Thinking of universal salvation

[By Faith Alone]

Isa 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased (REPHAIM) ....they shall not rise: ....therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and.... made all their memory to perish.

The Rephaim is plural and the product of fallen angels that corrupted flesh before the flood. They were monsters.

Looking now to:
Prov 21:16 The man that wandereth out of the way of understanding.... shall remain in the congregation of the... dead (REPHAIM).

Prov. 21: 16 clearly teaches that the sinner will end up in destruction like the Rephaim

 

[Hillsage]

A lot of stuff there.

I ask you. IF there is universal reconciliation or salvation...what happens to Lucifer?

A pastor, who was well schooled in the ways of orthodoxy, was hit by the following scripture when he was seeking GOD (and not the written works of men) for an answer to your very question. The scripture which given to him was;

Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

The question which was asked of him following that scripture was this; WHAT NEEDS TO BE RECONCILED IN HEAVEN? He later became a believer in a better plan by a bigger God than he had believed in before.

 

[By Faith Alone]

Thank you for your unsupported opinion. The Talmud shows what the Jews believed before and during the time of Jesus. When Jesus knew that the Elders of Israel were wrong He corrected their teaching, "You have heard it said ... but I say to you..." When Jesus taught about "furnace of fire where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,""hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched" and "eternal punishment" it supported and affirmed what the Jews beleived about hell. Jesus did not correct the Jews and He never said His teaching on Hell was a figure of speech. My evidence which you ignored is in [post=65656362]Post #13[/post]

Pardon me. I don't give a rip snort about what anybody says unless it is backed up with the Holy Writ. If people kept their noses out of the extra-Biblical garbage as a firm guideline of instruction we may get somewhere.

If you so desire you may ignore Isaiah when the CARCASES were there when the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched. That will be to YOUR discredit and not mine come judgment. That is the visible hell. Gehenna. The valley of the Son of Hinnom. It is SW of Jerusalem. The area was unclean by the actions of an earlier King and was not fit for anything other than a garbage dump. It was set ablaze to burn the garbage. Any criminal or anyone not deserving burial were thrown in along with dead animals. What the fire did not consume the worms took care of the rest. YUM YUM.

The day the Lord brings Israel back into the land:
Ezek 20:38 And... I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me..... I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and ....they shall not enter into the land of Israel....: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

These rebels were left out in the gentile nations to be persecuted. THAT was outer darkness. They are under the tremendous fires of persecution. INSIDE the land the Lord ruled with a rod of iron to keep the enemy out and THERE is where righteousness will shine. OUTSIDE will not be illuminated by His presence.

Here is what Jesus said of the Jews/Pharisees:

John 10:24-26
24 Then came... the Jews.... round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

He said they believed not because they are not His sheep. He did NOT say they were not His sheep because they did not believe. They were NOT of the lost sheep of the house of Israel. The term Jew is abused and darkens the counsel of God.

It will take another thread to show about the Babylonian Talmud and the tradition of the elders. That group carries on today. They pervert the Gospel as well.

 

[Der Alte]

Isa 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased (REPHAIM) ....they shall not rise: ....therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and.... made all their memory to perish.

The Rephaim is plural and the product of fallen angels that corrupted flesh before the flood. They were monsters.

You blew off the lexicons and concordances, etc. that I quoted before as "MUCH unnecessary chaff." How do you know the word is rephaim and that it is plural? How do you know it is the product of fallen angels? The word rephaim also means ghosts. It is translated as "shades" in the Jewish Publication Society translation. Can you prove that the JPS is wrong?

Looking now to:
Prov 21:16 The man that wandereth out of the way of understanding.... shall remain in the congregation of the... dead (REPHAIM).

Prov. 21: 16 clearly teaches that the sinner will end up in destruction like the Rephaim

The JPS translates Pr 21:16 "The man that strayeth out of the way of understanding shall rest in the congregation of the shades."

Isaiah 14:9-10 describes what happened when the king of Babylon died.

Isa 14:9-10
(9) Hell [שׁאל/sheol] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead [רפאים/rephaim] for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
(10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?​

These rephaim in sheol are moved, stirred up, raised up and they speak, etc.

 

[Der Alte]

Pardon me. I don't give a rip snort about what anybody says unless it is backed up with the Holy Writ. If people kept their noses out of the extra-Biblical garbage as a firm guideline of instruction we may get somewhere.

And I don't give a rip snort about all the misquoted, out-of-context proof texts and your unsupported opinion. Such as the next paragrpah.

If you so desire you may ignore Isaiah when the CARCASES were there when the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched. That will be to YOUR discredit and not mine come judgment. That is the visible hell. Gehenna. The valley of the Son of Hinnom. It is SW of Jerusalem. The area was unclean by the actions of an earlier King and was not fit for anything other than a garbage dump. It was set ablaze to burn the garbage. Any criminal or anyone not deserving burial were thrown in along with dead animals. What the fire did not consume the worms took care of the rest. YUM YUM.

Please show me from scripture where the valley of hinnom was ever used as a garbage dump or a place for burning dead bodies? I know, for a fact, that scripture does not say anything like this. So it appears you use "extra-biblical garbage" when it suits your purpose and appears to support your assumptions/presuppositions. Please do lecture me some more about my sources.

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.

Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992

Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1​

Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.” (“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)

G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:

“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)

The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism - Bible Truth Discussion Forum​

. . . It will take another thread to show about the Babylonian Talmud and the tradition of the elders. That group carries on today. They pervert the Gospel as well.

Don't waste your time. You have nothing to say about the Talmud that I am interested in. As I have shown with your comments about Gehenna, whatever it is will be twisted, misquoted, etc. Nothing you have said even begins to address my posts. All these scriptures do not address anything I said. All I see is "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh Huh!"

 

[Timothew]

Isa 14:9-10
(9) Hell [שׁאל/sheol] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead [רפאים/rephaim] for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
(10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
These rephaim in sheol are moved, stirred up, raised up and they speak, etc.

Yes, I agree. The dead in Sheol walk and talk. No doubt about that. And the trees talk to people in Hell!

Isaiah 14:8
Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.

Why do you always skip over verse 8 when you quote Isaiah 14:9-10?

(Incidentally, why don't the talking trees burn up in the everlasting fire? Are they fireproof like those asbestos worms in Isaiah 66:24?)

I almost want to go to hell, just to see talking trees. I've never seen a talking tree, except in movies. Remember that scene in The Wizard of Oz with the talking apple trees? When I was a kid that was one of the scariest scenes in the movie. That, and when the witch sent the flying monkeys. Are there going to be flying monkeys in hell? That would be awesome.

But I suppose those of us in the real world know how to separate fantasy (and figurative literature) from reality.

Seriously, Isaiah 14 is specifically said to be a taunt against the king of Babylon. See verse 4: "you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon". When you were a kid, if someone taunted you saying "Up your nose with a rubber hose" did you actually stick a hose up your nose? Taunts are meant to be hyperbolic. "Your momma is so fat that when she sits around the house, she sits AROUND the house" is not meant to be taken literally!

You are a smart guy, read the context. Take the genre into account when you read. Don't just accept the traditional view and then search around for passages that you think might support it.

 

[Der Alte]

Yes, I agree. The dead in Sheol walk and talk. No doubt about that. And the trees talk to people in Hell!

More sophomoric sarcasm and mocking which ignores the many times I have refuted this objection in this and the other forum.

Isaiah 14:8
Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.

Why do you always skip over verse 8 when you quote Isaiah 14:9-10?

I don't, the fact that vs. 8 is figurative does not prove anything about any other verse. We, at least I, know that trees do not talk but have you ever died gone to sheol and returned to tell us what happens there? I haven't so we have no experiential, empirical knowledge tthat the dead in sheol do or do not talk or move.

(Incidentally, why don't the talking trees burn up in the everlasting fire? Are they fireproof like those asbestos worms in Isaiah 66:24?)

How about that asbestos bush in Exodus and the three asbestos Hebrew slaves thrown into a furnace so hot that it killed the people who threw them into the furnace. But wait I guess you believe that God is impotent and cannot keep worms alive or keep people alive in a tremendously hot furnace.

As I have PROVED several times before based on historical evidence the Hell:No! view being presented in this forum is not Biblical. The Jews, in Israel before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of unending, fiery torment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol. When Jesus taught about "Eternal punishment,""the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die," and "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth," that supported and validated the existing view of eternal hell. Jesus was born into and grew to maturity in that culture. He knew what His countrymen, the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong Jesus would have corrected them. He did not, thus their teaching on hell was correct. Here is historical evidence to support this. Jesus did not tell the Jews that the worm that does not die and the fire is not quenched was only figurative and the Jews did not tell Him that it was figurative.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).

But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

Jewish Encyclopedia Online
====================================================================
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.

The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."

Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

I almost want to go to hell, just to see talking trees. I've never seen a talking tree, except in movies. Remember that scene in The Wizard of Oz with the talking apple trees? When I was a kid that was one of the scariest scenes in the movie. That, and when the witch sent the flying monkeys. Are there going to be flying monkeys in hell? That would be awesome.

But I suppose those of us in the real world know how to separate fantasy (and figurative literature) from reality.

Real world or in their own world? Have you died gone to sheol and returned and can tell us from your own experience that Isaiah 14:9 is figurative? Here is another passage where God himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc. And there are no talking trees from which you can attempt to make this figurative.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [[size=+1]שאול][/size] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.​

Seriously, Isaiah 14 is specifically said to be a taunt against the king of Babylon. See verse 4: "you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon".

Being a taunt does not mean it is not literal. Was there a literal king of Babylon, did he literally die? Was he literally buried, vs. 8? Was he literally covered with worms, vs. 11? Wait I know it is always figurative when it contradicts one of your false doctrines. Did the nation Israel become figurative when God said they would become a proverb?

Deu 28:37 And thou shalt become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword, among all nations whither the LORD shall lead thee.​

When you were a kid, if someone taunted you saying "Up your nose with a rubber hose" did you actually stick a hose up your nose? Taunts are meant to be hyperbolic. "Your momma is so fat that when she sits around the house, she sits AROUND the house" is not meant to be taken literally!

Totally irrelevant anybody can concoct imaginary examples which appear to support their false arguments.

You are a smart guy, read the context. Take the genre into account when you read. Don't just accept the traditional view and then search around for passages that you think might support it.

You read the context. Take the genre into account when you read. Don't just accept the traditional Hell: No! view and then search around for passages that you think might support it and ignore all the historical evidence which I have provided, more than once.

 

[RevelationTestament]

I have developed a great sadness and horror at the thought of some people going to hell, either eternal or temporary. Even if I get to heaven though faith or whatnot, the thought of my fellow humans going to hell is very depressing. I am no different from them, and I easily could have been in their place... this is horrifying to me. I cannot be at peace and enjoy God while he does not save other people from suffering.

It is hard for me to accept a God who creates people into a world where they are in danger of going to hell. If God is good, why would he let people suffer in hell? Even if we have free will, would any person willfully choose eternal or temporary suffering in hell? I don't think they would if they they were convinced of the existence of hell and the reality of the danger of going there. These are rhetorical questions so far, don't answer them.

When I look at the situation that man is in, with our lack of ability to know absolute reality, all we got is guesses at what reality is. Would God expect us to discover absolute reality and the truth about what one needs to do to be saved? Man has always tried to discover it, yet we never will... certainty is impossible for man in this world.

What I'm looking for here, is some information on books or websites that believe in universal salvation to everyone thought Christ's death and resurrection as the one who took the guilt of mankind and saved everyone from eternal and temporary hell. I'm wondering if anyone out there holds this view and can give arguments for it biblically... websites or organizations etc.

1 Peter 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Revelation says hell shall give up the dead to be judged. The wicked get resurrected too according to Revelation and Jesus.

Jesus said it too:
John 5:25
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live

I believe Peter is going on to explain that those he preached to in prison were "the dead" ie spirits awaiting resurrection.
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

To me he is saying he went in preached to disobedient spirits, but they who had potential to live godly and believe and be resurrected.

1 Peter 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.


LDS have some additional scripture you may be interested in:
D&C 76
50 And again we bear record—for we asaw and heard, and this is the btestimony of the cgospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the djust—

51 They are they who received the atestimony of Jesus, and bbelieved on his name and were cbaptized after the dmanner of his burial, being eburied in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—

52 That by akeeping the commandments they might be bwashed and ccleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the dhands of him who is eordained and sealed unto this power;

53 And who aovercome by faith, and are bsealed by the Holy Spirit of cpromise, which the Father dsheds forth upon all those who are just and true.

54 They are they who are the achurch of the bFirstborn.

55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given aall things—

56 They are they who are apriests and bkings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;

57 And are apriests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of bEnoch, which was after the corder of the Only Begotten Son.

58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are agods, even the bsons of cGod—

59 Wherefore, aall things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.

60 And they shall aovercome all things.

61 Wherefore, let no man aglory in man, but rather let him bglory in God, who shall csubdue all enemies under his feet.

62 These shall adwell in the bpresence of God and his Christ forever and ever.

63 These are they whom he shall bring with him, when he shall acome in the bclouds of heaven to creign on the earth over his people.

64 These are they who shall have part in the afirst resurrection.

65 These are they who shall come forth in the resurrection of the ajust.

66 These are they who are come unto aMount bZion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly place, the holiest of all.

67 These are they who have come to an innumerable company of aangels, to the general assembly and church of bEnoch, and of the cFirstborn.

68 These are they whose names are awritten in heaven, where God and Christ are the bjudge of all.

69 These are they who are ajust men made bperfect through Jesus the mediator of the cnew covenant, who wrought out this perfect datonement through the shedding of his own eblood.

70 These are they whose bodies are acelestial, whose bglory is that of the csun, even the glory of God, the dhighest of all, whose glory the sun of the firmament is written of as being typical.

71 And again, we saw the aterrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of the bFirstborn who have received the fulness of the Father, even as that of the cmoon differs from the sun in the firmament.

72 Behold, these are they who died awithout blaw;

73 And also they who are the aspirits of men kept in bprison, whom the Son visited, and cpreached the dgospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;

74 Who areceived not the btestimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.

75 These are they who are ahonorable men of the earth, who were bblinded by the craftiness of men.

76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness.

77 These are they who receive of the apresence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.

78 Wherefore, they are abodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun.

79 These are they who are not avaliant in the btestimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God.

80 And now this is the end of the avision which we saw of the terrestrial, that the Lord commanded us to bwrite while we were yet in the Spirit.

81 And again, we asaw the glory of the btelestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the cglory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.

82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the atestimony of Jesus.

83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.

84 These are they who are thrust down to hell.

85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

So since we are creating limits, how much suffering of the innocent is ok for God to allow before we see Him as merciless?

 

[Hillsage]

So since we are creating limits, how much suffering of the innocent is ok for God to allow before we see Him as merciless?

The Jews might say 400 years is/was a pretty good limit. But they might still be wrong, even with that answer, I suppose.

 

[Vanguard PCD]

I have developed a great sadness and horror at the thought of some people going to hell, either eternal or temporary. Even if I get to heaven though faith or whatnot, the thought of my fellow humans going to hell is very depressing. I am no different from them, and I easily could have been in their place... this is horrifying to me. I cannot be at peace and enjoy God while he does not save other people from suffering.

It is hard for me to accept a God who creates people into a world where they are in danger of going to hell. If God is good, why would he let people suffer in hell? Even if we have free will, would any person willfully choose eternal or temporary suffering in hell? I don't think they would if they they were convinced of the existence of hell and the reality of the danger of going there. These are rhetorical questions so far, don't answer them.

When I look at the situation that man is in, with our lack of ability to know absolute reality, all we got is guesses at what reality is. Would God expect us to discover absolute reality and the truth about what one needs to do to be saved? Man has always tried to discover it, yet we never will... certainty is impossible for man in this world.

What I'm looking for here, is some information on books or websites that believe in universal salvation to everyone thought Christ's death and resurrection as the one who took the guilt of mankind and saved everyone from eternal and temporary hell. I'm wondering if anyone out there holds this view and can give arguments for it biblically... websites or organizations etc.

I have given this a lot of thought over the years, and I often ask clergymen questions such as:

1. What happened to the people that died before Jesus?

2. What happens to remote jungle people that die and never had the opportunity to hear of Jesus?

3. What happens if someone like Hitler, during the resurrection and judgment per Revelation 20, has reformed and is forgiven, thus getting passage to the new earth (paradise)?

Their answers are always best guess, because they truly don't have a clue.

I have come to my own conclusions:

1. Hell (Gehenna - lake of fire) is not a fiery place of torment for anyone/anything other than the devil, the beast and the false prophet. Go read Revelation 20. No where does it say humans are sent to hell for an eternal fiery punishment.

2. Satan and the devil are not the same thing. Satan is simply a Hebrew term that means "adversary" in English. In the Hebrew it is always "ha-satan" or "the adversary," and it is a title, not a name. I always wondered why an all powerful God, the great creator, had to have this arch enemy that He could not do anything with. Then I opened my eyes and realized Christians need to purge mythology from their beliefs, and start accepting responsibility for their actions instead of blaming some mythical bad guy.

3. All will be given the chance to accept Jesus as their savior during the resurrections and judgment. That solves the problem of #1 and #2 from the set of questions above. God is a loving God and does not want to see His creations destroyed.

As to the John 3:16 comment above, that verse does not state WHEN someone has to believe in Jesus, only that they have to in order to receive eternal life on new earth (paradise). And if you want to talk semantics, that verse only states that a belief in Jesus is necessary...I can be a Agnostic and believe He exists, but hate Him with a passion; however, per the way that verse is worded, I am covered.

 

[By Faith Alone]

We are bound by His WORD and not His ways.
"If God is a God of Love then..."

"If God is just then...."

Everything beyond "then" is speculation and a realm we ought not enter.

Paul said:
Acts 20:26-27
26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that.... I am pure from the blood of all men.
27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you ....all the counsel of God.

Please show me the teachings of Paul that says there is eternal torment in hell. Is Paul a liar and deceiver?

 

[Der Alte]

I have given this a lot of thought over the years, and I often ask clergymen questions such as:

1. What happened to the people that died before Jesus?

2. What happens to remote jungle people that die and never had the opportunity to hear of Jesus?

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.​

3. What happens if someone like Hitler, during the resurrection and judgment per Revelation 20, has reformed and is forgiven, thus getting passage to the new earth (paradise)?

Do you have any scriptural support for Hitler, or anyone else, having an opportunity to reform after death? See Heb 9:27.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:​

I don't see any opportunity for anyone to be reformed between "die" and "judgment."

Their answers are always best guess, because they truly don't have a clue.

I doubt this very much.

I have come to my own conclusions:

1. Hell (Gehenna - lake of fire) is not a fiery place of torment for anyone/anything other than the devil, the beast and the false prophet. Go read Revelation 20. No where does it say humans are sent to hell for an eternal fiery punishment.

Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

That the torment is unending is emphasized by the phrase "they have no rest day nor night" 10[sup]100[/sup] times 10[sup]100[/sup] eons from now God's unchanging word will still say "he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone ... And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night,"

2. Satan and the devil are not the same thing. Satan is simply a Hebrew term that means "adversary" in English. In the Hebrew it is always "ha-satan" or "the adversary," and it is a title, not a name. I always wondered why an all powerful God, the great creator, had to have this arch enemy that He could not do anything with. Then I opened my eyes and realized Christians need to purge mythology from their beliefs, and start accepting responsibility for their actions instead of blaming some mythical bad guy.

Who was Jesus conversing with in this passage? Does Jesus need "to purge mythology from [his] beliefs?"

Mat 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Mat 4:5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
Mat 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Mat 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.​

3. All will be given the chance to accept Jesus as their savior during the resurrections and judgment. That solves the problem of #1 and #2 from the set of questions above. God is a loving God and does not want to see His creations destroyed.

Scripture which supports the highlighted statement? See Heb 9:27.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:​

As to the John 3:16 comment above, that verse does not state WHEN someone has to believe in Jesus, only that they have to in order to receive eternal life on new earth (paradise). And if you want to talk semantics, that verse only states that a belief in Jesus is necessary...I can be a Agnostic and believe He exists, but hate Him with a passion; however, per the way that verse is worded, I am covered.

John 3;16 is not the only relevant scripture.

 

[Vanguard PCD]

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
​

Do you have any scriptural support for Hitler, or anyone else, having an opportunity to reform after death? See Heb 9:27.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
​

I don't see any opportunity for anyone to be reformed between "die" and "judgment."



I doubt this very much.

Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
​

That the torment is unending is emphasized by the phrase "they have no rest day nor night" 10[sup]100[/sup] times 10[sup]100[/sup] eons from now God's unchanging word will still say "he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone ... And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night,"



Who was Jesus conversing with in this passage? Does Jesus need "to purge mythology from [his] beliefs?"

Mat 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Mat 4:5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
Mat 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Mat 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
​

Scripture which supports the highlighted statement? See Heb 9:27.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
​

John 3;16 is not the only relevant scripture.

Yes, yes...your usual long winded posts which no one really reads through anymore. As to who was Jesus conversing with, that would be "The Adversary" or "The Accuser," who was doing his appointed job.

 

[Der Alte]

Yes, yes...your usual long winded posts which no one really reads through anymore. As to who was Jesus conversing with, that would be "The Adversary" or "The Accuser," who was doing his appointed job.

I was addressing a long winded post! If you don't want a long response don't post long posts full of unsupported assumptions/presuppositions. In other words you can't address anything I said. Unfortunately scripture does not say that Jesus "was conversing with, ...'The Adversary' or 'The Accuser,' who was doing his appointed job." Where was the adversary/the accuser given this supposed appointed job?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

The Jews might say 400 years is/was a pretty good limit. But they might still be wrong, even with that answer, I suppose.

I would not think the suffering of an infant to be very funny. The question was a serious one relating to the view claiming that if God allowed endless suffering for those He judged deserved it that He would be without mercy.

So the infant that is suffering through not fault of it's own, at what point do we say God is merciless for allowing that to continue?
Or do we say God only show mercy on the damned?

 

[Hillsage]

I would not think the suffering of an infant to be very funny.

And I totally agree. And I'll go you one better; suffering of anyone is not funny...whether it be infant/parent/sinner/saint...not even a murderer. But that's just a personal opinion.

The question was a serious one...

As was my answer.

....relating to the view claiming that if God allowed endless suffering for those He judged deserved it that He would be without mercy.

Grammatically I don't really know what you're saying here, and find it difficult to respond.

So the infant that is suffering through not fault of it's own, at what point do we say God is merciless for allowing that to continue?
Or do we say God only show mercy on the damned?

Personally I consider it wrong ever "say God is merciless". And those who do say that, are the ones who believe in 'never ending''everlasting'/eternal purposeless torture. To me, that would be a merciless God. But I don't believe that way, so I don't believe He is merciless.

 

[By Faith Alone]

I have given this a lot of thought over the years, and I often ask clergymen questions such as:
1. What happened to the people that died before Jesus?
2. What happens to remote jungle people that die and never had the opportunity to hear of Jesus?

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

 

[DrBubbaLove]

And I totally agree. And I'll go you one better; suffering of anyone is not funny...whether it be infant/parent/sinner/saint...not even a murderer. But that's just a personal opinion.

As was my answer.

Grammatically I don't really know what you're saying here, and find it difficult to respond.

Personally I consider it wrong ever "say God is merciless". And those who do say that, are the ones who believe in 'never ending''everlasting'/eternal purposeless torture. To me, that would be a merciless God. But I don't believe that way, so I don't believe He is merciless.

So God would be merciless if He allowed endless suffering of the damned, but He is not merciless to allow the suffering of the innocent.

So is the contention that there can be any length of time (short of eternal) for the innocent to suffer and God is not a monster for allowing it????????

 

[Hillsage]

So God would be merciless if He allowed endless suffering of the damned,

My answer is very much a yes; endless 'torture' of those whom He 'damned to begin with' and then had never "drawn/called/predestined/fore-ordained/elected" would be merciless. That's His 'doing'...both damning and saving.

but He is not merciless to allow the suffering of the innocent.

But allowing the suffering of the innocent might not be God's 'doing'...though it would be His 'allowing'. Eternal purposeless torture 'would be' His doing IMO.

So is the contention that there can be any length of time (short of eternal) for the innocent to suffer and God is not a monster for allowing it????????

Maybe you also need to define your "innocent" ones and give me an example of their "suffering". I might not be on the same page you are.