Peanut Gallery-Formal Debate-Isaiah 53 is Messianic and Yeshua (Jesus) alone...

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Topic: Isaiah 53 is Messianic and Yeshua (Jesus) alone fulfills the details of its prophecy.

Formal Debate is located here: http://www.christianforums.com/t7825104/#post65712909

Notes:

1. Since this is Christian Forums, the peanut gallery(s) will be subject to all of the rules here at CF; so it will be a thread where the debate and it's progress may be discussed; but debate of the topic itself will not be allowed.
2. This particular Peanut Gallery thread, located here in the MJ forum is subject to all of the rules which apply to this forum, without exception.
   

Enjoy and let's keep it civil!

Mark

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

First post is up!

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

These guys are wasting no time...
Second post is up; link to first and second posts: #2 #3 .

 

[ContraMundum]

So far nothing terribly interesting or ground-breaking. I would have preferred to have seen the discussion focussing on the ancient pre-CE interpretations and how those matter now, if at all.

 

[aniello]

So far nothing terribly interesting or ground-breaking. I would have preferred to have seen the discussion focussing on the ancient pre-CE interpretations and how those matter now, if at all.

Mmm Yeah me too, agreed. Let's let 'em proceed to the already known non-conclusion(s), mercifully quickly I hope.

Where's the popcorn and cokes?

I'll trust that a one-line summary will suffice.

 

[ContraMundum]

Mmm Yeah me too, agreed. Let's let 'em proceed to the already known non-conclusion(s), mercifully quickly I hope.

Where's the popcorn and cokes?

I'll trust that a one-line summary will suffice.

I suspect no one will change opinions about this. The problem for Yonah will always be that the Christian interpretation is not implausible. The probem for the other person is that the Jewish intepretation while horribly difficult to nail down and rather slippery- is also not implausible.

...and we're back to the resurrection. If it happened, Christians have the right interpretation and all contrary arguments are ceased. If it didn't, then we can all continue trying to find our way around Isa 53 in the dark with more opinions than there are people on the planet.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Another post is up! #5

 

[yonah_mishael]

Two more posts are up! #6 and #7

 

[HannibalFlavius]

GO YONAH YEAAHHH!!!

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

pshun2404 has posted a reply here: #8

 

[visionary]

It is hard with a debate for the conclusion to be that both are true. It was true for Israel in the day that it was prophesied, and true in its prophetic announcement that Yeshua would come and fulfill it more literally.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Sometimes I wonder if "debate" and "convincing" really is the point. It's very close to missionizing, which is the province of the imperial religions (Catholicism, Protestantism, Islam.)

Judaism practices or involves debate (Talmud) but it is between people with more agreement than disagreement and all kinds of common goals and causes. Hence Judaism is really about passing on traditions, from authority (father, rabbi) to receiver (son, talmid).

The type of debate we saw in Gnosticism and Protestantism is the same we now see among messianics. Actually, Protestants probably had generally a greater level of agreement. From a historical perspective, it should be interesting to see what happens. The messianic-gentile religion may well just die out within a hundred years and become as weird a relic of the past as are the Ophites, Cainites, Shakers and Ranters, etc.

 

[ContraMundum]

The type of debate we saw in Gnosticism and Protestantism is the same we now see among messianics. Actually, Protestants probably had generally a greater level of agreement. From a historical perspective, it should be interesting to see what happens. The messianic-gentile religion may well just die out within a hundred years and become as weird a relic of the past as are the Ophites, Cainites, Shakers and Ranters, etc.

...theoretically, you could add "Judaizers" to that list of dead movements....just sayin'. There are people that say the One Law movement is that old heresy having its "dead cat bounce" amongst confused American religionists. No doubt you've heard that.

 

[yonah_mishael]

[I have to agree with the point about "debate" not having to do with missionizing. I try to make that clear at all points in my discussions on this forum. I am interested in the discussion for the sake of the learning that is possible through disagreement and contradiction. I'm not trying to convince people here to believe like me. I'm really enjoying the back-and-forth of the debate with Paul, and I hope you are, too. I am interrupting my normal process here to reply because I want you to know that my delay in replying in the debate thread is due to my flight schedule. I'm flying to New York City tonight and will be there until Wednesday evening - back in Israel on Thursday afternoon. I wanted to let you know so that you wouldn't expect a reply immediately. I have begun my reply to Paul's latest post, but I will not finish it until I'm in New York.]

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Sometimes I wonder if "debate" and "convincing" really is the point. .

Debate has only been about learning for me, it makes a person look things up and suddenly you will understand a new concepts. It's funny how you will be writing and suddenly learn something new when it clicks.

It's just practice.

 

[Tishri1]

I hope more of you try this

 

[yonah_mishael]

I hope more of you try this

That's absolutely right. Everyone should get involved in the process of debate. You will be able to surprise yourself. It's even better to adopt a position opposite of what you actually believe and do what you can to defend it. For example, I could take up the position that Paul was Torah observant and believed in Torah observance, and someone else from here could do their best to prove that Paul didn't believe in keeping Torah. We could go back-and-forth and see how well we could each hold our own in our respective positions. Personally, I would love to have this discussion.

As it is, I agree that others should jump into the debate forum and get involved.

 

[Hoshiyya]

That's absolutely right. Everyone should get involved in the process of debate. You will be able to surprise yourself. It's even better to adopt a position opposite of what you actually believe and do what you can to defend it. For example, I could take up the position that Paul was Torah observant and believed in Torah observance, and someone else from here could do their best to prove that Paul didn't believe in keeping Torah. We could go back-and-forth and see how well we could each hold our own in our respective positions. Personally, I would love to have this discussion.

As it is, I agree that others should jump into the debate forum and get involved.

"It's even better to adopt a position opposite of what you actually believe and do what you can to defend it."

Really ?
It sounds interesting, but how does it not turn into two strawmen, each trying to be defeated first ?

 

[yonah_mishael]

Because your goal is to win and to think through the position as fully as possible. Have you never heard of this?

 

[Hoshiyya]

Because your goal is to win and to think through the position as fully as possible. Have you never heard of this?

"the goal is to win"
Well to win would mean the position you disagree with "wins" and hence (in reality) you loose, is my point.