Why do Arminians...

[Hammster]

OK, refresh my memory as to what your definnition of synergism, please.

In a nutshell, faith before regeneration.

 

[nobdysfool]

If the Greeks way back used the word the way they did, there must be a good reason.

Are you going to claim that the LXX was inspired? Besides, the real meat of the question is, how did the Greek-speaking people of the time understand helkuo?

Oh, sure. God changes the heart of one who doesn't want his heart changed. And that isn't 'force' to you.

You make God's action sound like a bad thing. Since when and with what Scriptural support does God need man's permission to change the man's heart? Most unsaved people don't even realize that they need their heart changed. So there would not be any conscious resistance to God's change of their hearts. Man's will simply isn't part of that equation, at all!

Uh, as in 'against one's will', which describes your busy street analogy?

One must decide whether God's Will reigns supreme, or man's will does. Which is it?

 

[OzSpen]

In a nutshell, faith before regeneration.

This is why synergism is a misleading concept. Faith, repentance, regeneration-new birth, justification and conversion happen simultaneously - in my understanding. But that's not how you see it in RT.

See, 'Does regeneration precede faith?'

I was reading in Calvin’s Institutes where he equates repentance with regeneration. John Calvin in Institutes of the Christian Religion, III.3.9-10, wrote:

9. Both of these we obtain by union with Christ. For if we have true fellowship in his death, our old man is crucified by his power, and the body of sin becomes dead, so that the corruption of our original nature is never again in full vigor (Rom. 6:5, 6). If we are partakers in his resurrection, we are raised up by means of it to newness of life, which conforms us to the righteousness of God. In one word, then, by repentance I understand regeneration, French, “une regeneration spirituelle;”—a spiritual regeneration. the only aim of which is to form in us anew the image of God, which was sullied, and all but effaced by the transgression of Adam. So the Apostle teaches when he says, “We all with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, as by the Spirit of the Lord.” Again, “Be renewed in the spirit of your minds” and “put ye on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.” Again, “Put ye on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him.” 2 Cor. 3:18; Eph. 4:23, 24; Col. 3:10; 2 Cor. 4:16. Accordingly through the blessing of Christ we are renewed by that regeneration into the righteousness of God from which we had fallen through Adam, the Lord being pleased in this manner to restore the integrity of all whom he appoints to the inheritance of life. This renewal, indeed, is not accomplished in a moment, a day, or a year, but by uninterrupted, sometimes even by slow progress God abolishes the remains of carnal corruption in his elect, cleanses them from pollution, and consecrates them as his temples, restoring all their inclinations to real purity, so that during their whole lives they may practice repentance, and know that death is the only termination to this warfare. The greater is the effrontery of an impure raver and apostate, named Staphylus, who pretends that I confound the condition of the present life with the celestial glory, when, after Paul, I make the image of God to consist in righteousness and true holiness; as if in every definition it were not necessary to take the thing defined in its integrity and perfection. It is not denied that there is room for improvement; but what I maintain is, that the nearer any one approaches in resemblance to God, the more does the image of God appear in him. That believers may attain to it, God assigns repentance as the goal towards which they must keep running during the whole course of their lives.

10. By regeneration the children of God are delivered from the bondage of sin, but not as if they had already obtained full possession of freedom, and no longer felt any annoyance from the flesh. Materials for an unremitting contest remain, that they may be exercised, and not only exercised, but may better understand their weakness. All writers of sound judgment agree in this, that, in the regenerate man, there is still a spring of evil which is perpetually sending forth desires that allure and stimulate him to sin… (my emphasis).
​

There is no mention here of regeneration/repentance prior to faith.


Oz

 

[Skala]

If the Greeks way back used the word the way they did, there must be a good reason.

Yea, because there's nothing wrong with the word "draw". It's a fine and dandy word.

The only problem is that you don't really believe the definition(s) of helkuo

 

[Skala]

This is why synergism is a misleading concept. Faith, repentance, regeneration-new birth, justification and conversion happen simultaneously - in my understanding. But that's not how you see it in RT.

Because we don't mean "before" in a temporal sense (ie, pertaining to the physical passing of time), but rather, a logical sense (the one gives rise to the other)

 

[OzSpen]

Because we don't mean "before" in a temporal sense (ie, pertaining to the physical passing of time), but rather, a logical sense (the one gives rise to the other)

And I mean simultaneously in a logical sense. But your RT requires the regeneration logically prior to faith. Not so, as I understand Scripture. Many have refuted regeneration prior to faith (and I gave one link previously) and I'm not going to repeat the arguments. We go over and over them too much on CF.

 

[stan1953]

Yea, because there's nothing wrong with the word "draw". It's a fine and dandy word.
The only problem is that you don't really believe the definition(s) of helkuo

Even the KJV didn't use drag, so I have no problem with the actual connotation that has been used for centuries. Anyone who has had no exposure to the dogma of RT would never think DRAW means DRAG.

 

[Hammster]

This is why synergism is a misleading concept. Faith, repentance, regeneration-new birth, justification and conversion happen simultaneously - in my understanding. But that's not how you see it in RT.

See, 'Does regeneration precede faith?'

I was reading in Calvin’s Institutes where he equates repentance with regeneration. John Calvin in Institutes of the Christian Religion, III.3.9-10, wrote:

9. Both of these we obtain by union with Christ. For if we have true fellowship in his death, our old man is crucified by his power, and the body of sin becomes dead, so that the corruption of our original nature is never again in full vigor (Rom. 6:5, 6). If we are partakers in his resurrection, we are raised up by means of it to newness of life, which conforms us to the righteousness of God. In one word, then, by repentance I understand regeneration, French, “une regeneration spirituelle;”—a spiritual regeneration. the only aim of which is to form in us anew the image of God, which was sullied, and all but effaced by the transgression of Adam. So the Apostle teaches when he says, “We all with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, as by the Spirit of the Lord.” Again, “Be renewed in the spirit of your minds” and “put ye on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.” Again, “Put ye on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him.” 2 Cor. 3:18; Eph. 4:23, 24; Col. 3:10; 2 Cor. 4:16. Accordingly through the blessing of Christ we are renewed by that regeneration into the righteousness of God from which we had fallen through Adam, the Lord being pleased in this manner to restore the integrity of all whom he appoints to the inheritance of life. This renewal, indeed, is not accomplished in a moment, a day, or a year, but by uninterrupted, sometimes even by slow progress God abolishes the remains of carnal corruption in his elect, cleanses them from pollution, and consecrates them as his temples, restoring all their inclinations to real purity, so that during their whole lives they may practice repentance, and know that death is the only termination to this warfare. The greater is the effrontery of an impure raver and apostate, named Staphylus, who pretends that I confound the condition of the present life with the celestial glory, when, after Paul, I make the image of God to consist in righteousness and true holiness; as if in every definition it were not necessary to take the thing defined in its integrity and perfection. It is not denied that there is room for improvement; but what I maintain is, that the nearer any one approaches in resemblance to God, the more does the image of God appear in him. That believers may attain to it, God assigns repentance as the goal towards which they must keep running during the whole course of their lives.

10. By regeneration the children of God are delivered from the bondage of sin, but not as if they had already obtained full possession of freedom, and no longer felt any annoyance from the flesh. Materials for an unremitting contest remain, that they may be exercised, and not only exercised, but may better understand their weakness. All writers of sound judgment agree in this, that, in the regenerate man, there is still a spring of evil which is perpetually sending forth desires that allure and stimulate him to sin… (my emphasis).
​

There is no mention here of regeneration/repentance prior to faith.


Oz

Logically, faith comes first in your theology.

 

[stan1953]

Because we don't mean "before" in a temporal sense (ie, pertaining to the physical passing of time), but rather, a logical sense (the one gives rise to the other)

How convenient for you that you recognize some senses and not others. You recognize 'effectual sense' for salvation, but not for death. That is a fairly schizophrenic position IMO.

 

[Hammster]

And I mean simultaneously in a logical sense. But your RT requires the regeneration logically prior to faith. Not so, as I understand Scripture. Many have refuted regeneration prior to faith (and I gave one link previously) and I'm not going to repeat the arguments. We go over and over them too much on CF.

It can't be logically at the same time. That's illogical.

 

[Hammster]

Even the KJV didn't use drag, so I have no problem with the actual connotation that has been used for centuries. Anyone who has had no exposure to the dogma of RT would never think DRAW means DRAG.

How about draw as in draw a sword or draw water from a well?

 

[stan1953]

Logically, faith comes first in your theology.

Faith does come first in salvation.

Luke 7:50 and 18:42

 

[Hammster]

Faith does come first in salvation.

Luke 7:50 and 18:42

In justification, yes. No doubt about it.

 

[stan1953]

How about draw as in draw a sword or draw water from a well?

Still doesn't mean drag, just a different type of drawing. How about DRAW as in "If I am lifted up I will DRAW all men unto me."

Do you not understand what CONNOTATIONS are?

 

[Hammster]

Still doesn't mean drag, just a different type of drawing. How about DRAW as in "If I am lifted up I will DRAW all men unto me."

Do you not understand what CONNOTATIONS are?

I never said it meant drag. But it doesn't mean to woo or lure or whatever you think it means.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Still doesn't mean drag, just a different type of drawing. How about DRAW as in "If I am lifted up I will DRAW all men unto me."

Do you not understand what CONNOTATIONS are?

Jesus does draw all men to himself, as stated in John 12:32. I don't believe anyone here has denied that.

 

[stan1953]

I never said it meant drag. But it doesn't mean to woo or lure or whatever you think it means.

Well when you use those words, of course not. What it conveys is seen in the metaphorical use of helko, to signify "drawing" by inward power, by Divine impulse. Not against our will, but in empathy towards our inner heart.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

I never said it meant drag. But it doesn't mean to woo or lure or whatever you think it means.

He can make it mean whatever he wants. It doesn't matter. John 6:44 says no one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him, and he will be raised up on the last day. The one who is drawn is raised. There is no one drawn who isn't raised, and there is no one raised who wasn't already drawn. Therefore if all (without qualification) are drawn (as is being exegetically implied by Stan1953 in John 12:32), then necessarily all are raised (i.e. universalism).

There are [by my estimation] at least three ways of dealing with this: (1) create an exegetical blunder and say the "him" of 6:44a is a different "him" than 6:44b, (2) accept universalism and accept that all are drawn and all are raised, and (3) see Jn 12:32 as reference to all types of men [as is contextually accurate], and therefore the drawing and raising of John 6:44 only applies to elect individuals.

 

[OzSpen]

Logically, faith comes first in your theology.

This is what happens when you impose your will on my theology. You got it wrong again. That is what you want Arminian theology to mean according to RT.

What did I write? 'This is why synergism is a misleading concept. Faith, repentance, regeneration-new birth, justification and conversion happen simultaneously - in my understanding. But that's not how you see it in RT'.

Please quit your misrepresentation of what I wrote and engaging in your eisegesis of what I stated.

 

[OzSpen]

Well when you use those words, of course not. What it conveys is seen in the metaphorical use of helko, to signify "drawing" by inward power, by Divine impulse. Not against our will, but in empathy towards our inner heart.

The focus on the etymology of helko gets our discussion into this kind of bind. John 6:44 makes the teaching clear:

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day (ESV).

This drawing is by the power of God with the specific purpose of moving the sinner's inner being (heart/soul) to move from darkness to light and into God's eternal life. No human being can do this by himself/herself. God's divine power does the drawing. If that does not happen, no salvation will take place.

However, the book of John makes it clear that this is not for a select few. What does John 12:32 state? (the words of Jesus), 'I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself' (ESV). So the drawing of John 6:44 and the drawing of John 12:32 demonstrate that it applies to all human beings, not a select elect.

We know from Rom 1:16 that it is the gospel that is accompanied by God's power 'for salvation to everyone who believes'.

But we know from Matt 23:37 what Jesus' view was:

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! (ESV)

Thus we know that God's moving and drawing of all human beings is NOT irresistible as this verse affirms, 'And you would not'. All human beings have the power to resist God's drawing. This means that it cannot be an irresistible 'dragging' into the kingdom of God.

I'm pleased it is this way. Otherwise, it would look more like another world religion that is particularly dominant and anarchistic at the moment in world history.

Oz