- Apr 5, 2007
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I just settled in to the computer again after figuring out that you probably meant sovereign election.
There's no way to know for sure where Calvin was coming from. But I suppose that he may have been just throwing up the old red herring. Or, then again, there may have been some universal salvation teaching going on that occasioned it.
Even as one who leans toward RT I never could see where seeing the atonement as sufficient for all who would come would lead to universalism. I agree that it is a red herring.
More than it's occasionally being used to support sovereign election (which needs no more support than that which is readily available from direct statements in scripture) - I believe that concept is more often used to support limited atonement which does need some of that kind of support IMO.
The idea for limited atonement Reformed types is the oft repeated statement that, if the atonement is for all, then it would be double jeopardy if anyone had to undergo punishment for their sins - since they were already paid for. Therefore if the atonement was for all - all must be saved or God would be unjust.
My particular take on that is that we all (saved folks) were at one time in the situation where our sins had been fully paid for some 2000 years ago and yet we were for many years in some of our cases unjustified vessels of wrath even as the rest. That is until we were finally justified by faith. Who's to say that that exact condition could continue for eternity for the reprobate?
After all everything and everyone in creation will in some mysterious way be in Christ at the end of the age so that He may be all in all. At that time He will hand the whole thing over to the Father from whom it ultimately came anyway. Christ is and will remain the wrath covered lamb and the highly exalted lion for eternity. Both the justice and the grace of God will somehow be on display in the ages to come though the experience of the Word of God in this fallen age. He will accomplish everything the Father sent Him out to do. In this age that is to display the "good and evil thing" and it's consequences once for all.
And by the way -the Word of God will be omni present for eternity in Hell as well as in Heaven and on the new earth and everywhere else. Could He not form the atonement (propitiation or "meeting place" for man and God) for both the justified and the reprobate alike? After all it does say that He is the propitiation for us and the whole world.
Something like that anyway!
I don't want to go beyond what is written.
But the point to me is that there are plenty of ways that I (even with my little human pea brain) can see where this can be done. All that has to be demonstrated is that there are other ways to think of these things to make the red herring obvious for exactly what it is - a red herring.
(Strange thoughts for a strange guy I suppose. But then I do have the mind of Christ.)
Just a couple of thoughts. One, most RT folks will affirm that the cross was sufficient for all. But that does not mean that it was efficient for all. So I'm not sure who said that being sufficient leads to universalism.
Two, I can't really see how any of the elect were vessels of wrath. The same nature? Yes. But out of the same clay He makes different vessels.
Just done thoughts.
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