US swaps 5 Gitmo prisoners for US soldiers release, but many questions remain

[Vylo]

The myth of the October Surprise.

It's like a liberal version of "BENGHAZI!". Seriously, even the democrats in congress were like "lol nope" when an investigation was suggested. Some of the hostages eventually got them to happen, but nothing of the sort was ever found.

 

[TimotheosVII]

Off the top of my head, this is to my knowledge the only president who has assumed executive order to include breaking the law. I am sure a deeper look into previous administrations would reveal otherwise. If there are other examples in American history please enlighten. This would be an interesting discussion.

 

[Vylo]

Off the top of my head, this is to my knowledge the only president who has assumed executive order to include breaking the law. I am sure a deeper look into previous administrations would reveal otherwise. If there are other examples in American history please enlighten. This would be an interesting discussion.

Could you clarify what you mean?

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Off the top of my head, this is to my knowledge the only president who has assumed executive order to include breaking the law. I am sure a deeper look into previous administrations would reveal otherwise. If there are other examples in American history please enlighten. This would be an interesting discussion.

The whole idea of executive order is to bypass law, I think.

 

[Vylo]

The whole idea of executive order is to bypass law, I think.

Executive orders are effectively the law, so yeah, it gets kind of weird and sketchy.

Obama hasn't used as many as W, even adjusted for time, but he could still aim high .

Clinton and Reagan beat both of them.

FDR crushes everyone in pure number and frequency with over 3,500 issued.

 

[JustOneWay]

The whole idea of executive order is to bypass law, I think.

The whole idea of Executive Orders is to bypass Congress.

 

[SaphireOwl]

National Archives Executive Orders Disposition Tables Index


Executive Order
A presidential policy directive that implements or interprets a federal statute, a constitutional provision, or a treaty.

The president's power to issue executive orders comes from Congress and the U.S. Constitution. Executive orders differ from presidential proclamations, which are used largely for ceremonial and honorary purposes, such as declaring National Newspaper Carrier Appreciation Day.

Executive orders do not require congressional approval. _Read More Here_

 

[kermit]

Any example of what you think you know you are talking about?

Were you not alive in the 80's and 90's?

He deserted his post in a time of war while deployed in a combat zone. That isn't the same as missing formation on a Saturday morning down at Fort Stewart. All you want to know is the notion he went AWOL. But again, from others who have been there:

Article 85—Desertion

“(a) Any member of the armed forces who—

(1) without authority goes or remains absent from his unit, organization, or place of duty with intent to remain away therefrom permanently;

Notice the bolded portion. You don't know his intent when we was captured. He was AWOL, but to say he was deserter means you know his intent, which you don't

 

[Vylo]

Were you not alive in the 80's and 90's?


Article 85—Desertion

“(a) Any member of the armed forces who—

(1) without authority goes or remains absent from his unit, organization, or place of duty with intent to remain away therefrom permanently;

Notice the bolded portion. You don't know his intent when we was captured. He was AWOL, but to say he was deserter means you know his intent, which you don't

Leaving all his weapons and gear behind, writing those emails, etc. Sends a pretty strong message that he meant it to be permanent.

 

[TimotheosVII]

Yes to an extent. I have always felt that the use of executive order is to make decisions or perform certain actions without congressional approval. This president has interpreted that to mean he can do whatever he wants regrdless of the law.

 

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

According to the agreement these five will be held in Qatar for one year. Even if this occurs subsequent to that year they will be free to go where they will and do what they will.

The part about not being able to leave Qatar for a year is a part of it, but it's not the whole deal. The details of the rest haven't been made publicly available, which means that it's hard to really critique it for good or bad. Because they're being kept away from the public eye, though, it's safe to say that they're intended to maintain security. More likely than not, they involve some means of tracking the prisoners, a requirement for surveillance, and probably severe travel restrictions even after they can leave Qatar.

The 2014 elections will be over before that year passes.

That's not the point. He's also not a sociopath.

You don't know that. Bergdahl wasn't captured while conducting combat operations against the enemy. He was a PFC when he dropped his weapon, abandoned his post and went looking for the Taliban.

It's pretty clear that's what would have happened. Politics has some pretty recognizable patterns. The death of a POW in a Taliban camp is going to be jumped on by someone, and if there had been a debate about his track record, those who attacked Obama's actions would both offer the argument that Bergdahl shouldn't have died regardless without a proper court martial (like I'm arguing now), or they would have attempted to open up an investigation into whether his claims about the military were true that would have lasted until long after it fell out of the public eye.

 

[BeachSun]

After all the lies from Bush, hearing this makes me yawn.

That didn't take long.

 

[JustOneWay]

That didn't take long.

Actually, my opinion of Bush came about from years of lies.

Where are those weapons of mass destruction?

 

[TimotheosVII]

The Bush administration set in motion one of the most dangerous foreign policies in modern America. Whether it was motivated by good intentions or not, there's no excuse for that amount of wreckless incompetence.

 

[Vylo]

The Bush administration set in motion one of the most dangerous foreign policies in modern America. Whether it was motivated by good intentions or not, there's no excuse for that amount of wreckless incompetence.

It isn't just foreign, but don't worry:

Obama didn't and won't fix.

But don't worry:

The next guy probably won't either.

Yay?

 

[TimotheosVII]

Oh Obama has taken it to a whole new level! That's just assumed.

 

[TimotheosVII]

The only thing, if anything, that can fix it will be new faces in Washington. It's really just a matter of time...a long time. The senior lawmakers will have to die first before any change can happen at this point. That's my assessment at least.

 

[Sistrin]

Were you not alive in the 80's and 90's?

I will rephrase. When has the United States ever exchanged any, not to mention five, high ranking captured enemy combatants for a single US PFC? One who deserted his post, no less? When has such an exchange occurred while hostilities against said enemy combatants were still ongoing?

As for attempting to equate this with Reagan, even if he had been as derelict in his duties as Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces, it would be an Appeal to Common Practice fallacy to use that as a basis for an argument.

Notice the bolded portion. You don't know his intent when we was captured. He was AWOL, but to say he was deserter means you know his intent, which you don't.

As Vylo said, the manner in which he left his post and headed off into enemy territory makes his intent clear. In addition, this isn't the first time I have encountered a situation like this one.

Before I went to Ranger school one of my assignments was to the 2nd Infantry Division in South Korea. Actually it was my first assignment, and it was in the wake of PFC Joseph White's defection to North Korea. During that deployment I stood a post at Guard Post Ouellette, to include right where this picture was taken:

Suffice it to say White's defection resonated for years with US forces in Korea, and we all heard, whether we wanted to or not, all about him. His story has much in common with Bergdahl's. He expressed his discontent with the military, praised the North Korean dictatorship, and abandoned his post to join the other side.

Source: What happened to PFC Joseph White? – North Korea – DMZ – History – Failure magazine |

White's intent was clear, and from what all who knew Bergdahl have said so was his.

More likely than not, they involve some means of tracking the prisoners, a requirement for surveillance, and probably severe travel restrictions even after they can leave Qatar.

We might hope that is true, but after a year or long before these guys can vanish back into the depths from which they came.

That's not the point.

It may very well be the point.

The death of a POW in a Taliban camp is going to be jumped on by someone...

Sure, by someone. But his status has been known long before this story broke. Other than from his father there hasn't been much interest in the story until he was traded for five high risk high-profile Taliban operators.

 

[SaphireOwl]

So since this deserter is now at a base in Germany, when does his trial start?
Six soldiers died looking for him when he walked away from his post, left his rifle on the ground, and disappeared in Afghanistan five years ago.

When does his trial start? Has anyone heard an update on that as yet?

And is his father on a watch list? Please God let him be on a watch list!

 

[kermit]

I will rephrase. When has the United States ever exchanged any, not to mention five, high ranking captured enemy combatants for a single US PFC? One who deserted his post, no less? When has such an exchange occurred while hostilities against said enemy combatants were still ongoing?

You are moving the goalposts. You talked about negotiating with terrorists, now you have added quite a list of specific criteria.

As for attempting to equate this with Reagan, even if he had been as derelict in his duties as Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces, it would be an Appeal to Common Practice fallacy to use that as a basis for an argument.

I wasn't aware that Reagan was president for the entirety of the 80's and 90's.

As Vylo said, the manner in which he left his post and headed off into enemy territory makes his intent clear. In addition, this isn't the first time I have encountered a situation like this one.

When I was reading on this topic I found an article that talked about this. Intent is critical to desertion. It's also very hard to prove. That's there are so few prosecutions for desertion. Apparently, even if a soldier leaves all of his gear writes a letter saying that he's deserting, but changes his mind and returns of his own accord he's technically only AWOL. The point is that since Bergdahl was taken prisoner we'll never know if he was going to come back. I'll see if I can find the article again.