Peanut Gallery-Formal Debate-Isaiah 53 is Messianic and Yeshua (Jesus) alone...

[yonah_mishael]

Why is the Mashiakh of Isaiah 53 NOT Yeshua?

Why is it not completely plausible at all?

Where do you see “Messiah” mentioned in Isaiah 53? How can you speak of “the Messiah of Isaiah 53” when the text itself makes no such statement? You can speak of the “servant” of the chapter, but not its “Messiah.”

 

[Hoshiyya]

Where do you see “Messiah” mentioned in Isaiah 53? How can you speak of “the Messiah of Isaiah 53” when the text itself makes no such statement? You can speak of the “servant” of the chapter, but not its “Messiah.”

if you don't accept prophecy, then obviously the servant in Isaiah cannot be any future person.

 

[yonah_mishael]

if you don't accept prophecy, then obviously the servant in Isaiah cannot be any future person.

Well, there are certainly prophecies in the Bible that discuss the coming of the Messiah. For example:

I will place over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he will tend them; he will tend them and be their shepherd. I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David will be prince among them. I the Lord have spoken. (Eze. 34.23-24 NIV)

... and say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms…. My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your ancestors lived. They and their children and their children’s children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever.’ (Eze. 37.21-22, 24-26 NIV)​

These prophecies speak of “David” being king/prince/shepherd of Israel when Israel is re-established. There are certainly messianic prophecies in the Bible. While Isaiah 53 does deal with the time of Messiah – that is, the time when Israel is to be restored and exalted – it does not deal with the person of the Messiah. It is not the Messiah that is mentioned as having suffered. It is Israel that suffered among the nations and was then exalted – and this exaltation is seen most vividly in the metaphor of the “servant of Yahweh.”

 

[Hoshiyya]

Well, there are certainly prophecies in the Bible that discuss the coming of the Messiah. For example:

I will place over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he will tend them; he will tend them and be their shepherd. I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David will be prince among them. I the Lord have spoken. (Eze. 34.23-24 NIV)

... and say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms…. My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your ancestors lived. They and their children and their children’s children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever.’ (Eze. 37.21-22, 24-26 NIV)​

These prophecies speak of “David” being king/prince/shepherd of Israel when Israel is re-established. There are certainly messianic prophecies in the Bible. While Isaiah 53 does deal with the time of Messiah – that is, the time when Israel is to be restored and exalted – it does not deal with the person of the Messiah. It is not the Messiah that is mentioned as having suffered. It is Israel that suffered among the nations and was then exalted – and this exaltation is seen most vividly in the metaphor of the “servant of Yahweh.”

The NT says the high priest of the time prophecied unknowingly when he said "it is better one die than the entire nation perish". Can prophets or authors, inspired by God, say prophecies that can be fulfilled in ways unexpected?
Isaiah 53 does not mention the word Meshiach, but per the NT (and this is the Messianic Jewish forum after all, hence acceptance of NT is de jure) it should still apply to Yeshua, according to the will of God and his mysterious intention, regardless of what Isaiah may have understood.

 

[Torah Lishmah]

Well, I thought I might get a chance to provide an answer to truthfrees' question regarding why Jews do not accept the claim that Jesus is the Messiah.

He asked me as well, so this post is to let him know I haven't forgotten about his request. I'm a little over-extended on a few different projects at the moment, but I'll answer his questions in full ASAP.

Good luck on the debate, Yonah. I have only read the first few opening posts thus far, but your doing a wonderful job. I wish you would have spent some time on the LXX's most recent scholarship though, as it has received a devastating blow for it's proponents. Check it out if you find the time, you should really enjoy it, being so knowledgeable in Greek to begin with. But it's so easy to sit back and critique someone, but not so easy to express ones thoughts with the written word as eloquently as you do. I wish I had your talent for that. Keep up the great work my friend!

 

[Josephus]

Where do you see “Messiah” mentioned in Isaiah 53? How can you speak of “the Messiah of Isaiah 53” when the text itself makes no such statement? You can speak of the “servant” of the chapter, but not its “Messiah.”

Correct. Yet you post that Mashiach is called "my 'servant' David" in other posts. Also elsewhere, in the Amidah, we say "Your servant" referring to Mashiach. So then would you agree that Is 53 could also refer to this "servant" in a kol va chomer whereas if Is 53 refers to one called "servant" then how much more so to the one who is called "Your servant" who we recognize is the epithet of Mashiach?

Hence the both-and argument, that it refers to multiple applications of the same prophecy. Hence the agreement that some here have that Is 53 is speaking of Israel (who is also called those who serve the one true G-d), and also to Mashiach, who, as part of Israel, it thus certainly refers to, and even more so since he's at the head of the nation; and even more so since scripture also calls him specifically "Your servant". Thoughts?

 

[yonah_mishael]

By this standard, we should think that the Messiah is Moses, since he is also called God's servant. Yes, the Messiah is called "my servant" in Ezekiel, but this doesn't mean that every instance of "my servant" is the Messiah. God actually has many servants. Are you not aware?

 

[Josephus]

By this standard, we should think that the Messiah is Moses, since he is also called God's servant. Yes, the Messiah is called "my servant" in Ezekiel, but this doesn't mean that every instance of "my servant" is the Messiah. God actually has many servants. Are you not aware?

Precisely, Moshe is a type of mashiach. Yes there are many who are called servant of G-d, but who are the greatest servants? Moshe and King Mashiach who is a prophet like him. Therefore to accept Is 53 referring its prophecy applied to one who is called "My servant" as excluding Mashiach, would be to diminish Mashiach and thus even Moshe himself, who you are correct in saying that they are also called G-d's servants. What do you think?

 

[yonah_mishael]

Conflation of terms, simplification of the case presented in the chapter, and irrational sophistry. That's what I think.

 

[Truthfrees]

Well, I thought I might get a chance to provide an answer to truthfrees' question regarding why Jews do not accept the claim that Jesus is the Messiah.

He asked me as well, so this post is to let him know I haven't forgotten about his request. I'm a little over-extended on a few different projects at the moment, but I'll answer his questions in full ASAP.

Thanks to you both.

I realize you're busy and will wait for your posts.

 

[yonah_mishael]

I've been working on my response to truthfrees, and I've written up nine pages so far. If anyone would like to read through it, contact me by PM.