Things to consider about the Ten Commandments

[tzadik]

We (Gentiles) are grafted into Abraham..... and grafted in by faith as believers not into Israel at all because Israel did NOT exist till AFTER Abraham that would EXCLUDE him from the picture entirely

There you go again pulling things from thin air.

I just quoted Romans 11 for you. It doesn't get any simpler in the Scriptures.

Everyone who believes becomes part of God's Ekklesia.
One Faith.
One Ekklesia.
One Body.
One Flock.
One Lord.
One Messiah.

You are grafted in AMONG Abraham and the rest of the believers, not "into Abraham".
There's no such thing as being grafted "into Abraham" --atleast not Biblically.

 

[Sophrosyne]

There you go again pulling things from thin air.

I just quoted Romans 11 for you. It doesn't get any simpler in the Scriptures.

Everyone who believes becomes part of God's Ekklesia.
One Faith.
One Ekklesia.
One Body.
One Flock.
One Lord.
One Messiah.

You are grafted in AMONG Abraham and the rest of the believers, not "into Abraham".
There's no such thing as being grafted "into Abraham" --atleast not Biblically.

You are taking "grafting" and redefining it to suit yourself and not using the definition the Bible equates. Grafting relates to trees, roots, branches and If Abraham is the oldest root to graft into that precludes him grafting into Israel in the first place and it also makes Israel secondary to him in that he isn't the one grafting in the first place. Paul equates Abraham as the father of faith which places him as the root also.
We know you reject Paul so telling you that he sees no difference in Gentiles or Jews when it comes to faith means that grafting into a Jew as being a Jew and as the identity of such (Israel) is meaningless to Gentiles and Jews both. Israel is not the source of grafting/Messiah they proved it by REJECTING him corporately. I refuse to graft into such a nation, they are IMO corporately ABSENT of faith that Abraham had and unworthy of grafting to. I don't agree with your gobbledegook idea of one this and that on one hand then demanding it all points to Israel it is double speak IMO.
Simply put Israel isn't "one body" or flock it is a nation that as a whole rejected the Law, rejected God, rejected the Messiah. Trying to claim a "spiritual" Israel is also a bunch of nonsense as I know you will say that. Once you reject most of Israel for but a few then you are rejecting Israel for just a plain body of believers in the first place which includes Gentiles and EXCLUDES most of Israel.

 

[mercy1061]

Do you wash your veggies before eating, or do you eat dirt and all?

Is it better to eat dirt or swine? I guess dirt is dirtier than swine?

 

[mercy1061]

I agree with PHARISEE Shaul in every aspect.

If you do, then you understand that the pharisees are zealous for the law!

 

[mercy1061]

He seems to love arguing about anything having no real cause to fight for.

Judge for yourselves, is it right to eat unclean meat? If you eat unclean meat, do you become clean?

 

[mercy1061]

Surely context is a false assumption and idea.

Context is important, don't go beyond what is written.

 

[Sophrosyne]

If you do, then you understand that the pharisees are zealous for the law!

Paul wasn't zealous for the Law that is why he changed his name from Saul.
Using Pharisee Shaul is IMO a typical Messianic type tactic to confuse and obfuscate things. It is akin to the poisoning the well fallacy.

 

[mercy1061]

You haven't seen those pigs with wings? You've been cheated. Hang around and Lambster will show them to us again.

I'm also in awe that you yourself can't do (say yes or no) as you request above when we ask.

I heard someone say that "if pigs had wings they could fly"; have you eye-witnessed a flying pig? If you have you may need to seek help.

 

[mercy1061]

Dodge ball?

Are you throwing a huge ball at me?

 

[tzadik]

You are taking "grafting" and redefining it to suit yourself and not using the definition the Bible equates. Grafting relates to trees, roots, branches and If Abraham is the oldest root to graft into that precludes him grafting into Israel in the first place and it also makes Israel secondary to him in that he isn't the one grafting in the first place.

Pretty fine and dandy words…but we are grafted into a TREE and not grafted into the root. So if you know anything about grafting…it takes place in the tree. Yes the tree is takes nourishment, etc from the root…but the branches are grafted into a TREE. Who/what is the tree?!

For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree? [Romans 11:24]

 

[mercy1061]

That appears to be flagrant altering of the Bible.

I just posted the scriptures, are you still trying to hit me with a huge ball?

 

[Sophrosyne]

Context is important, don't go beyond what is written.

And do not forget ALL that is written in an chapter, like chopping verses off and forgetting to add on verses that come before and after a scripture posted that entirely changes the meaning portrayed.

 

[tzadik]

Paul wasn't zealous for the Law that is why he changed his name from Saul.
Using Pharisee Shaul is IMO a typical Messianic type tactic to confuse and obfuscate things. It is akin to the poisoning the well fallacy.

You must read your Bible with blinders on.
There is no other way you can make such a ludricous statement as "Paul wasn't zealous for the Law".

Paul kept the Law. Acts 21:24
Paul served the Law. Romans 7:25
Paul joyfully concurred with the Law. Romans 7:22
Paul called the Law Spiritual, righteous, good and holy. Romans 7:12,14
Paul believe everything that agreed with the Law. Acts 24:14

 

[mercy1061]

We'll have some dinner mints after breakfast.

I guess you could be in the pig pen trying to kiss them.

Maybe I shall do like the prodigal son and return to my father's house? Maybe I will ask the owner of the swine house, if he would shut down the slaughter house, stop washing the hogs let them play in the mud; allow the hogs to live? Have you heard the story of the three little pigs and the big bad wolf?

 

[mercy1061]

Has anyone said there are 10 commandments?

You said that you don't obey Moses, what is there to discuss? "Thou shall not bear false witness against thy brother".

 

[tzadik]

Simply put Israel isn't "one body" or flock it is a nation that as a whole rejected the Law, rejected God, rejected the Messiah.

And there’s your biggest error.

Not all Israel is Israel. Do you have any idea what Romans 9:6 is talking about?
EVEN back in the desert, it wasn’t about who had jewish blood in their vains that made them “saved” but rather it was their faith or lack of in God. Just like US today. Romans 11 also makes this clear---there was, is and will ALWAYS be a REMNANT who are saved by grace.

There is a difference between UNBELIEVING Israel and BELIEVING Israel, just like there is a difference between UNBELIEVING gentiles and BELIEVING Gentiles.

The HUGE error that you still can’t see is that BELIEVING Israel and BELIEVING Gentiles are part of the SAME GROUP!

 

[mercy1061]

You are taking "grafting" and redefining it to suit yourself and not using the definition the Bible equates. Grafting relates to trees, roots, branches and If Abraham is the oldest root to graft into that precludes him grafting into Israel in the first place and it also makes Israel secondary to him in that he isn't the one grafting in the first place. Paul equates Abraham as the father of faith which places him as the root also.
We know you reject Paul so telling you that he sees no difference in Gentiles or Jews when it comes to faith means that grafting into a Jew as being a Jew and as the identity of such (Israel) is meaningless to Gentiles and Jews both. Israel is not the source of grafting/Messiah they proved it by REJECTING him corporately. I refuse to graft into such a nation, they are IMO corporately ABSENT of faith that Abraham had and unworthy of grafting to. I don't agree with your gobbledegook idea of one this and that on one hand then demanding it all points to Israel it is double speak IMO.
Simply put Israel isn't "one body" or flock it is a nation that as a whole rejected the Law, rejected God, rejected the Messiah. Trying to claim a "spiritual" Israel is also a bunch of nonsense as I know you will say that. Once you reject most of Israel for but a few then you are rejecting Israel for just a plain body of believers in the first place which includes Gentiles and EXCLUDES most of Israel.

What does PHARISEE Shaul mean when he says grafted CONTRARY to nature?

 

[Sophrosyne]

Pretty fine and dandy words…but we are grafted into a TREE and not grafted into the root. So if you know anything about grafting…it takes place in the tree. Yes the tree is takes nourishment, etc from the root…but the branches are grafted into a TREE. Who/what is the tree?!

For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree? [Romans 11:24]

I know about grafting, and Israel isn't the tree. I see nothing in that whole chapter equating Isreal as but perhaps hardened of heart and those branches plucks off the tree. I see nothing of what tree it was.
One could say Jesus is the tree himself and we are grafted into him as in Christ there is no Jew or Gentile..... in Christ (grafted by faith)

 

[tzadik]

I know about grafting, and Israel isn't the tree. I see nothing in that whole chapter equating Isreal as but perhaps hardened of heart and those branches plucks off the tree. I see nothing of what tree it was.
One could say Jesus is the tree himself and we are grafted into him as in Christ there is no Jew or Gentile..... in Christ (grafted by faith)

My goodness...

Let me try this again...

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in AMONG THEM and became partaker WITH THEM of the rich root of the olive tree,

WHO is the THEM in verse 17???

 

[Sophrosyne]

What does PHARISEE Shaul mean when he says grafted CONTRARY to nature?

The simple thing is the saved (body of Christ) are grafted in and the unsaved (Israel as a nation) are not. One could say the tree is all of God's people but the root isn't Israel or the tree but God himself is the root of it.