Peanut Gallery-Formal Debate-Isaiah 53 is Messianic and Yeshua (Jesus) alone...

[yonah_mishael]

"the goal is to win"
Well to win would mean the position you disagree with "wins" and hence (in reality) you loose, is my point.

Let me state it more clearly so as not to confuse - the goal is to construct the most convincing argument. I can understand why someone who is committed to a specific position might have trouble with this, but it is just as Nietzsche stated (and I have quoted many times) -- "Conviction, more than lies, is the enemy of truth." If you want to discover the best argument, to find the best reasons, then take up the position that you disagree with and fight for it. Find out what kind of arguments are available to those who would support it. See if it is better even than what you would believe to be true.

How can you come to truth if you cannot do this? It was once said that no one would be ordained a rabbi until he was able to argue successfully that pork should be considered kosher.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Let me state it more clearly so as not to confuse - the goal is to construct the most convincing argument. I can understand why someone who is committed to a specific position might have trouble with this, but it is just as Nietzsche stated (and I have quoted many times) -- "Conviction, more than lies, is the enemy of truth." If you want to discover the best argument, to find the best reasons, then take up the position that you disagree with and fight for it. Find out what kind of arguments are available to those who would support it. See if it is better even than what you would believe to be true.

How can you come to truth if you cannot do this? It was once said that no one would be ordained a rabbi until he was able to argue successfully that pork should be considered kosher.

" It was once said that no one would be ordained a rabbi until he was able to argue successfully that pork should be considered kosher"

That's a cute little story, but obviously, if you really believed pork to be Kosher, you wouldn't be much of a Rabbi.

I'm questioning the human ability to really perform this thought-excercise you mention, though it certainly sounds interesting. Maybe it can be performed relative to opinions/positions that one doesn't have much investment in.

"How can you come to truth if you cannot do this?"

I'm able to change opinion and perform mental dialectic, but I don't think that is what you're describing.

 

[yonah_mishael]

No, you do not have to be convinced in order to argue for something. I can argue the pre-tribulation rapture on the basis of the New Testament from the perspective of a Protestant, but I certainly don't believe it. I just know why they believe it and what Scriptures they use to justify their thinking.

Anyway, I need to finish getting ready for my flight to New York. They're picking me up in an hour, and I need to shave, shower and throw things in my suitcases. I'm not supposed to participate in the Peanut Gallery threads anyway - until the end of the debate. It's part of the rules.

 

[Hoshiyya]

No, you do not have to be convinced in order to argue for something. I can argue the pre-tribulation rapture on the basis of the New Testament from the perspective of a Protestant, but I certainly don't believe it. I just know why they believe it and what Scriptures they use to justify their thinking.

Ok, but I would call that re-laying, rather than "arguing their position." A person with that (pre-trib etc) belief could go through all kinds of creative attempts and defend his position in ways that I, as a non-Protestant, simply could not.

 

[Tishri1]

That's absolutely right. Everyone should get involved in the process of debate. You will be able to surprise yourself. It's even better to adopt a position opposite of what you actually believe and do what you can to defend it. For example, I could take up the position that Paul was Torah observant and believed in Torah observance, and someone else from here could do their best to prove that Paul didn't believe in keeping Torah. We could go back-and-forth and see how well we could each hold our own in our respective positions. Personally, I would love to have this discussion.

As it is, I agree that others should jump into the debate forum and get involved.

Mark could take this one with you!

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Mark could take this one with you!

Yes, we could; I believe in the pre-trib rapture as much as our friend Yonah does!

Maybe Yonah and I could tag-team some protestants!

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

In this post, #12, a member asks the following:

I'm interested in this debate. http://www.christianforums.com/t7825104/#post65712909

I want to understand why our Jewish brothers DON'T see the LORD Y’shua is the Messiah.

And what Paul will say to address their concerns.

I appreciate how civil it is.

Thanks to Tishri1 and MarkRohfrietsch for advertising it.

I'm hoping that someone could answer this for him.

Thanks!

 

[aniello]

In this post, #12, a member asks the following:

"
I'm interested in this debate. http://www.christianforums.com/t7825104/#post65712909

I want to understand why our Jewish brothers DON'T see the LORD Y’shua is the Messiah.

And what Paul will say to address their concerns.

I appreciate how civil it is.

Thanks to Tishri1 and MarkRohfrietsch for advertising it.

"

I'm hoping that someone could answer this for him.

Thanks!

Hi Mark,

For decades I have queried Christians with the simple questions: "Why Jesus?" and "Why Jesus for what?"

One might say that I have been taken on many circuitous and rambling tours, verbally, seldom, if ever, arriving at a clearly incontrovertible conclusion. Amazing and frustrating to me.

Perhaps some Christian could come here and answer those simple questions, yes?

Will wait and watch, occasionally.

 

[AbbaLove]

For decades I have queried Christians with the simple questions: "Why Jesus?" and "Why Jesus for what?"

One might say that I have been taken on many circuitous and rambling tours, verbally, seldom, if ever, arriving at a clearly incontrovertible conclusion. Amazing and frustrating to me.

Have you yet to arrive at a clearly incontrovertible conclusion yourself or is it that no Christian that you’ve queried (for decades) is able to adequately articulate Yahweh’s Love for mankind to your satisfaction?

"Why Jesus?" and "Why Jesus for what?"

 

[aniello]

Have you yet to arrive at a clearly incontrovertible conclusion yourself or is it that no Christian that you’ve queried (for decades) is able to adequately articulate Yahweh’s Love for mankind to your satisfaction?


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Meaning no meanness nor trickiness, I asked my question first, I'm not fishing for a useless debate, I do not wish to do such.

It was, and is: "Why Jesus?" and "Why Jesus for what?"

 

[yonah_mishael]

Mark, we're not allowed to discuss that on this forum.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

I don't get the point of speaking in a forum or thread where somebody writes something, and somebody else decides whether the post will be allowed or not.

If I wanted to spend time having a conversation, I wouldn't do it in place that would censor what I said for their own benefit.

That's a one sided conversation.

Somebody decides to be king.


Why would I waste my time?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I don't get the point of speaking in a forum or thread where somebody writes something, and somebody else decides whether the post will be allowed or not.

If I wanted to spend time having a conversation, I wouldn't do it in place that would censor what I said for their own benefit.

That's a one sided conversation.

Somebody decides to be king.


Why would I waste my time?

Mark, we're not allowed to discuss that on this forum.

Here, no; but this member has requested clarification here: http://www.christianforums.com/t7825104/#post65712909; and I have no problem allowing an academic answer to an academic question.

I desire to keep debates fair; and to be fair to those who observe these discussions. It's not fair for them to leave with misconceptions.

I know this is a new concept, but let's indulge a member who wants to learn, instead of ones who all they want to do is stuff their own agenda down everyone's throat.

 

[yonah_mishael]

Hannibal,

By "we," I was referring to those of us who don't believe in Jesus. We're not allowed to discuss our reasons for disbelieving on this forum. I didn't mean to stop conversation for anyone else.

YM

 

[yonah_mishael]

Mark,

I have enough trouble keeping myself on topic to cover what I need to cover for the debate. If I have time at the end, I'll try to put together a more comprehensive statement of why I generally do not believe in Jesus and why Jews generally reject the concept that Jesus was the Messiah.

Regards,
YM

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Hannibal,

By "we," I was referring to those of us who don't believe in Jesus. We're not allowed to discuss our reasons for disbelieving on this forum. I didn't mean to stop conversation for anyone else.

YM

I wasn't referring to anyone in particular, just to the memory of being censored here already.

I think you should have every right to discuss your views, we are all just people who hang around together is all, what good is it if you can't express your sincere beliefs without being censored.

I think it should be at the top of the list to pay Jews a much higher level of appreciation and a higher level of liberty because what is the job of Christians other than to become all things to all people?

I mean that's what Christians say, and what Paul said.


I don't think it should be an exclusive club to only light the inside of a house, but it should be a house that instead sheds light out of its house.

How can that be done if a house is closed off where it doesn't allow the reasoning of others from other religions?


It should be the opposite, to Jews anyway.


The unbeliever should be a very honored guest, and he should have all the liberty in the world to reason with people about a Jewish Messiah.


That's why I don't talk anywhere but MJ, because I have always been censored because I was not a Christian.


I don't mind, I just found it surprising, and I spent a great deal of time on things that were deleted.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Here, no; but this member has requested clarification here: http://www.christianforums.com/t7825104/#post65712909; and I have no problem allowing an academic answer to an academic question.

I desire to keep debates fair; and to be fair to those who observe these discussions. It's not fair for them to leave with misconceptions.

I know this is a new concept, but let's indulge a member who wants to learn, instead of ones who all they want to do is stuff their own agenda down everyone's throat.

I think my problem is mostly that I am a Hillbilly


I can't never keep the rules straight, can't understand big words in general, slow witted, and I guess it feels too frustrating to follow acedimic stuff when I can't even spell it.


If I could take a speaking class or improve myself, I might enjoy professional debating, just to slow it seems.

 

[Tishri1]

Yes, we could; I believe in the pre-trib rapture as much as our friend Yonah does!

Maybe Yonah and I could tag-team some protestants!

ahhhh a doubles match

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

ahhhh a doubles match

Could be...

I think my problem is mostly that I am a Hillbilly

What's wrong with that; I eat squirrel (and just about everything else, except the wife's cat), and I like it.

I can't never keep the rules straight, can't understand big words in general, slow witted, and I guess it feels too frustrating to follow acedimic stuff when I can't even spell it.

Me, I'm as simple as dirt.

If I could take a speaking class or improve myself, I might enjoy professional debating, just to slow it seems.

Na, what you need, you already have... a sharp wit!

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Mark,

I have enough trouble keeping myself on topic to cover what I need to cover for the debate. If I have time at the end, I'll try to put together a more comprehensive statement of why I generally do not believe in Jesus and why Jews generally reject the concept that Jesus was the Messiah.

Regards,
YM

Jonah, your participation in this debate has been nothing but honorable and respectful.

I respect your desire to remain within our rules here; but since our member is trying to fathom the scope of your debate, and you do not wish to post in thread; you may offer to answer the member via Private Message; copy me if you like. I mean it, you have my support.