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A concept that will greatly help in understanding end time prophecy.

Biblewriter

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No, I am not talking about defining who is a "real" Jew or not. I am talking about who is a Jew.

What? :doh: What Jews and Gentiles are - are human beings.

The woman in Revelation 12 is Israel. The time of Jacob's troubles is the time of Israel during the great tribulation. Who is the woman in Revelation 12, James?

I gave you the direct quote from Daniel 9 that Daniel's people is Israel. It's in the text.

But for the mother to be a Jew, she had to have a mother who was also a Jew. And that mother's mother had to also be a Jew. And this goes all the way back to the ancient nation of Judah, which was composed of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin. That is what the word means, and you cannot escape that fact. A Jew is someone who is descended from the ancient nation of Judah. The fact that this descent is only recognized through the mother has zero bearing on that fact. Nor does the fact that someone who has converted to Judaism is also recognized.

The word "Israel" is not used in Revelation 12, and your quote from Daniel 9 is not about the seventy weeks. It is about Daniel's prayer of repentance.

Again, quote just one passage about suffering in the end times that uses the word "Israel."
If you can, you will prove my research to be in error. But if my research is correct, you cannot do this.
 
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Douggg

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Ezra 9

King James Version (KJV)

9 Now when these things were done, the princes came to me, saying, The people of Israel, and the priests, and the Levites, have not separated themselves from the people of the lands, doing according to their abominations, even of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Jebusites, the Ammonites, the Moabites, the Egyptians, and the Amorites.
2 For they have taken of their daughters for themselves, and for their sons: so that the holy seed have mingled themselves with the people of those lands: yea, the hand of the princes and rulers hath been chief in this trespass.
3 And when I heard this thing, I rent my garment and my mantle, and plucked off the hair of my head and of my beard, and sat down astonied.
4 Then were assembled unto me every one that trembled at the words of the God of Israel, because of the transgression of those that had been carried away; and I sat astonied until the evening sacrifice.
5 And at the evening sacrifice I arose up from my heaviness; and having rent my garment and my mantle, I fell upon my knees, and spread out my hands unto the Lord my God,
6 And said, O my God, I am ashamed and blush to lift up my face to thee, my God: for our iniquities are increased over our head, and our trespass is grown up unto the heavens.
7 Since the days of our fathers have we been in a great trespass unto this day; and for our iniquities have we, our kings, and our priests, been delivered into the hand of the kings of the lands, to the sword, to captivity, and to a spoil, and to confusion of face, as it is this day.
8 And now for a little space grace hath been shewed from the Lord our God, to leave us a remnant to escape, and to give us a nail in his holy place, that our God may lighten our eyes, and give us a little reviving in our bondage.
9 For we were bondmen; yet our God hath not forsaken us in our bondage, but hath extended mercy unto us in the sight of the kings of Persia, to give us a reviving, to set up the house of our God, and to repair the desolations thereof, and to give us a wall in Judah and in Jerusalem.
10 And now, O our God, what shall we say after this? for we have forsaken thy commandments,
11 Which thou hast commanded by thy servants the prophets, saying, The land, unto which ye go to possess it, is an unclean land with the filthiness of the people of the lands, with their abominations, which have filled it from one end to another with their uncleanness.
12 Now therefore give not your daughters unto their sons, neither take their daughters unto your sons, nor seek their peace or their wealth for ever: that ye may be strong, and eat the good of the land, and leave it for an inheritance to your children for ever.


James that goes back to the Mt. Sinai covenant and the Children of Israel, not the southern kingdom of the two tribes of Judah and Benjamin.


13 And after all that is come upon us for our evil deeds, and for our great trespass, seeing that thou our God hast punished us less than our iniquities deserve, and hast given us such deliverance as this;
14 Should we again break thy commandments, and join in affinity with the people of these abominations? wouldest not thou be angry with us till thou hadst consumed us, so that there should be no remnant nor escaping?
15 O Lord God of Israel, thou art righteous: for we remain yet escaped, as it is this day: behold, we are before thee in our trespasses: for we cannot stand before thee because of this.




10 Now when Ezra had prayed, and when he had confessed, weeping and casting himself down before the house of God, there assembled unto him out of Israel a very great congregation of men and women and children: for the people wept very sore.
2 And Shechaniah the son of Jehiel, one of the sons of Elam, answered and said unto Ezra, We have trespassed against our God, and have taken strange wives of the people of the land: yet now there is hope in Israel concerning this thing.
3 Now therefore let us make a covenant with our God to put away all the wives, and such as are born of them, according to the counsel of my lord, and of those that tremble at the commandment of our God; and let it be done according to the law.
4 Arise; for this matter belongeth unto thee: we also will be with thee: be of good courage, and do it.
5 Then arose Ezra, and made the chief priests, the Levites, and all Israel, to swear that they should do according to this word. And they sware.
6 Then Ezra rose up from before the house of God, and went into the chamber of Johanan the son of Eliashib: and when he came thither, he did eat no bread, nor drink water: for he mourned because of the transgression of them that had been carried away.
7 And they made proclamation throughout Judah and Jerusalem unto all the children of the captivity, that they should gather themselves together unto Jerusalem;
8 And that whosoever would not come within three days, according to the counsel of the princes and the elders, all his substance should be forfeited, and himself separated from the congregation of those that had been carried away.
9 Then all the men of Judah and Benjamin gathered themselves together unto Jerusalem within three days. It was the ninth month, on the twentieth day of the month; and all the people sat in the street of the house of God, trembling because of this matter, and for the great rain.
10 And Ezra the priest stood up, and said unto them, Ye have transgressed, and have taken strange wives, to increase the trespass of Israel.
11 Now therefore make confession unto the Lord God of your fathers, and do his pleasure: and separate yourselves from the people of the land, and from the strange wives.
12 Then all the congregation answered and said with a loud voice, As thou hast said, so must we do.
13 But the people are many, and it is a time of much rain, and we are not able to stand without, neither is this a work of one day or two: for we are many that have transgressed in this thing.
14 Let now our rulers of all the congregation stand, and let all them which have taken strange wives in our cities come at appointed times, and with them the elders of every city, and the judges thereof, until the fierce wrath of our God for this matter be turned from us.
15 Only Jonathan the son of Asahel and Jahaziah the son of Tikvah were employed about this matter: and Meshullam and Shabbethai the Levite helped them.
16 And the children of the captivity did so. And Ezra the priest, with certain chief of the fathers, after the house of their fathers, and all of them by their names, were separated, and sat down in the first day of the tenth month to examine the matter.
17 And they made an end with all the men that had taken strange wives by the first day of the first month.
18 And among the sons of the priests there were found that had taken strange wives: namely, of the sons of Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and his brethren; Maaseiah, and Eliezer, and Jarib, and Gedaliah.
19 And they gave their hands that they would put away their wives; and being guilty, they offered a ram of the flock for their trespass.
20 And of the sons of Immer; Hanani, and Zebadiah.
21 And of the sons of Harim; Maaseiah, and Elijah, and Shemaiah, and Jehiel, and Uzziah.
22 And of the sons of Pashur; Elioenai, Maaseiah, Ishmael, Nethaneel, Jozabad, and Elasah.
23 Also of the Levites; Jozabad, and Shimei, and Kelaiah, (the same is Kelita,) Pethahiah, Judah, and Eliezer.
24 Of the singers also; Eliashib: and of the porters; Shallum, and Telem, and Uri.
25 Moreover of Israel: of the sons of Parosh; Ramiah, and Jeziah, and Malchiah, and Miamin, and Eleazar, and Malchijah, and Benaiah.
26 And of the sons of Elam; Mattaniah, Zechariah, and Jehiel, and Abdi, and Jeremoth, and Eliah.
27 And of the sons of Zattu; Elioenai, Eliashib, Mattaniah, and Jeremoth, and Zabad, and Aziza.
28 Of the sons also of Bebai; Jehohanan, Hananiah, Zabbai, and Athlai.
29 And of the sons of Bani; Meshullam, Malluch, and Adaiah, Jashub, and Sheal, and Ramoth.
30 And of the sons of Pahathmoab; Adna, and Chelal, Benaiah, Maaseiah, Mattaniah, Bezaleel, and Binnui, and Manasseh.
31 And of the sons of Harim; Eliezer, Ishijah, Malchiah, Shemaiah, Shimeon,
32 Benjamin, Malluch, and Shemariah.
33 Of the sons of Hashum; Mattenai, Mattathah, Zabad, Eliphelet, Jeremai, Manasseh, and Shimei.
34 Of the sons of Bani; Maadai, Amram, and Uel,
35 Benaiah, Bedeiah, Chelluh,
36 Vaniah, Meremoth, Eliashib,
37 Mattaniah, Mattenai, and Jaasau,
38 And Bani, and Binnui, Shimei,
39 And Shelemiah, and Nathan, and Adaiah,
40 Machnadebai, Shashai, Sharai,
41 Azareel, and Shelemiah, Shemariah,
42 Shallum, Amariah, and Joseph.
43 Of the sons of Nebo; Jeiel, Mattithiah, Zabad, Zebina, Jadau, and Joel, Benaiah.
44 All these had taken strange wives: and some of them had wives by whom they had children

James, being a Jew is according to a person's mother being a Jew, but the tribe is of the father's side, because coming out of Egypt, they were told to assemble themselves according to their fathers. So when a person is called Jew, it does not automatically mean that the person is of the tribe of Judah - or the southern two tribes making up Judah.

All twelve tribes are in Israel right now. In Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Who are those twelve stars, James?

As far as Daniel 9, Daniel people are Israel. It is not just in his prayer, but the answer which was to "thy people", which the text plainly says Daniel's people as being Israel.


20 And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the Lord my God for the holy mountain of my God;

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Judah is not the nation over there. It is not called Judah. Nor known to the world as Judah. It is Israel, the unified nation. That's the reality, James. The preterists cannot admit it because their eschatology is flawed. If you cannot admit that the nation over there is Israel, then you have a flawed scenario to your eschatology as well.... which is the problem with your notion that the second beast is the Antichrist.
 
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Douggg

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Again, quote just one passage about suffering in the end times that uses the word "Israel."
If you can, you will prove my research to be in error. But if my research is correct, you cannot do this.
James, your research is in error for a multitude of reasons. Here is a passage which should be plenty sufficient.
It says Israel right in the text.

Jeremiah 30:4-7
And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.
Now look at Daniel 12, which in Daniel 9, Daniel's people are Israel. Daniel himself came out of the southern two tribe nation of Judah, but his people are Israel. Israel over there is the unified country which includes both the formerly divided kingdoms of Israel and of Judah.


12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
 
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Shocker

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Judah is not the nation over there. It is not called Judah. Nor known to the world as Judah. It is Israel, the unified nation. That's the reality, James. The preterists cannot admit it because their eschatology is flawed. If you cannot admit that the nation over there is Israel, then you have a flawed scenario to your eschatology as well.... which is the problem with your notion that the second beast is the Antichrist.

Im of the mind that a remnant, the 12 tribes listed in Rev, are in fact living today.
 
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Douggg

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Im of the mind that a remnant, the 12 tribes listed in Rev, are in fact living today.
All of the twelve tribes are represented over there in Israel, but they are called Jews because their mothers have to be a Jew. Individually most don't know themselves what tribe (which is determined by their fathers side) they are of because it has been lost down through time.

The 144,000 in Revelation are of the twelve tribes.

The concept of "the" messiah is the promised great King of Israel - the unified nation of the twelve tribes - Son of David. The Anti-messiah will for a short time be the illicit King of Israel. Which was impossible to happen in times past because God had not restored Israel back to a unified country until May 15, 1948. So that the prophesy in Daniel 9 of the 70 weeks on Daniel's people Israel can be completed.

Also, it was necessary for Jerusalem also be in the hands of the Jews again (1967) before Jesus can return, at the end of the 70th week, so that they can welcome him saying "blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord."

So everything's there; Israel, Daniel's people, and Jerusalem in preparation to begin the 70th week.
 
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Shocker

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All of the twelve tribes are represented over there in Israel, but they are called Jews because their mothers have to be a Jew. Individually most don't know themselves what tribe (which is determined by their fathers side) they are of because it has been lost down through time.

The 144,000 in Revelation are of the twelve tribes.

The concept of "the" messiah is the promised great King of Israel - the unified nation of the twelve tribes - Son of David. The Anti-messiah will for a short time be the illicit King of Israel. Which was impossible to happen in times past because God had not restored Israel back to a unified country until May 15, 1948. So that the prophesy in Daniel 9 of the 70 weeks on Daniel's people Israel can be completed.

Also, it was necessary for Jerusalem also be in the hands of the Jews again (1967) before Jesus can return, at the end of the 70th week, so that they can welcome him saying "blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord."

So everything's there; Israel, Daniel's people, and Jerusalem in preparation to begin the 70th week.

I agree
 
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AJCServant

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<><> <><

Originally Posted by Old Timer
Isn't it obviously.. Israel cut off from the root.. their house left desolate?

Israel blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in?

Jacob was left alone.. and wrestled with the man until the breaking of the Day..

As we see that Day approaching..
<><> <><

Originally Posted by progmonk

And that doesn't address the textual data, we have three versions of the Olivet discourse which conservatively are dated to AD60, AD66 and AD72 and have varying conformity to the events of the Roman-Judean War, now Luke being the latest written edits Mark's Olivet discourse to bring it in line with the events that have transpired, what does this tell us of the theology of Luke?

__________________
Now accept one who is weak in faith, but not for disputes over opinions. Who are you who judge another&#8217;s servant? Let each man be fully assured in his own mind. For none of us lives to himself, and none dies to himself. For if we live, we live to the Lord. Or if we die, we die to the Lord. If therefore we live or die, we are the Lord&#8217;s. For to this end Christ died, rose, and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.

Member of the Round Table
<><> <><

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Thanks for your insightful posts that have made this thread so informative to so many souls.
[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]I am continually amazed that whenever anyone speaks the sensible truth with love that could set some souls free it is always inciteful to a very very few rare souls.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Someday all souls in our world will understand why this occurs and will then strive to convert-repent in an ever stronger way with that new understanding.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
Revelation 14:8 - - And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication - porneia.


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]
Amen.


Marana tha.

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]
<><> <><
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]. . .

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]We are all in training to be a little more like the good shepherd Jesus every day, one day and one step at a time[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif].


Shalom in Jesus,
A Servant of Jesus Christ
AJCServant
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]John [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]10&15&17 & Revelation 21

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]. . .

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]<><> <><[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]PPPS - Any further "edifying", "wholesome" and helpful comments anyone?

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]<><> <><[/FONT]
 
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Biblewriter

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<><> <><

Originally Posted by Old Timer
Isn't it obviously.. Israel cut off from the root.. their house left desolate?

Israel blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in?

Jacob was left alone.. and wrestled with the man until the breaking of the Day..

As we see that Day approaching..
<><> <><

Originally Posted by progmonk

And that doesn't address the textual data, we have three versions of the Olivet discourse which conservatively are dated to AD60, AD66 and AD72 and have varying conformity to the events of the Roman-Judean War, now Luke being the latest written edits Mark's Olivet discourse to bring it in line with the events that have transpired, what does this tell us of the theology of Luke?

__________________
Now accept one who is weak in faith, but not for disputes over opinions. Who are you who judge another’s servant? Let each man be fully assured in his own mind. For none of us lives to himself, and none dies to himself. For if we live, we live to the Lord. Or if we die, we die to the Lord. If therefore we live or die, we are the Lord’s. For to this end Christ died, rose, and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.

Member of the Round Table
<><> <><

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Thanks for your insightful posts that have made this thread so informative to so many souls.
[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]I am continually amazed that whenever anyone speaks the sensible truth with love that could set some souls free it is always inciteful to a very very few rare souls.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Someday all souls in our world will understand why this occurs and will then strive to convert-repent in an ever stronger way with that new understanding.[/FONT]

Actually, if you check the historical records, you will learn that, ever since the nineteenth century and through the present day, Dispensationalists have always been the most fervent evangelists in the world.
 
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Interplanner

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The reasons for the names chosen in any material has usually been associated with the raising of the follower.

About sin, righteousness and the holy place. None of these are confined by or to tribes. don't buy that.

Daniel's prayer and concern and vision was for his people, Israel. They went to captivity and they went back. The categories of BW are not that useful.

Again, using the Protestant technique in interp that raised us out of the medieval church: where oh where is the apostolic emphasis on any of this? Look at Acts 26: our twelve tribes are trying to see the hope of the Jews fulfilled, which already was in Christ Jesus, the Judean-British-Calethumpian-Mongolian-Chaddian Man from the Trinity. Got it?

Beware of people who don't know or respect how the NT uses the OT. it's a jungle.
 
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Shocker

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Mongolian-Chaddian Man from the Trinity. Got it?

Beware of people who don't know or respect how the NT uses the OT. it's a jungle.

Almost all prophecy dispys teach is nearly fully dependent on the use of the OT, not just the NT.


Its like you come on this website, pick a truth, and then say the exact opposite.

Seriously bro, its rather obvious, get a clue man.
 
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Biblewriter

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Beware of people who don't know or respect how the NT uses the OT. it's a jungle.

Do you refer to people that deny New Testament statements like that "the covenants" (not the covenant) and "the promises" still pertain to Paul's "brethren according to the flesh, whi are Israelites"? (Romans 9:3-4)
 
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Interplanner

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yes because the proof of the lack of failure of God's word is not those things. It is that "not all Israel is Israel."

Keep reading BW, you'll get to the point. Don't stop for 'what you want'.

For ex., "it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded..." 9:9. Then comes illustrations of the exceptions to genealogy and descendancy which were always there.
 
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Biblewriter

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yes because the proof of the lack of failure of God's word is not those things. It is that "not all Israel is Israel."

Keep reading BW, you'll get to the point. Don't stop for 'what you want'.

For ex., "it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded..." 9:9. Then comes illustrations of the exceptions to genealogy and descendancy which were always there.

"not all Israel is Israel" is simply saying that the true Israel is a subset of the natural Israel. It is not even hinting at the Idea that the meanin of the word "Israel" had changed.

This is just a different application of the principle Jesus referred to when he said of Nathanael, "Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no deceit!" (John 1:47) The fact that there was no deceit in Nathanael showed that he was "an Israelite indeed." That is, that those who were Israelites "indeed" were a subset of Israel.
 
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Notrash

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yes because the proof of the lack of failure of God's word is not those things. It is that "not all Israel is Israel."

Keep reading BW, you'll get to the point. Don't stop for 'what you want'.

For ex., "it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded..." 9:9. Then comes illustrations of the exceptions to genealogy and descendancy which were always there.

Do you think he's in denial? Paul explains what he means by saying that the physical descendants are not counted for the seed. Then later affirms that many did believe, and the rest (of that day) partly hardened.

The promise refers to believing Jesus as who he said he was and the seed promisd to mankind through Eve to reverse/cancel the law of sin/death through faith. This is what Abraham - Israel looked for.

Then to top it off, in vs 24, he openly states thst even us of the natiins have been granted mercy through faith in the promise now (then) fulfilled.

"All Israel" is not of or descended from Israel; that is the physical descendants, these are not counted (neccessarily) for the "seed", but those of faith in the object of the promise (Gen 3:15)

He's defining Christans of any peoples as "all Israel".

I was going to put this following questiin in anotger thread, but it relates here to.

If "Judah" only returned to the land, was Christ expressing that he had come in futility or at the wrong time or ???? when he said to the Cananite woman that he had not come but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel???
 
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Douggg

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Denial or intentional selection. I can't trust him on the NT anymore. He seems to do very well on some of his OT topics, but they also don't have any NT comment that would trip him up!
:doh::doh::doh::D:D:D:D :doh::doh::doh: what I need is a larger selection of emoticons. ^_^

Early Sunday morning, Jesus came without a warning;
He came without a warning;
For a poor boy like me.
 
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My three examples now, Doug, are:
1, "little overlap between Lk 21 and the other two parallels"
2, not getting Rom 9-11. He can pull on 3 verses, but doesn't really follow it
3, the inexplicable jump to the distant future from the intro of Mt 24 and //s

In some games, three strikes and you're out
 
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