Paul, the False Apostle: Rebuttal of Point 3

[JesusMartyr]

If they were impossible to conform to, then how did Messiah do so? Why are we commanded to follow in His footsteps, if it is impossible? What do you believe the Apostle John was saying in 1John 5:2,3?:

"By this we know that we love the children of God (Θεοῦ, referring to the Father), when we love God (Θεὸν, referring to the Father again), and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God (Θεοῦ, again referring to the Father), that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous."

or "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." Rev 14:12

Just WHERE does Jesus command us to follow in His footsteps and keep the LAW OF Moses?

Show me that scripture.

Is THAT what you believe? That is bizarre... what a strange twisting to destroy one's self...

You sure can't get that from 1 John 5:2,3... which says,

(1Jn 5:2) By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

(1Jn 5:3) For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

THAT says NOTHING about keeping the law of Moses. It is about KEEPING JESUS' COMMANDMENTS. And what is He referring to?

(Joh 13:34) A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

(Mat 22:37) Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
(Mat 22:38) This is the first and great commandment.
(Mat 22:39) And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
(Mat 22:40) On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


(1Jn 3:23) And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

As you can see, nothing about going back to that which IS FINISHED;

(Mat 5:18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

And of course, all the purpose of the existence of the law was fulfilled when Jesus FINISHED IT;

(Joh 19:30) When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

ALL FULFILLED/FINISHED;

Now that law is "abolished";

Eph_2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
2Ti_1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

This is Beautiful to one who understands it. Pray for understanding everyone!

 

[JesusMartyr]

How can this be? Paul taught the Gentiles at James request because the Jews rejected Paul (Acts). So in your wisdom you make this claim? So, were the Jews who the Disciples taught rejecting Christ as well?

You need to pray about what you say before you judge out of foolishness.

Yes grasshopper, in my wisdom and by the Spirit of Christ I "make this claim".
But I don't expect you to agree...

(1Co 2:14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Anyone who rejects Paul also rejects Christ. Their message is ONE AND THE SAME to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.

 

[IchoozJC]

Yes grasshopper, in my wisdom and by the Spirit of Christ I "make this claim".
But I don't expect you to agree...

(1Co 2:14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Anyone who rejects Paul also rejects Christ. Their message is ONE AND THE SAME to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.

I'll post this again in case he missed it.


“If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord” (1 Cor. 14:37)-Paul

 

[JesusMartyr]

I'm done on this thread. I've never been around folk who throw so much mud at those who love the Word of God, not to mention against Paul, one of the most beautiful and revelatory writers of N.T. Holy Writ.
Paul was a beloved Apostle called out specially by Christ because of His in depth knowledge of O.T. scriptures. He was the perfect means by which Jesus chose/chooses to give us understanding of how all O.T. scriptures to Israel is fulfilled in the Israel Bride of Christ today, aka Christians. For those who reject the writings of Paul, also reject the writings of Jesus and every other apostle, as they are all ONE, and such a person is anathema.

For those who've been reading this, yes, my gall is raised in dealing with the scoffers and refusers of the Holy Spirit and to you I apologize if I appeared to be more than zealous and came across being perturbed at them, because I was and I don't put up with such nonsense and I know I can show it. But don't let that keep you from studying the Word and proving Paul out. Any questions asked in good faith on this topic, please feel free to PM me. But I won't put up with any more slanderings against the writers of Holy Writ, Paul or otherwise. It is as a stink to high heaven, as we say around these parts, and we can only wrinkle our noses at it for a short while before flushing it down the commode where it belongs.
Peace

 

[Heinzzz]

Fascinating. Paul is no one's Christ that I know of. What kind of smoke screen reply is that?

Just a wild guess, but perhaps it's a response to this?

You reject Paul, you reject Christ.
No wonder you don't know who the Husband of the Old Marriage Covenant was.
How would you even know Israel's Husband To Day if you never knew of Him from the O.T. ?

Many Christians seem to equate Paul with Christ. It all has to do with teachings and what is accepted and practiced and what is rejected. Christ's and Paul's teachings and life examples differ on numerous points, as has been brought up already in this area numerous times.

 

[catlynne333]

Just a wild guess, but perhaps it's a response to this?



Many Christians seem to equate Paul with Christ. It all has to do with teachings and what is accepted and practiced and what is rejected. Christ's and Paul's teachings and life examples differ on numerous points, as has been brought up already in this area numerous times.

good point

 

[IchoozJC]

<staff edit>

Catlyinne,

Not yet, but I plan on posting something today. Most likely a link to this site. Hee hee. I'm sure they don't want to hear what I have to say! Hee hee :laugh: However I will drop some of my view on them just to see the fur fly!

You started it by commemorating your success signing up here by saying:

Hi all,
Well took the plunge and signed up at CF also. Hope this is the right thing to do, as we are not to have any part with the powers of darkness. The one thing I noticed right off was that they encourage you to purchase blessings. Whatever happened to freely you have been given, freely you will receive? :laugh: Typical sign of a false teacher, they have exchanged His and Her word for mammon. Right Rhoda? Talk about demons! I could feel them coming at me when going through their avatars. I used the same user name as here charliemc, but the avatar is different. I doubt if I will be posting there much as there is only so much time in the day to spend blogging. And these days will soon become shortened. Hee hee. If I do anything there it most likely will be to just mention TS to lead them here. That way if they are the least curious or are looking for a home then they will find their way to here.

Shaun,
Tell me is it wise to have any part of them at all? This was my original question if not then we should dust our feet and leave. As to whether its wise to post a link there? Well if the area that you have been posted is for anti-Pauline's then what is the harm of that? How else can those who want the light find it? So what if a few of the really bad ones come over here. We have had to deal with that before. However, if the general consensus is that we should hide our heads like an ostrich then so be it. I will not post a link to the heathen. It sure seems to me that I heard some one say, I come not to bring peace but a sword.

You are truly a duplicitous wolf.

 

[ananda]

Fascinating. Paul is no one's Christ that I know of. What kind of smoke screen reply is that?

I reject the idea that rejecting Paul is rejecting Christ. Many were saved before Paul ever appeared on the scene, and I will contend that he continues to be non-essential to faithfulness in Messiah.

Yes I could Name the Husband of the Old Marriage. But I'll let you. Hint: He is GOD Himself...

When did God the Father die then?

No. People who rejoice in the Word of God, including Paul's writings, aren't being "theological". They are being Sons of God and Bible scholars and followers of the words of the prophets and apostles as of Christ Himself. Only the enemy who brings in condemnation against the Lord's anointed use a "theology". For it is cultish and man made opinion, a powerful tool of the lost is their "theology". It has no support nor basis other than mud slinging opinion that they are just PARROTING from someone else they heard the same junk from. Very common. It all has the identical same stink. Such "theology" is of the devil and you won't find True Christians voicing that kind of junk.

Thanks for your personal opinion.

 

[ananda]

Just WHERE does Jesus command us to follow in His footsteps and keep the LAW OF Moses? Show me that scripture. Is THAT what you believe? That is bizarre... what a strange twisting to destroy one's self...

It was not the Law of Moses. It is God's Law. Have you not heard? "Follow Me" (Mt 4:19, 8:22, 9:9, Jn 10:27, etc.?) Or what the Apostle John wrote: "He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. " 1Jn 2:6? Or the Apostle Peter: "For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:" 1Pet 2:21?

You sure can't get that from 1 John 5:2,3... THAT says NOTHING about keeping the law of Moses. It is about KEEPING JESUS' COMMANDMENTS.

No, the theos (&#920;&#949;&#959;&#8166;/&#920;&#949;&#8056;&#957 is always used in reference to the Father, not the Son. John was stating that we need to keep the Father's Commandments. Point 2: Messiah stated that He came to speak only what the Father gave Him to speak. The prophecy regarding Messiah in the Torah states that the Father will give His Prophet Words originating from Him, the Father. All of Messiah's Commandments are the Father's Commandments, and vice versa.

 

[ananda]

I'm done on this thread. I've never been around folk who throw so much mud at those who love the Word of God, not to mention against Paul, one of the most beautiful and revelatory writers of N.T. Holy Writ.
Paul was a beloved Apostle called out specially by Christ because of His in depth knowledge of O.T. scriptures. He was the perfect means by which Jesus chose/chooses to give us understanding of how all O.T. scriptures to Israel is fulfilled in the Israel Bride of Christ today, aka Christians. For those who reject the writings of Paul, also reject the writings of Jesus and every other apostle, as they are all ONE, and such a person is anathema.

For those who've been reading this, yes, my gall is raised in dealing with the scoffers and refusers of the Holy Spirit and to you I apologize if I appeared to be more than zealous and came across being perturbed at them, because I was and I don't put up with such nonsense and I know I can show it. But don't let that keep you from studying the Word and proving Paul out. Any questions asked in good faith on this topic, please feel free to PM me. But I won't put up with any more slanderings against the writers of Holy Writ, Paul or otherwise. It is as a stink to high heaven, as we say around these parts, and we can only wrinkle our noses at it for a short while before flushing it down the commode where it belongs.
Peace

If you Paul is authoritative for you, are you disobeying him by posting here? "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." 1Tim 2:12

He is not authoritative for me, so I do not believe that, for the record. Yet how do you reconcile the fact that you are teaching, in light of his command?

 

[ananda]

Many Christians seem to equate Paul with Christ. It all has to do with teachings and what is accepted and practiced and what is rejected. Christ's and Paul's teachings and life examples differ on numerous points, as has been brought up already in this area numerous times.

 

[Der Alte]

. . . No, the theos (&#920;&#949;&#959;&#8166;/&#920;&#949;&#8056;&#957 is always used in reference to the Father, not the Son.

You say this as if it proves something about the Son. &#920;&#949;&#959;&#8166;/&#920;&#949;&#8056;&#957;/Theou/Theon are not different words. Both &#920;&#949;&#959;&#8166;/&#920;&#949;&#8056;&#957; are both inflections of &#952;&#949;&#959;&#962;/Theos. &#920;&#949;&#8056;&#957; is the Accusative, Singular, Masculine. The Accusative case marks the direct object of a transitive verb. The first occurrence of God is John 1:1 in an Accusative.

&#920;&#949;&#959;&#8166; is a Genitive, Singular, Masculine. The Genitive case is the case of possession. God in John 1:6 is the Genitive &#920;&#949;&#959;&#8166;.

 

[TorahMan]

So I really don't see you any different than Paul seen Peter when he rebuked him.

You mean when Paul broke his own commandment to &#8220;Let the elders who rule well (which Peter certainly did) be counted worthy of double honour&#8221; (1 Tim 5:17)?

You mean when Paul broke another of his commandments to &#8220;NOT receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses&#8221; (1 Tim 5:19)? Where was Paul's second or third witness?

And then to do as much damage to Peter's reputation as possible, Paul addressed his accusation to all the churches in Galatia (Gal 1:2)! What a spiteful, malicious creep.

I'm sorry, but I don't share your adulation of this contemptible man, who was hell-bent on wresting the entire Gentile world away from the apostles for himself. And then he had the gall to claim that he "imitated Christ" (1 Cor 11:1) (yeah, right). As far as I'm concerned you can have him.

TorahMan

 

[Phantasman]

Yes grasshopper, in my wisdom and by the Spirit of Christ I "make this claim".
But I don't expect you to agree...

(1Co 2:14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Anyone who rejects Paul also rejects Christ. Their message is ONE AND THE SAME to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.

Actually, those words are true, IMO. I never said Paul was a liar. You made the comment stating , pretty much, without Paul we don't have Christ. Did everyone have to wait for Paul? Paul taught the Gentiles. Did the Jews not know Christ from the teachings of the disciples, and not Paul? The verse you quote doesn't have anything to do with your comment.

Basically, your argument goes back to "if you don't believe in Christ as we Orthodox do, you are lost and don't know Christ". With your statement, it proves to me you do not understand the verse you quoted above.

I personally find much truth in Pauls writings. But some is questionable, especially when he speaks of physical things (like women silent in church).

 

[IchoozJC]

You mean when Paul broke his own commandment to “Let the elders who rule well (which Peter certainly did) be counted worthy of double honour” (1 Tim 5:17)?

You mean when Paul broke another of his commandments to “NOT receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses” (1 Tim 5:19)? Where was Paul's second or third witness?

And then to do as much damage to Peter's reputation as possible, he addressed his accusation of him to all the churches in Galatia (Gal 1:2)! What a spiteful, malicious creep.

I'm sorry, but I don't share your adulation of this contemptible man, who was hell-bent on wresting the entire Gentile world away from the apostles to himself. And then he had the gall to claim that he "imitated Christ" (1 Cor 11:1) (yeah, right). As far as I'm concerned you can have him.

TorahMan

If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews...

Do you believe the words of Paul that I quoted? Was it true that Peter lived like a gentile?

And I know you don't view Paul in the same light that I do. Its no secret that you are here to proselytize not discuss.

 

[Sheraldo]

Torah Man said:

And then to do as much damage to Peter's reputation as possible, he addressed his accusation of him to all the churches in Galatia (Gal 1:2)

When I started really leaning in to Jesus teachings I was blown away by this (may have already been covered but will repeat):

Matthew 18:15 "If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over.

Then when I hit Galatians 2:14 I was shocked to see this:

When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?

That was very confusing to me as I see that not conforming to Jesus instruction at all.

Sheraldo

 

[Der Alte]

You mean when Paul broke his own commandment to “Let the elders who rule well (which Peter certainly did) be counted worthy of double honour” (1 Tim 5:17)?

You mean when Paul broke another of his commandments to “NOT receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses” (1 Tim 5:19)? Where was Paul's second or third witness?

Where did Paul supposedly do all this? Nothing you posted here shows that Paul did any of this. Oh wait I got it you want all of us just to take your word for it. Isn't that more than just a little hypocritical? Since you are condemning Paul for supposedly accepting something without 2-3 witnesses. Where are your 2-3 witnesses?

And then to do as much damage to Peter's reputation as possible, he addressed his accusation of him to all the churches in Galatia (Gal 1:2)! What a spiteful, malicious creep.

I need to ask you this. Is it possible for you to post a verse which says what you claim it does? Gal 1:2 says nothing about Paul addressing any accusation to all the churches anywhere. Looks like Paul is not the one that is spiteful and malicious

I'm sorry, but I don't share your adulation of this contemptible man, who was hell-bent on wresting the entire Gentile world away from the apostles to himself. And then he had the gall to claim that he "imitated Christ" (1 Cor 11:1) (yeah, right). As far as I'm concerned you can have him.

TorahMan

You have not proved any of this. Where are your 2-3 witnesses? Peter did not agree with your vicious condemnation of Paul.

2Pe 3:15-17
(15) Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.
(16) He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
(17) Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.​

Neither did James

Act 15:12 The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the miraculous signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them.
Act 15:13 When they finished, James spoke up: "Brothers, listen to me.
Act 15:14 Simon[1] has described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for himself.

Act 15:22 Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, two men who were leaders among the brothers.

Act 15:25 So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul.​

 

[Phantasman]

Torah Man said:


When I started really leaning in to Jesus teachings I was blown away by this (may have already been covered but will repeat):

Matthew 18:15 "If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over.

Then when I hit Galatians 2:14 I was shocked to see this:

When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?

That was very confusing to me as I see that not conforming to Jesus instruction at all.

Sheraldo

Pauls mistake. Peters mistake as well. It all came down to circumcision. In my study of Peter, he was........a strong patriarch, and would say things before he thought. Two wrongs don't make a right. But Paul said just before who the pillars were, and Peters name isn't there. Actually, through study, Jesus left James as the go to disciple. Peters temperament was known all to well to Jesus.

 

[IchoozJC]

Torah Man said:


When I started really leaning in to Jesus teachings I was blown away by this (may have already been covered but will repeat):

Matthew 18:15 "If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over.

Then when I hit Galatians 2:14 I was shocked to see this:

When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?

That was very confusing to me as I see that not conforming to Jesus instruction at all.

Sheraldo

Does Paul say that Peter sinned?

And why do you have to assume it was like some big seething argument? I don't read it that way. Peter obviously didn't think it was a big deal. He still called Paul his beloved brother.

 

[Sheraldo]

Phantasman said:

[Pauls mistake. Peters mistake as well. It all came down to circumcision.

Thanks for your input Ph-man... Do you think it was hypocritical then for Paul to circumcise Timothy then in Act 16:3?

Sheraldo