—these not having the Torah are a Torah to themselves…

Even though they did not grow up with the Torah as part of their culture and upbringing, they still prove they have the Torah by their upbringing. This is because they have the Torah written on their hearts and Torah governs the way they live.

Their conscience bears witness to the truth. When the Torah is written on the heart, the renewed conscience is governed by the indwelling Spirit Who confirms or convicts in accordance with the Torah.

After All John tells us that the Holy Spirit will lead us in ALL Truth! (not just “some truth or NT truth”)

 

[from scratch]

[Rom 2:28-29 NASB]"For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God."

This isn't a claim by Paul that in order to possess salvation one must be or become a Jew.

 

[robinvanpersie]

This isn't a claim by Paul that in order to possess salvation one must be or become a Jew.

Thank goodness it's not!

 

[from scratch]

Oh brother.

You should spend about 1 year studying Romans 9-11.
It is clear in the Scriptures that bloodline has NOTHING to do with salvation.
It was, is and always will be by grace through faith!

The obedience of God’s commandments come after coming into faith in Jesus Christ.
This is what Paul tells us in Romans 2:13 – those who have been justified become DOERS of the Law!

And there aren't any doers of the law according to the Bible starting in the Ok Testament. To say such a thing is to pit Paul against himself as a mere fool and make him a false teacher.

 

[robinvanpersie]

And there aren't any doers of the law according to the Bible starting in the Ok Testament. To say such a thing is to pit Paul against himself as a mere fool and make him a false teacher.

It's one thing to call Paul a hypocrite.

Another altogether to have an incorrect interpretation of Paul (as Peter clearly warned us)

[Luk 1:6 NASB] They were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.

[Act 21:24 NASB] take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.

 

[from scratch]

I wish I could take the time and explain in depth verse 11-15, but I don’t have the time…
I’ll try a condensed version.

The Gentiles in verse 13 is obviously referring to Gentile believers who have come to faith in Jesus.
In verse 13 Paul describes the Gentile believers who did not grow up with the Torah (as their Jewish counterparts)—therefore –when Gentile believers who do not have the Torah naturally, do the things of the Torah—these not having the Torah are a Torah to themselves…

Even though they did not grow up with the Torah as part of their culture and upbringing, they still prove they have the Torah by their upbringing. This is because they have the Torah written on their hearts and Torah governs the way they live.

Their conscience bears witness to the truth. When the Torah is written on the heart, the renewed conscience is governed by the indwelling Spirit Who confirms or convicts in accordance with the Torah.

After All John tells us that the Holy Spirit will lead us in ALL Truth! (not just “some truth or NT truth”)

Bad bologna right out of the bologna factory which has been recalled. Some refuse to return the bologna.