Paul, the False Apostle: Rebuttal of Point 3

[Heinzzz]

*yawn*

I've got it made. I'm neither Pauline nor non-Pauline. I'm sort of both, just like Paul was to every man. Wait...

I think I'm confused. What's a Christian again??

I just don't know anymore.

 

[The RedRose]

*yawn*

I've got it made. I'm neither Pauline nor non-Pauline. I'm sort of both, just like Paul was to every man. Wait...

I think I'm confused. What's a Christian again??

I just don't know anymore.

Acts 11:
25 Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul:
26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Saul/Paul's disciples were called "christians" ...

RedRose

 

[The RedRose]

But the thread is based on a debate of Paul.

The main question should be.....does Pauls teaching fall in line with and further the gospel that Christ gave to the disciples to teach the nations of the World?

In my study, spiritually they do. But physically they don't. But he admits that. Many times.

The main question ... does Paul's teaching fall in line with the gospel that Messiah gave to His Disciples?
Your answer ... "physically (?) they don't. But he admits that. Many times."

The main question ... does Paul's teaching further (do you mean "add to") the gospel that Messiah gave to His Disciples?
My answer ... Yes !!

RedRose

 

[Phantasman]

The main question ... does Paul's teaching fall in line with the gospel that Messiah gave to His Disciples?
Your answer ... "physically (?) they don't. But he admits that. Many times."

The main question ... does Paul's teaching further (do you mean "add to") the gospel that Messiah gave to His Disciples?
My answer ... Yes !!

RedRose

I use the word "further" as escalate. Paul had a problem with the Jews. James wanted him to teach the Gentiles (as well as Christ instructed).

BTW- I question whether Hebrews and the Pastorals were even Pauls. So I actually only follow spiritually his original 10 books.

 

[TorahMan]

deleted

 

[The RedRose]

Deut 13:
3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4 Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

Zech 11:
16 For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, which shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces.

Acts 13:
2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

RedRose

 

[JesusMartyr]

Hosea 2:
7 ... then shall she say, "I will go and return to my first husband; for then was it better with me than now."

14 Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak comfortably unto her.

19 And I will betroth thee unto Me for ever ...

Hosea 4:
6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge ...



((who is this?))


RedRose

I KNOW you don't know WHO she is! She is the redeemed Wife of Christ. But Christians know, because Jesus and Paul both wrote about this fulfillment of the Old Covenant with the New Covenant in Christ's blood, IN DEPTH.

It is the Church aka THE ISRAEL BRIDE OF CHRIST REDEEMED. The fulfillment of the O.T. Promise to His Wife.

The Marriage of Jesus to Israel (church) could only happen in the New Covenant promised to Israel AFTER the OLD MARRIAGE WAS ENDED BY THE DEATH OF THE HUSBAND.

The NEW COVENANT to Israel by which WE are MARRIED to JESUS, is the ONLY MANNER IN WHICH the HOPE OF ISRAEL is fulfilled.
And this is CENTRAL to the MESSAGE of the GOSPEL, of which Jesus sent Paul to the Jews to convict them of the truth.

Only the proud and lifted up rejected that message in scriptures, then as well as today.

Thank you Jesus through Paul for giving this tremendous understanding and enlightenment through Paul the greatest of the Apostles!

Here are warnings to those who reject the Gospel as did the hard hearted Jews of Jesus' and Paul's day...

(Php 3:2) Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the concision:


(Act 13:43) Now when the synagogue broke up, many of the Jews and of the devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, urged them to continue in the grace of God.

(Act 13:44) And the next sabbath almost the whole city was gathered together to hear the word of God.

(Act 13:45) But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with jealousy, and contradicted the things which were spoken by Paul, and blasphemed.

(Act 13:46) And Paul and Barnabas spake out boldly, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first be spoken to you. Seeing ye thrust it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

(Act 13:47) For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee for a light of the Gentiles, That thou shouldest be for salvation unto the uttermost part of the earth.

(Act 13:48) And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

(Act 13:49) And the word of the Lord was spread abroad throughout all the region.

(Act 13:50) But the Jews urged on the devout women of honourable estate, and the chief men of the city, and stirred up a persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and cast them out of their borders.

(Act 13:51) But they shook off the dust of their feet against them, and came unto Iconium.

(Act 6:9) But there arose certain of them that were of the synagogue called the synagogue of the Libertines, and of the Cyrenians, and of the Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and Asia, disputing with Stephen.

(Act 6:10) And they were not able to withstand the wisdom and the Spirit by which he spake.

And FINALLY, to put this entire matter into perspective on this thread...

(Tit 1:14) not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men who turn away from the truth.

So those who reject the Gospel, as from Paul, are usually those as above who killed the Christians with their ignorance and hard hearts. For that is all they were comprised of. It is the sum total of the reason for their existence, whereunto they were appointed;

(1Pe 2:8) and, A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence; for they stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

 

[ananda]

The Marriage of Jesus to Israel (church) could only happen in the New Covenant promised to Israel AFTER the OLD MARRIAGE WAS ENDED BY THE DEATH OF THE HUSBAND.

Who was the husband of the "old marriage"?

So those who reject the Gospel, as from Paul, are usually those as above who killed the Christians with their ignorance and hard hearts.

My Gospel is Messiah's Gospel, not Paul's gospel.

 

[FredVB]

You have posted an excellent answer and question. However, your belief that Paul is saying the same thing may not be correct. It would be easier to respond to your post if you would provide a Chapter and verse to back up your statement.
Thanks

I say, in my own opinion, that Paul wanted believers to obey Christ, the same as what Christ said. Paul did say, in Romans 6, What shall we say then? Shall we sin that grace abound? Certainly not! Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! And so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

What he said is certainly right and proper. So why did he then effectively say "but you can choose your own food, feasts, calendar or Sabbath" in Rom 14:13, 1 Cor 8:9, and Col 2:16? Of course people can do their own thing if they wish, if they are willing to risk the consequences. They certainly don't need Paul's approval to do it.

So why did he suggest it at all? Especially when there was no scriptural precedent? This is no small matter, because they are stumbling blocks of the highest order. The church has exercised them to the hilt, such that Paul's exhortation to righteousness in Romans 6 is now completely ignored, except on the rare occasions when Paul needs defending.

He's like a pastor who thunders "Do not drink! Do not gamble!" from the pulpit, while offering free alcohol and gambling machines in the church foyer. But a person who truly cares about their flock doesn't do those sorts of things. His advice is consistent, and if he sees confusion, he does his best to resolve it. He certainly doesn't add to it, like Paul with his 'one rule here, another rule there' approach. People's souls are much too precious for that.

Gentile believers were not to be told to be circumcised to be Jewish, or be required or judged in the matter of Jewish observance, as determined in Acts 15, other than to likewise avoid sexual immorality, to avoid meat from strangled animals or with having the blood, or having anything involving idolatry. It is yet to be understood that Christ and his apostles are to be obeyed in what they teach.

Gentile believers are free from doing what they had not yet done if it was not disobedient to Christ and his apostles, including these four things, and so he was right to say they are not to be judged in those things, whether they observe more of them or not. But what is left that is permissible, not really meaning that is so for everything, though some will read into it that understanding, it is not all profitable, in regard of spiritual growth. All believers must be learning, and growing in obedience.

I am not at all forgetting Romans 6. I haven't been to any church with such problems. Yet I see that there is licentiousness and it would influence some churches. Maybe it has happened more where you live. If churches really provide a place for drinking alcohol and gambling, that would be really bad. I never see Paul like that, at all.

The word "members" refers to bodily parts, not the membership.

Why would you tell me that at all, as if to correct me? Did I say anything for understanding it differently? It was just quotations, not just myself saying it.

 

[TorahMan]

Paul's Plan to Destroy Christianity From Within


A key commandment in the law is this: ”You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you” (Deut. 4:2). Another is Deut. 28, where verses 1-14 list the blessings for those who keep the commandments, and verses 15-68 list the calamities for those who disobey them. Paul would have been familiar with both these passages.

Prior to Paul, there was not the faintest hint that the law would be dissolved. In fact it contains at least thirteen distinct prophecies which state that the law will continue to the end of this age, and into the age to come (Psa 119:44; Isa 2:3; 42:21; 51:4, 7; 56:2, 6; 58:13; 65:4; 66:17, 23; Mic 4:2; Nah 1:15). Nevertheless Paul invented the following doctrine to expressly dissolve the law: ”Let no-one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a New Moon or Sabbaths” (Col. 2:16). He repeated it in Rom. 14:2-13, 1 Cor. 8:8-9, 1 Cor. 10:25, and much of Galatians. In so doing he added to the word – a direct violation of Deut 4:2. There’s nothing to suggest that he was somehow above the law, able to break it with impunity.

As someone with responsibility for new believers, it was his job to steer them towards righteousness, not away from it. There is no way any evangelist worth his salt would have put a stumbling block like this before them, unless he secretly sought their downfall. Paul knew full well from James that new believers (including Gentiles) were expected to congregate each Sabbath, to learn the law of Moses (Acts 15:21). Yet here he was, suggesting the exact opposite, knowing that the foolish Gentiles would take the bait.

And so we arrive at today, where multitudes of believers suffer daily and cannot understand why. They tithe, worship, and do all the things which seem right, yet they suffer ‘infirmities, reproaches, lack, persecution, distress, weakness, and foolishness’. But why should they be surprised? Paul himself listed those things as the fruits of his gospel in 2 Cor. 12:10-11. In other words as a follower of Paul you may be saved, but don’t expect anything else. As for the victories promised in Deut 28:1-14, they are expressly denied to people who follow Paul’s gospel of no works. This was apparently Paul’s intention all along.

Paul couldn’t destroy the church from outside, so he pretended to become converted, and waited until he’d convinced everyone that he was now a true believer. When the time was right (which turned out to be at Ephesus, Acts 19), he planted his Trojan Horse of 'doing your own thing'. He succeeded extremely well.

So what does this mean for you? If you obey the commandments, here’s what you'll experience:

• a closer relationship with Yeshua (Jesus);
• a more dynamic prayer life;
• much better understanding of the Bible, especially the difficult parts;
• an end to spiritual attack;
• better health;
• a greater sense of peace, safety, and the Holy spirit;
• the comfort of knowing that if things go bad, you have a much wider range of promises upon which to call;
• surprise that the commandments are so easy to learn and do – nothing like the crushing burden that they claim in church!

So what is there not to like? Why hang onto Paul any longer? The ball is in your court.

TorahMan

 

[Phantasman]

My Gospel is Messiah's Gospel, not Paul's gospel.

Hey netzarim. Just curious.

I understand how we have discussed Acts and the Pauline letters (for the Anti-Pauline Messianic theology).

But how does 2 Peter 3's statement fit into the belief?

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.


If Peter's acknowledging Paul in this respect, it seems sound. Do you have to dismiss it somehow? Like I said, not being smart, just trying to see what you see in it.

 

[IchoozJC]

So what does this mean for you? If you obey the commandments, here’s what you'll experience:

• a closer relationship with Yeshua (Jesus);
• a more dynamic prayer life;
• much better understanding of the Bible, especially the difficult parts;
• an end to spiritual attack;
• better health;
• a greater sense of peace, safety, and the Holy spirit;
• the comfort of knowing that if things go bad, you have a much wider range of promises upon which to call;
• surprise that the commandments are so easy to learn and do – nothing like the crushing burden that they claim in church!

So what is there not to like? Why hang onto Paul any longer? The ball is in your court.

TorahMan

BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE! Act today and we'll throw in a special anti-Pauline secret decoder ring! Now you can twist any of Paul's words, with just a twist of the ring!

I especially like this part:
"much better understanding of the Bible, especially the difficult parts;"
Of course! You just toss out all the difficult parts.

 

[ananda]

Hey netzarim. Just curious.

I understand how we have discussed Acts and the Pauline letters (for the Anti-Pauline Messianic theology).

But how does 2 Peter 3's statement fit into the belief?

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

If Peter's acknowledging Paul in this respect, it seems sound. Do you have to dismiss it somehow? Like I said, not being smart, just trying to see what you see in it.

Shalom, my friend.

My tradition interprets it thus:

• v15 "Brother" - are there not such a thing as false brothers?;
• v15 Beloved" - are we not to love everyone, even our enemies?;
• v15 "wisdom" - is there not a wisdom that is devilish (Jam 3:15)?;
• v16 "the rest of the scriptures" - my tradition understands as referring to"the rest of the Writings", e.g. Ketuvim;

I thus interpret Peter here as warning the untaught and unstable who use Paul's words and certain Ketuvim writings to support their doctrines of lawlessnesses (v17) and so, as a result, fall from their steadfastness in Messiah.

So I see 2Peter 3:15-17 not as a statement in support of Paul, but a warning about him.

 

[ananda]

Gentile believers were not to be told to be circumcised to be Jewish, or be required or judged in the matter of Jewish observance, as determined in Acts 15...

How do you interpret Matthew 28:18-20?

 

[IchoozJC]

Shalom, my friend.

My tradition interprets it thus:

• v15 "Brother" - are there not such a thing as false brothers?;
• v15 Beloved" - are we not to love everyone, even our enemies?;
• v15 "wisdom" - is there not a wisdom that is devilish (Jam 3:15)?;
• v16 "the rest of the scriptures" - my tradition understands as referring to"the rest of the Writings", e.g. Ketuvim;

I thus interpret Peter here as warning the untaught and unstable who use Paul's words and certain Ketuvim writings to support their doctrines of lawlessnesses (v17) and so, as a result, fall from their steadfastness in Messiah.

So I see 2Peter 3:15-17 not as a statement in support of Paul, but a warning about him.

That might be the worst explanation of any scripture I've ever seen on these forums. Congrats.

 

[ananda]

That might be the worst explanation of any scripture I've ever seen on these forums. Congrats.

Thanks for sharing your personal opinion

 

[FredVB]

I don't see Paul adding to or taking away anything, as what was required of gentile believers was already stated. There is more that gentile believers could do, but it was not to be required of them nor were they to be judged in those things. There was indeed expectation that some gentile believers, in the cities that they knew of, with synagogues, would go to hear the scriptures being taught on sabbaths. I understand it that way although there is difficulty with Christian believers in more recent times seeing that. I have given the Sabbath more thought, and recently was more convicted, to do more with it than just think. I found a relevant scripture passage and posted in these forums asking about it, in the thread, What of these passages, do they make you think?, in the Sabbath and the Law forum. The response, with me only asking about it, was with several who responded all accusing me of spreading heresies, and other intolerant things. Clearly there is lack of understanding that we are not to judge each other in these things. But response was with telling me that obedience to Sabbath observation is impossible, no one is doing it, those saying they do are hypocrites.

Yet I do agree that the commandments are desirable for us.

Fred V B,
Thank you again for an intelligent response. You said, In deed this is true. This was in essence to Peter's dream in Acts 10. What is not mentioned but I believe it is there under the radar is that these were known as the Noachide Laws. What they are is a set of 7 laws that gentiles were to follow since it was believed that the 613 Laws were not required for them. So this is basically what is being said in the letter Acts 15 in my opinion Notice it says, "If you...keep yourselves...". Remember that this is a letter to Paul. Which implies that he wasn't circumscribed. There is a problem with the Noachide laws that I see. Even though they are easy to follow they in essence keep the gentile from progressing in their lives due to a lack of Torah. This is my opinion so take it or leave it. I believe that if the gentile will really hold on to the True vine by following Torah as Yahushua did then our society as well as our world would be in a much better place. The book of Jubilees has some real interesting things to say about these laws as they pertaining to a vegetarian diet.
Thanks

That we are not to have blood with the meat from animals is indeed from the covenant through Noah and is for all of humanity since then. Yet who are observing that? As meat from animals was not available for food in the original design from God, which was perfect, and it is only provisionally available for a time, after the flood, in God's promised restoration such won't be available, and sacrifice of animals is no longer to be done since Christ came and the atonement is accomplished, to be food is not why animals are in this creation. They are innocent, it is sin, from us who are fallen humanity, that is the reason that there is death in this world. But why should we still contribute to death? It is not why Christ came. I can see that laws might pertain to a vegetarian diet. And we could indeed grow with learning more in obedience.

How do you interpret Matthew 28:18-20?

I think I have the right view of it, commandments that Christ taught are for all of us who are believers, that we are to do to follow him, and to teach. Yes, I can understand that some don't see that the same way.

 

[IchoozJC]

The Red Rose,

Something He showed me this morning while reading your post;Look what happens when we remove the fourth letter from the name Barnabas, the n, we get the name Barabas! Acts 21:38 uses the Greek term sikarios (dagger men) for an "Egyptian" rebel who led "four thousand men ... out into the wilderness" three years before. The sikarios were worse then just robbers, they were murderer's who would go about the temple stabbing people with hidden daggers and then running off and hiding back into the crowd. 'He was a murderer from the beginning'. Much of this can be read at hebrew-streams. org

So, have you made your point yet?

Most other sites won't tolerate those of us who have different views on Paul and Christianity. They may be tolerant for a time until they can convert us so to speak to their points of view. In other words they become like Paul liars, etcetera until they have manipulated us into buying into their BS. How could it be any different? Paul is the one they really follow and the fruit doesn't fall far from the tree. Or should I say its hard to kick against the pricks! Hee hee! So when we enter the lion's den it is we who are kicking against the pricks. I don't see the point of it. We can't convert them and they really don't care for our views? I just make my point and move on! If Yashua wants them to follow in His way he will guide them to where they need to be.
Good to be back
Charlie

If we "follow Paul" and represent him by our fruits, are you sure you are representing Yashua? There is no sense of concern coming from you for the people here who "follow Paul". The whole thread from TS'ers is full of pride and boasting, you guys just slapping each other on the backs because you all hate Paul and just love to get people over here upset with your anti Paul antics.

If that thread on TS'ers is any indication of the spirit you guys operate in, I most certainly don't want anything to do with you. Just because you can provoke the flesh in God fearing people does not make you a better person.

 

[ananda]

I think I have the right view of it, commandments that Christ taught are for all of us who are believers, that we are to do to follow him, and to teach.

So would you agree that Messiah in Mt 28:18-20 commanded that both ethnically Jewish and ethically Gentile believers are to observe the same things, that there is no distinction between either group? Additionally, do you recognize that all 12 apostles were here sent to teach the Gentiles?

 

[IchoozJC]

Some more fruit from their minds:

In the days to come you are all going to find out the the vengeance of YHVH against the Christians, so be very careful with your pity as it will blind your discernment. I tell you truly Yahshua considers Christianity no less than the belly of the beast. As a matter of fact try this on for size for all of you who still seem to desire to use the word christ. Christians hate really inspired spiritual TRUTH.

Michael

I have to agree with you Michael, regarding the level of wrath which YHVH has against the church of Paul. It's not going to be nice for them at all, yet there's not the slightest sense of concern. Oh well, their lesson is coming. I'm not saying the non-Paul crowd is perfect, but at least we are teachable and happy to do what YHVH asks, even to the wearing of tzitzit. And obedience like that makes a huge difference.

Shaun

One thing He did say was this concerning the Christians, 'Away from ME you filthy cowards, you make ME sick.' And I'll tell you what, they fled from His presence in complete and utter terror.
So if anyone wants to post this over there, feel totally welcome, and if they want to disparage the visions then they are only fulfilling their miserable destiny.

Michael

There is a lot more of this hate over there, but I started throwing up in my mouth and couldn't copy/paste any more right now. :o