Atheism

[Eyes wide Open]

I am wondering if this whole "I don't care for" phrase is actually a way to say " I do not find them emotionally or sexually gratifying". Which is different from caring about someone.

Its not even that, if we are to discuss anything, then a defined meaning needs to be applied. So in the instance of 'not caring' I define that with a set of understanding's about what 'not caring' entails, and LoAmmi's description didn't fit with my understanding.

 

[oi_antz]

Interesting. Maybe it would be more correct to say that I don't like people, but I do care enough to help.

I would not even make that assumption. I think your interests are simply limited, and I am not even saying that is wrong or unnatural. Like any tree hugger who cares about a tree, doesn't necessarily want to study each tree and find out how many leaves it has. But they would certainly give it water if they could see it was suffering.

 

[Eyes wide Open]

Not from me. I mean it in I don't care about the details of their life or other such things. I don't typically want to know. I have my friends and the people I care about and those people I care about the details, but random people aren't those people. I am highly annoyed when people I don't know try to talk to me or approach me. I just don't like it.

I've said to my kids, I don't care what you do with your lives as long as you are happy. That doesn't mean I don't care, and in fact that happiness that they apply to their lives does entail that they treat others with respect and dignity (and themselves). I think you summed it up with the 'base line' care, which is dignity and respect, and that is what we are referring to.

 

[oi_antz]

Its not even that, if we are to discuss anything, then a defined meaning needs to be applied. So in the instance of 'not caring' I define that with a set of understanding's about what 'not caring' entails, and LoAmmi's description didn't fit with my understanding.

It was bhsmte's statement that I was enquiring to originally, since he said that he didn't care for someone and that meant to me that he must hate them. How can you not want to care about someone unless you wish for them to suffer? It didn't make sense. Now I see his statement had a different meaning:

When I say, "I don't care for someone" it means I do not like their personality, their disposition and I probably don't have much trust for them either.

Ok, this is a cultural expression that I do not use. I have heard it before, but the words themselves give a very different meaning than what is intended. If you said "I don't like someone", that would not have implied that you would not care about their suffering, and I would not have seen anything malicious in that being said. Would that phrase have sufficed for what you said?

Does it mean I hate them, no, not in the least. Hate is a strong emotion, which goes well beyond, simply not liking or caring for a particular person

It is what I am positing, the emotion that causes us to choose not to care about someone when that person needs us to care. What do you think of that?

 

[Zoness]

So to shift gears again I want to address something I hear quite frequently: "I want you to become a Christian because I care about your immortal soul".

Barring the fact that I'm even sure what having a soul even entails, I find this phrase to be a little contrived or patronizing. The average guy on the street telling me that he cares about my soul doesn't do much after he follows it up with 'well your whole life is wrong and you're wrong therefore bad and do this or be condemned'. On one hand I can see that the fear of hell is alive in many of these types of preacher's eyes but on the other hand there has to be a better way to approach this; preferably one that doesn't require talking down to me.

Does anyone get the feeling that when most people share their religion with you its because they feel superior (even if they don't mean to) and converting you is just a notch on your belt? That's the impression I always got with people I knew, but I come from a young crowd that doesn't really know their way entirely.

Still adults do it all the time; "Live this lifestyle because its the best and you're evil!"

Thoughts?

 

[oi_antz]

So to shift gears again I want to address something I hear quite frequently: "I want you to become a Christian because I care about your immortal soul".

Barring the fact that I'm even sure what having a soul even entails, I find this phrase to be a little contrived or patronizing. The average guy on the street telling me that he cares about my soul doesn't do much after he follows it up with 'well your whole life is wrong and you're wrong therefore bad and do this or be condemned'. On one hand I can see that the fear of hell is alive in many of these types of preacher's eyes but on the other hand there has to be a better way to approach this; preferably one that doesn't require talking down to me.

Does anyone get the feeling that when most people share their religion with you its because they feel superior (even if they don't mean to) and converting you is just a notch on your belt? That's the impression I always got with people I knew, but I come from a young crowd that doesn't really know their way entirely.

Still adults do it all the time; "Live this lifestyle because its the best and you're evil!"

Thoughts?

At some point in their life, they have changed something about themselves and feel better for doing it. In doing so, they identify others who have the same burden they have just been freed from and are eager to help them get liberated. The problem with this is with a perceived everlasting destination. Their perception changed when they repented, instead of being certain that they will go to hell, they became certain that they will go to heaven. You can't blame them for wanting to share that peace of mind, but it doesn't necessarily mean they are right about it, it just means that they are convinced that they are right about it. Some people who are like that are actually so dedicated to the cause that they will want to know your reasons for not agreeing, because this is how we learn to be more reasonable. Some people get frustrated and instead of pursuing the truth, give an ultimatum. Others still may find there is some emotional reward from feeling that they are on the right side of the tracks, and go about bragging to get more of the same high. Sometimes people will observe a discontent and simply be wanting to help with that.

 

[gord44]

Does anyone get the feeling that when most people share their religion with you its because they feel superior (even if they don't mean to) and converting you is just a notch on your belt? That's the impression I always got with people I knew, but I come from a young crowd that doesn't really know their way entirely.

Still adults do it all the time; "Live this lifestyle because its the best and you're evil!"

Thoughts?

They shouldn't feel superior. Especially a Christian as their salvation is nothing they did, but the work of God. Feeling superior because of that is silly. As the scriptures say...

8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

That said when someone is convicted by the Holy Spirit it can be exciting and they want to share, but it has to be in the spirit and not in the flesh. A person seeing converting you as a 'notch on the old belt' is working in the flesh and trying to glorify flesh, which only leads to death.

 

[bhsmte]

It was bhsmte's statement that I was enquiring to originally, since he said that he didn't care for someone and that meant to me that he must hate them. How can you not want to care about someone unless you wish for them to suffer? It didn't make sense. Now I see his statement had a different meaning:


Ok, this is a cultural expression that I do not use. I have heard it before, but the words themselves give a very different meaning than what is intended. If you said "I don't like someone", that would not have implied that you would not care about their suffering, and I would not have seen anything malicious in that being said. Would that phrase have sufficed for what you said?

It is what I am positing, the emotion that causes us to choose not to care about someone when that person needs us to care. What do you think of that?

Maybe I am not being clear, as this seems to be more complicated then it needs to be.

When I say; I don't particularly care for someone, it is the same as me saying; I don't particularly like someone. That person has a personality and or behaviors that I don't like and I probably don't have the highest level of respect for that person and I am not going to be; buddy, buddy with them.

Do I hate that person? No, hate is a very strong emotion, which would get to the point of dominating your thinking about a particular person and I have met very few people in my life, that I would say I actually hated. If a person I did not like had a flat tire on the side of the road and they needed help, I would help them. If the person I hated had a flat tire I likely would not help them. If the person I hated dropped in front of me with cardiac arrest, I would help them, because that is how I roll.

Not saying this about you, but in general, I have noticed that many Christians toss around the terms; love, hate and evil at will and tend to overuse the terms in my opinion for effect. To me, love is a strong emotion that comes along once in a while and so is hate. Evil, is likely the most overused term of many Christians, because many have a need to label a person, or something as evil to help justify their beliefs.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

They shouldn't feel superior. Especially a Christian as their salvation is nothing they did, but the work of God. Feeling superior because of that is silly.

People feel superior for all sorts of things that are not attached to any achievement of their own: being American, being Caucasian, being a member of a rich family...

So if people believe that they have been "born again from above" - what does it matter that it wasn't their own achievement? They still believe that they ARE superior by virtue of that grace: reformed creatures, headed for heaven where everybody else is headed for hell, mired in sin and abjection.

 

[Zoness]

It is a good point that certainly, people who feel they have found some truth want to share it because they do care about others or are excited about it but that's what reading the situation, tone and context are all very important; over the years I have experienced the good and bad of this. Jane also makes a good point that people feel proud about things that really aren't their achievements at all. She listed good examples but the big one that comes to mind for me is sports teams. I have no problems with sports and sure enjoy some soccer (real football!) but I'm not committed to the obsession like others because I personally had no intervention in a team winning.

Some people are just so excited about what they have to share that they accidentally trample over others. Some people want to confirm that they're right about everything so they push hard to get everyone to agree. Some people are more passive and do equal parts listening and talking, I tend to respect that the most because nobody has to agree with me but please don't plug your ears shouting "na na na I can't hear you!" when we're discussing big questions in life.

There doesn't seem to be any discernible pattern to this: Evangelical converts are overwhelmingly the most aggressive but its still a mixed bag. I don't mind people sharing their faith, they just can't forget that I am a person too. That seems to be something everyone struggles with when trying to recruit to their team, so to speak. Back in the heyday of my evangelical period I went to many retreats as a leader where I was queried about the emotional status of my charges. The leaders wanted to know who had the most problems, who was the most vulnerable etc. which never did sit right. It was like a software engineering project plan that I'd do at work: "Zoness what's the update on this person? They're 35% converted with 2 roadblocks, sir". It felt manipulated and artificial and people feel devalued when they are just a number.

Just some things to consider.

 

[gord44]

People feel superior for all sorts of things that are not attached to any achievement of their own: being American, being Caucasian, being a member of a rich family...

That's correct. And it's silly and 'in the flesh' to feel superior about any of that stuff.

So if people believe that they have been "born again from above" - what does it matter that it wasn't their own achievement? They still believe that they ARE superior by virtue of that grace: reformed creatures, headed for heaven where everybody else is headed for hell, mired in sin and abjection.

Any feeling of superiority must be burned away. God desires a broken and contrite spirit, (Psalm 51) not an inflated opinion of oneself because of grace. And of course there is the story of the prodigal son. The Lord would rejoice far more to have you come to Him Jane then someone who has been a devoted Christian for 25 years. The Lord would see you as 'superior' at that moment.

 

[LoAmmi]

That's correct. And it's silly and 'in the flesh' to feel superior about any of that stuff.

That statement there contains something I have never understood. Why is flesh always shown as this bad thing while spirit is shown as this good thing in a lot of religions?

 

[gord44]

I have no problems with sports and sure enjoy some soccer (real football!) but I'm not committed to the obsession like others because I personally had no intervention in a team winning.

Blasphemy! There is only one sport that carries the name of football truly....and that's the one where they wear helmets.....

 

[gord44]

That statement there contains something I have never understood. Why is flesh always shown as this bad thing while spirit is shown as this good thing in a lot of religions?

I reckon flesh=me and spirit=God.

 

[LoAmmi]

I reckon flesh=me and spirit=God.

Still it's saying flesh is bad where spirit is good. I guess I just don't agree that all flesh things are bad. I don't agree when people say there's a higher spiritual thing.

 

[gord44]

Still it's saying flesh is bad where spirit is good. I guess I just don't agree that all flesh things are bad. I don't agree when people say there's a higher spiritual thing.

All flesh isn't bad. Point was when one focuses on the flesh they focus on themselves and what they want and how they feel. It gets even more ugly when people take their desires and use their religion to advance them as we see so often.

 

[LoAmmi]

All flesh isn't bad. Point was when one focuses on the flesh they focus on themselves and what they want and how they feel. It gets even more ugly when people take their desires and use their religion to advance them as we see so often.

I think this is along the lines of incompatible religious understandings.

 

[gord44]

Indeed good man. Let's go for a pint and talk about football....real football!

 

[LoAmmi]

Indeed good man. Let's go for a pint and talk about football....real football!

Go Ravens!

 

[gord44]

Go Ravens!

*gets out pitchfork*