Paul, the False Apostle: Rebuttal of Point 3

[Phantasman]

That was a good question Torahman...


Matt 19:28

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


and I think it also mentions it here:

Rev 22:14 The city wall (New Jerusalem) had 12 foundations, and the 12 names of the Lamb’s 12 apostles were on the foundations.

Matthew has surely been considered the strongest Jewish gospel. It is hard to understand whether Christ is speaking of judgement while they are in discipleship or ?. Since 1 John says that all judgement has been left to the Son by the Father (who judges no one), it is hard to conceive Jesus saying that, especially knowing one of the twelve was Judas. Not that the verse isn't there, but that in it's spiritual content, I don't understand what Christ is saying by regeneration. It is worth looking into, but as a person who doesn't place gospel truth in Revelations, I'll be seeking a spiritual message and not necessarily an apocalyptic one.

FWIW- I believe the Jews have already been judged. The gospel is now available to all nations, Jews and Gentiles alike.

 

[TorahMan]

Yeah right! Paul is going to write "Hey I'm the lawless one who is coming, everyone watch out for me." If you actually believe that nonsense I have some ocean front property in Arizona to sell you real cheap.

A learned person such as yourself would be aware that this is a standard form of sorcery, practised widely by the Illuminati and others via the media. The idea is to tell people in advance of your intentions, in such a brazen manner that they will not believe it. This effectively neutralises their defences, and allows you to get away with whatever you propose to do.

So yes, I do believe that Paul warned us of his intention to destroy Christianity from within in 2 Thess 2:9-12. It took me a long time to accept that conclusion, because like yourself I gave him the benefit of the doubt. Even I could not believe that he would have been that wicked.

But the clincher for me was Colossians 2:16, which no way would he have written if he'd had the interests of the church at heart. You simply don't invent massive stumbling blocks like that, and put them in front of new believers. It has no scriptural precedent whatsoever, and was 100% Paul's invention. In the related passages of Romans 14:13 and 1 Cor 8:9, he even had the nerve to mention 'stumbling block', where he again practised this form of sorcery. And the church has swallowed it hook, line and sinker.

I no longer believe that he got saved on the road to Damascus; all he did was go undercover to do far more damage from within. And the church will see how much she has been damaged during the Great Tribulation, when she finds that she is utterly defenceless against the evil purposed against her. This is why I also believe that there will be a tremendous revival back to Torah, which is the ONLY way to receive the protection promised in Deut 28:1-14. But for most believers it will be too late, which is sad.

TorahMan

 

[Heinzzz]

I would be real careful about throwing out insults about someone's lack of knowledge. This is the only cordial mention you will get for this. Please prove to me from recognized Hebrew sources that there was someone named Yahushua and that I should have anything to do with him. I don't mean a copy/paste from some Paulhaters-я-us.com website clone.

(add www(dot))mechon-mamre.org/mp3/t0531.mp3

@ 0:35

Yehoshua

This is how to say "Joshua" in Hebrew. That is from Deuteronomy 31 verse 3.

You can choose any passage from the OT here, and listen to the Hebrew:

(add www(dot))mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/ptmp3prq.htm


Now that it is known how to say "Joshua" in Hebrew, simply read Zecheriah 6:

9 The word of the Lord came to me: 10 “Take silver and gold from the exiles
Heldai, Tobijah and Jedaiah, who have arrived from Babylon. Go the same day to the house of Josiah son of Zephaniah. 11 Take the silver and gold and make a crown, and set it on the head of the high priest, Joshua son of Jozadak.12 Tell him this is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘Here is the man whose name is the Branch, and he will branch out from his place and build the temple of the Lord. 13 It is he who will build the temple of the Lord, and he will be clothed with majesty and will sit and rule on his throne. And he[e] will be a priest on his throne. And there will be harmony between the two.’ 14 The crown will be given to Heldai, Tobijah, Jedaiah and Hen son of
Zephaniah as a memorial in the temple of the Lord. 15 Those who are far away will come and help to build the temple of the Lord, and you will know that the Lord Almighty has sent me to you. This will happen if you diligently obey the Lord your God.”

Who is the Branch? Who's name is the Branch? Joshua. Or Yehoshua.

No need for some PaulhatersRUS website.

 

[TorahMan]

Paul did say, in Romans 6, What shall we say then? Shall we sin that grace abound? Certainly not! Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! And so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

What he said is certainly right and proper. So why did he then effectively say "but you can choose your own food, feasts, calendar or Sabbath" in Rom 14:13, 1 Cor 8:9, and Col 2:16? Of course people can do their own thing if they wish, if they are willing to risk the consequences. They certainly don't need Paul's approval to do it.

So why did he suggest it at all? Especially when there was no scriptural precedent? This is no small matter, because they are stumbling blocks of the highest order. The church has exercised them to the hilt, such that Paul's exhortation to righteousness in Romans 6 is now completely ignored, except on the rare occasions when Paul needs defending.

He's like a pastor who thunders "Do not drink! Do not gamble!" from the pulpit, while offering free alcohol and gambling machines in the church foyer. But a person who truly cares about their flock doesn't do those sorts of things. His advice is consistent, and if he sees confusion, he does his best to resolve it. He certainly doesn't add to it, like Paul with his 'one rule here, another rule there' approach. People's souls are much too precious for that.

 

[Phantasman]

Why would Rome burn Gnostic books before Nicaea? Why would they even know about gnostic books? Why would Rome care anything about or have any ideas about Pauline scripture?

I never said before Nicaea. Rome fell in 410. It began the Dark Ages of man. The gnostics were alive and well, as were the Marcionites, until Rome used Imperial authority to herd man into one religion........that agreed to by the state (Emporor). Irenaeus had already pointed the heresy finger. Rome just squashed it from existence.

The Dark Ages continued until the time the Bible was removed from it's Latin imprisonment, which I find ironic as well (1300s). And man once again
began exploring and growing (late 1400s).

 

[Phantasman]

There was no quote or addressing by name here, but perhaps this was for me to reply to. I say, in my own opinion, that Paul wanted believers to obey Christ, the same as what Christ said. Paul did say, in Romans 6, What shall we say then? Shall we sin that grace abound? Certainly not! Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! And so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

The word "members" refers to bodily parts, not the membership.

 

[The RedRose]

Hi All,

I have decided to re-join this thread and read (and answer) very carefully because last time I must have made a dire mistake because I was accused of "arguing" -which is not in my character. I "thought" I was JUST asking questions?!!

So, I will start with this question:

What IS all this "arguing" that is going on ?

Please explain?

Thank You,

RedRose

 

[Daniel121]

And because the Torah/Law was rejected the love of many waxed cold, brrrrrrrrr.
To whom is the Son referring?
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

 

[The RedRose]

(add www(dot))mechon-mamre.org/mp3/t0531.mp3

@ 0:35

Yehoshua

This is how to say "Joshua" in Hebrew. That is from Deuteronomy 31 verse 3.

You can choose any passage from the OT here, and listen to the Hebrew:

(add www(dot))mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/ptmp3prq.htm


Now that it is known how to say "Joshua" in Hebrew, simply read Zecheriah 6:

9 The word of the Lord came to me: 10 “Take silver and gold from the exiles
Heldai, Tobijah and Jedaiah, who have arrived from Babylon. Go the same day to the house of Josiah son of Zephaniah. 11 Take the silver and gold and make a crown, and set it on the head of the high priest, Joshua son of Jozadak.12 Tell him this is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘Here is the man whose name is the Branch, and he will branch out from his place and build the temple of the Lord. 13 It is he who will build the temple of the Lord, and he will be clothed with majesty and will sit and rule on his throne. And he[e] will be a priest on his throne. And there will be harmony between the two.’ 14 The crown will be given to Heldai, Tobijah, Jedaiah and Hen son of
Zephaniah as a memorial in the temple of the Lord. 15 Those who are far away will come and help to build the temple of the Lord, and you will know that the Lord Almighty has sent me to you. This will happen if you diligently obey the Lord your God.”

Who is the Branch? Who's name is the Branch? Joshua. Or Yehoshua.

No need for some PaulhatersRUS website.

Heinzzz

Thank You for this pronunciation

I LOVE IT !!

Twice in the NT the "scribes" miss-wrote "Jesus" where it was actually "Joshua" they were referring to ...
two witnesses to what our Savior's True Name is and how it is pronounced !!

RedRose

 

[Der Alte]

A learned person such as yourself would be aware that this is a standard form of sorcery, practised widely by the Illuminati and others via the media. The idea is to tell people in advance of your intentions, in such a brazen manner that they will not believe it. This effectively neutralises their defences, and allows you to get away with whatever you propose to do.

Sorcery, illuminati? What next?

So yes, I do believe that Paul warned us of his intention to destroy Christianity from within in 2 Thess 2:9-12. It took me a long time to accept that conclusion, because like yourself I gave him the benefit of the doubt. Even I could not believe that he would have been that wicked.

Why did Peter consider Paul a beloved brother? Jesus said the very elect could not be deceived.

But the clincher for me was Colossians 2:16, which no way would he have written if he'd had the interests of the church at heart.

Paul did have the interests of the church at heart but not the interests of the temple and the synagogue from which Christians had been excluded on pain of death. Have you by any chance read Acts 15:20, 29, 21:25?

You simply don't invent massive stumbling blocks like that, and put them in front of new believers. It has no scriptural precedent whatsoever, and was 100% Paul's invention. In the related passages of Romans 14:13 and 1 Cor 8:9, he even had the nerve to mention 'stumbling block', where he again practised this form of sorcery. And the church has swallowed it hook, line and sinker.

Yeah right, heard it all before, "The church has been wrong for 2000 years +/- but I have the true, truth." There is a long line of people saying almost the same thing, Charles Russell, Joseph Smith, Ellen White, Paul Wierville, Herbert Armstrong, Vernon Howell, L. Ron Hubbard, John Thomas, William J. Seymour, Elbert Spriggs, Kip McKean, David Berg, Mary Baker Eddy. Why should I believe you over any of them?

I no longer believe that he got saved on the road to Damascus; all he did was go undercover to do far more damage from within. And the church will see how much she has been damaged during the Great Tribulation, when she finds that she is utterly defenceless against the evil purposed against her. This is why I also believe that there will be a tremendous revival back to Torah, which is the ONLY way to receive the protection promised in Deut 28:1-14. But for most believers it will be too late, which is sad.

Nothing new, heard it all before doom and gloom. "The church has been wrong for 2000 years +/- but I have the true truth."

 

[The RedRose]

Acts 15:
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, "Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe."

I just Love Peter and so did Yahshua

RedRose

 

[Der Alte]

Charlie,

Many thanks! I like your interpretation of morning and evening, which of course has now arrived.

Paul said he "became as a Jew" (1 Cor 9:20), which would only be possible if he was a Gentile. Have you read Epiphanius? In Panarion 30.16.6-9, he said "The Ebionites (the Jerusalem church under James) declare that (Saul) was a Greek ... He went up to Jerusalem, they say, and when he had spent some time there, he was seized with a passion to marry the daughter of the priest. For this reason he became a proselyte and was circumcised. Then, when he failed to get the girl, he flew into a rage and wrote against circumcision and against the Sabbath and the law." There are other early sources which also claim that Saul was Greek, not Jewish.

And you think the Ebionites were right?

The Panarion of Epiphanius of Salamis

16:9 They then claim that he was Greek and the son of a Greek mother and Greek father, but that he had gone up to Jerusalem, stayed there for a while, desired to marry a daughter of the high priest, and had therefore became a proselyte and been circumcised. But since he still could not marry that sort of girl he became angry and wrote against circumcision, and against the Sabbath and the legislation.
17:1 But he is making a completely false accusation, this horrid serpent with his poverty of understanding. For 'Ebion,' translated from Hebrew to Greek, means 'poor.' For truly he is poor, in understanding, hope and actuality, since he regards Christ as a mere man, and thus has come to hope in him with poverty of faith.40
17:2 They themselves, if you please, boastfully claim that they are poor because they sold their possessions in the apostles' time and laid them at the apostles' feet, and went over to a life of poverty and renunciation;41 and thus, they say, they are called 'poor' by everyone.
17:3 But there is no truth to this claim of theirs either; he was really named Ebion.42 I suppose the poor wretch was named prophetically by his father and mother.

Panarion of Epiphanius of Salamis, Book 1.​

But I do believe that he learned much from Rabban Gamaliel, which is why he was so well-versed in the devious techniques of the oral law.

What you believe without evidence is not probative.

As for 30,000+ denominations, spot on! When Paul broke from the true church and went off to do his own thing, he introduced that spirit of division which has continued ever since, like an organism which keeps dividing into more and more cells. As the saying goes, 'divide and conquer'. No wonder the church has become so weak overall. Great job Paul - not.

Unsupported biased assumptions/presuppositions. Heard it all before, much the same as what LDS, JW, SDA, UPCI, OP, WWCG, all say.

 

[Der Alte]

www.mechon-mamre.org/mp3/t0531.mp3

@ 0:35

Yehoshua

This is how to say "Joshua" in Hebrew. That is from Deuteronomy 31 verse 3.

You can choose any passage from the OT here, and listen to the Hebrew:

Hebrew - English Bible by Books / Mechon-Mamre

Now that it is known how to say "Joshua" in Hebrew, simply read Zecheriah 6:

9 The word of the Lord came to me: 10 “Take silver and gold from the exiles
Heldai, Tobijah and Jedaiah, who have arrived from Babylon. Go the same day to the house of Josiah son of Zephaniah. 11 Take the silver and gold and make a crown, and set it on the head of the high priest, Joshua son of Jozadak.12 Tell him this is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘Here is the man whose name is the Branch, and he will branch out from his place and build the temple of the Lord. 13 It is he who will build the temple of the Lord, and he will be clothed with majesty and will sit and rule on his throne. And he[e] will be a priest on his throne. And there will be harmony between the two.’ 14 The crown will be given to Heldai, Tobijah, Jedaiah and Hen son of
Zephaniah as a memorial in the temple of the Lord. 15 Those who are far away will come and help to build the temple of the Lord, and you will know that the Lord Almighty has sent me to you. This will happen if you diligently obey the Lord your God.”[/COLOR]

Who is the Branch? Who's name is the Branch? Joshua. Or Yehoshua.

No need for some PaulhatersRUS website.

I know, that is why I provided the grammar from the Jewish Encyclopedia showing that יהושׁע is not pronounced Yahushua, but Yehoshua. Some unscriptural later theological systems have concocted their own pronunciation for Hebrew.

 

[Daniel121]

For the Jew to pronounce any art of the NAME, i.e. HaShem is a death penalty offense. So you will not find in a Jewish encyclopedia anything resembling the Truth about the Name.
Yah is most definitely a major part of the Name. Do a study, the Name has been deleted from what you call the OT almost if not exceeding 7000 times.

 

[Der Alte]

For the Jew to pronounce any art of the NAME, i.e. HaShem is a death penalty offense. So you will not find in a Jewish encyclopedia anything resembling the Truth about the Name.

Prove it don't just criticize!

Yah is most definitely a major part of the Name. Do a study, the Name has been deleted from what you call the OT almost if not exceeding 7000 times.

If pronouncing any part of the NAME, is a death penalty offense, how do we know that "Yah is most definitely a major part of the Name?" How do we know that Yah is anything resembling the Truth about the Name?

 

[Juanmz28]

I wouldn't be surprised if the OP is actually a Muslim..

 

[Der Alte]

Heinzzz,

Thank you for posting this. I was going to answer Der Alter with the same logic but coming form a bit of a different angle.

We read in Deuteronomy; This shows that the Torah was indeed written down and that every king of Israel was take on this task. This is important because it establishes the fact that the Torah was written by Moshe in Paleo-Hebrew. This written form of Hebrew has no vowel point's at all. Indeed we can only ascertain how it was spoken by the few words we are in existent today.

What are these few words and how does anyone know how the Paleo-Hebrew was spoken if there were no vowels or vowel points?

The words hallel, to praise, and Yah, a shorten form of the Word YHWH. The oooo sound would have come from the connecting agent of Waw.

And you know this how?

Since there are no vowel points that can be understood in this name we need to go by what oral clues we have.

What are those oral clues since nobody writes or speaks Paleo-Hebrew today?

Further more since the time of the Babylon exile the writers of Torah have been so afraid that the name YHWH might be spoken that they purposely used all kinds of misdirection to keep the uniformed from being able to find out how to speak the divine name. I believe this included improper directions on vowel points and misdirection.

And you know this how? Do you have a crystal ball?

So in a nut shell the vowel points in Hebrew don't mean diddly squat. Hee hee.

What doesn't mean diddly squat is the fairy tale you are spinning here with no, none, zero evidence. Just a bunch of conjecture and assumptions/presuppositions.

The Torah was never meant to be spoken or divided into words but rather to be read using hand gestures.

And you know this how? Still gazing into a crystal ball?

There is an old story that when the Septuagint was written the Rabbis tore their clothes, wore sackcloth and smeared their bodies with charcoal because it was a declaration that their Torah was dead or had been killed by trying to break down the Hebrew into words.

Anonymous fables and fairy tales are not evidence and are not credible.

Now to address Der Alter;
Many theologians hate the name usage of Yahushua in any form as they wrongly believe that there is no biblical evidence for it's usage. This misunderstanding comes from a lack of any real knowledge of scripture but rather a belief in such things as Wellhausen and other pseudo experts.

You mention "biblical evidence" but you have provided zero, zip such evidence. Never heard of Wellhausen. You might not have notices but I quoted the Jewish Encyclopedia. You might want to read the historical evidence provided by that source. So who should I believe recognized scholars such as Brown, Driver and Briggs or some anonymous dood using the pseudonym "Heinzzz."

In Zech. 3:1 we read. Now, where all the so called experts get this wrong is that the name here Eashoa or as you point out Joshua is meant to be a reference to Joshua bar Nun. Nothing could be further from the truth. Joshua lived almost a 1000 years before Zechariah wrote this prophecy. If it were a prophecy why in the world would it reference Joshua bar Nun. It wouldn't a prophecy is meant to point to future events. So what we have here is a clear and distinct pointer to Eashoa as the name of the coming Messiah! Further more it records His name as can clearly be seen in the Hebrew text as Yod, Shin, Waw, Ayin. or Yahshua! This is a clear and straight forward prophecy to Him that has been misunderstood by all those in the apostate faith of Paul. Notice that Satan is standing by His right hand to resist Him and the prophecy. So this would clearly show that His name is recorded by the prophets as Eashoa. So how do I get Yahushua? In John 1:18 we read. In the bosom of the Father, he hath declared Him. The divine name is YHWH. If we add the name of Eashoa into this name we get two names. The divine name and Him that declares him. To connect them we need the Waw connecting agent. Which is to say. Yahoshua! The shortened form of the divine name Yah the connecting agent and Eashoa. Elementary my dear Watson!

Many thanks to Victor Alexander for providing much of this information.

You write a lot of stuff but you have not explained how you arrived at the transliteration Eashua or Yahshua? John 1:18 does not provide any evidence for the pronunciaton of the Hebrew יהושׁע. There is no such thing in Hebrew as a waw connecting agent. There is a waw conjunction and the waw consecutive. Who is Victor Alexander and what are his qualifications in Hebrew?

חכם־לב יקח מצות ואויל שׂפתים ילבט׃​

 

[TorahMan]

I wouldn't be surprised if the OP is actually a Muslim..

You mean All Souls? He claims to be a Christian, and as of today has made 542 posts on this forum.

Interesting point though, because many Muslims are more informed about Paul than the average Christian. Because they only have the Bible to go on, they see through him like the sheet of glass that he is.

This is a major reason why Muslims hold Christianity in such low esteem. From their way of thinking, why should they join a religion which elevates such a dodgy character as Paul to the greatest apostle? For Muslims who are used to performing religious works, what is there about Paul's works-free gospel to attract them? Nothing.

Works-free salvation is one thing. I have no problem with that. But a works-free way of life is entirely different; something which I (and many others) find completely repugnant. Jesus showed me His love by dying on the cross, so the least I can do in return is obey His commandments. And to do it without arguing or looking for ways out, as most Christians seem to do, sad to say.

TorahMan

 

[IchoozJC]

You mean All Souls? He claims to be a Christian, and as of today has made 542 posts on this forum.

Interesting point though, because many Muslims are more informed about Paul than the average Christian. Because they only have the Bible to go on, they see through him like the sheet of glass that he is.

This is a major reason why Muslims hold Christianity in such low esteem. From their way of thinking, why should they join a religion which elevates such a dodgy character as Paul to the greatest apostle? For Muslims who are used to performing religious works, what is there about Paul's works-free gospel to attract them? Nothing.

Works-free salvation is one thing. I have no problem with that. But a works-free way of life is entirely different; something which I (and many others) find completely repugnant. Jesus showed me His love by dying on the cross, so the least I can do in return is obey His commandments. And to do it without arguing or looking for ways out, as most Christians seem to do, sad to say.

TorahMan

So, you just make things up as you go? Keep throwing until something sticks, eh?

I agree, Paul is like a sheet of glass. Its easy to see the truth in his teachings. Unlike the muddy waters of judaizers. Which law today should I struggle to obey? Maybe today I'll do better than yesterday and earn some more of God's favor? Nah, I'll just enter the rest and live by His Spirit.

 

[Der Alte]

You mean All Souls? He claims to be a Christian, and as of today has made 542 posts on this forum.

Interesting point though, because many Muslims are more informed about Paul than the average Christian. Because they only have the Bible to go on, they see through him like the sheet of glass that he is.

And you know all this how?

This is a major reason why Muslims hold Christianity in such low esteem. From their way of thinking, why should they join a religion which elevates such a dodgy character as Paul to the greatest apostle? For Muslims who are used to performing religious works, what is there about Paul's works-free gospel to attract them? Nothing.

Right! Islam is really a good place to get information about Christianity. That's about like taking advice on Judaism from a Palestinian.

Works-free salvation is one thing. I have no problem with that. But a works-free way of life is entirely different; something which I (and many others) find completely repugnant.

It would be if it was true. For the record what kind of works do you think are required for Christians? What must we do according to you?

Jesus showed me His love by dying on the cross, so the least I can do in return is obey His commandments. And to do it without arguing or looking for ways out, as most Christians seem to do, sad to say.

TorahMan

Baseless attack on Christians. Can you give us some examples of "looking for ways out, as most Christians seem to do?"