Paul, the False Apostle: Rebuttal of Point 3

[Phantasman]

Along with point 1 this seeks to claim that there is no mention of Paul's apostleship in the NT, but of course the author of this anonymous essay knows this is not true, hence in Acts 14:14 we have the statement 'the apostles Barnabas and Paul'. I have outlined the evidence that Paul is recognised to have been apostle in my previous post. The author is true that there is no record of Barnabas claiming the title for himself, but this is an argument from silence and really proves nothing other than there is no record of Barnabas claiming for himself the title.

My only response comes from the non Canonical scriptures. Barnabas is a book included in the Codex Sinaiticus, BTW. But The Gospel of Philip, Acts of Peter, and a few other books have Paul traveling with some disciples at points, and they make reference to some of his letters in others instances.

Since these circulated pre Nicene, for many decades, one has to come to their own if they seem truthful or not.

 

[Der Alte]

My what a nasty response. And I thought we might actually have a polite and constructive discussion! Have it your way, I won't bother to talk to you again.

I'm sorry if my response offended you. Am I not permitted to express my firmly held beliefs just as fervently as you do yours? You say to me "So what?""Who cares?" You as much as accused me of misinterpreting some things. You made this insulting comment to me "If a person intends to teach something, they really need to learn the topic before opening their mouth."

 

[ananda]

If, however, the law of Moses bears the same relationship to men today, in terms of its binding status, then it was not fulfilled, and Jesus failed at what He came to do.

Your argument hinges on this one point, so my question is: what was fulfilled?

I contend that "fulfill" means "Messiah came to fulfill and complete the prophecies regarding His first coming".

You seem to be contending that "fulfill" means "He performed all of the Law and thus abrogated the need for His followers to do any part of the Law" ... is this correct?

 

[Der Alte]

This statement is not scripture these are your conclusions from quoted scripture. So am I to conclude that you do not believe in the 10 commandments? That you believe the 10 commandments are not for Gentiles?

I said what I said and I did not say that I did not believe in the 10 commandments or that they are not for gentiles. All of the 10 commandments are reiterated in the NT, as applying to gentiles, more than once, except for the 4th commandment, "You shall keep the Sabbath." Jesus never commanded gentiles to keep the Sabbath, neither did any NT writer. If gentiles were required to keep the Sabbath it should have been written in some if not all of the NT epistles. It is not. Here is what the NT says about those who want to be under the law.

Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Deu 27:26 Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen​

Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Jam 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.​

 

[catlynne333]

I said what I said and I did not say that I did not believe in the 10 commandments or that they are not for gentiles. All of the 10 commandments are reiterated in the NT, as applying to gentiles, more than once, except for the 4th commandment, "You shall keep the Sabbath." Jesus never commanded gentiles to keep the Sabbath, neither did any NT writer. If gentiles were required to keep the Sabbath it should have been written in some if not all of the NT epistles. It is not. Here is what the NT says about those who want to be under the law.

Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Deu 27:26 Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen​

Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Jam 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.​

Thanks for your response. I instead believe you must keep all 10 commandments not omitting any.

 

[ananda]

Thanks for your response. I instead believe you must keep all 10 commandments not omitting any.

"See, the enemy is puffed up; his desires are not upright— but the righteous person will live by his faithfulness" Hab 2:4 (NIV)

 

[TorahMan]

"See, the enemy is puffed up; his desires are not upright— but the righteous person will live by his faithfulness" Hab 2:4 (NIV)

Netzarim, I'm shocked! You said "the righteous person will live by his faithfulness", meaning steadfastness or ongoing good works. You have misquoted Paul.

Paul said "the righteous person will live by his FAITH." It's faith alone, no need for works at all. To make sure we know that Paul's version is true, he added "As it is written...". Of course "it is written", because Paul himself wrote it (Romans 1:17).

Please amend your Tanakh to make it align with Paul. No more misquotes like that. Thank you.

(End of satire)

TorahMan

 

[Arcangl86]

Actually, Paul knew that James (not Peter) was head of the Apostles.

Galatians 2
7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles )
9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.


James and Paul fared well together. Peter and Paul did not. Paul was sent to the Gentiles by James.

You do realize that Cephas is Peter right?

 

[Der Alte]

Thanks for your response. I instead believe you must keep all 10 commandments not omitting any.

I acknowledge your decision. Those who believe, as you do, that they must follow all the OT laws should follow their conscience, as I follow mine. But as I have shown that requirement can't be supported from the NT. שלום

 

[Der Alte]

]"See, the enemy is puffed up; his desires are not upright— but the righteous person will live by his faithfulness" Hab 2:4 (NIV)

Netzarim, I'm shocked! You said "the righteous person will live by his faithfulness", meaning steadfastness or ongoing good works. You have misquoted Paul.

Paul said "the righteous person will live by his FAITH." It's faith alone, no need for works at all. To make sure we know that Paul's version is true, he added "As it is written...". Of course "it is written", because Paul himself wrote it (Romans 1:17).

Please amend your Tanakh to make it align with Paul. No more misquotes like that. Thank you.

(End of satire)

TorahMan

My copy of the NIV reads

NIV Hab 2:4 "See, he is puffed up; his desires are not upright- but the righteous will live by his faith -​

And the 1917 Jewish Publication Society translation reads,

JPS Hab 2:4 Behold, his soul is puffed up, it is not upright in him; but the righteous shall live by his faith.​

Rather than Paul it appears you need to amend your Tanakh to align with the translation by Hebrew speaking Jewish scholars. No satire intended.

 

[TorahMan]

My copy of the NIV reads

NIV Hab 2:4 "See, he is puffed up; his desires are not upright- but the righteous will live by his faith -

I'm puzzled by your quote, because according to biblehub.com/habakkuk/2-4.htm, the NIV says:

"See, the enemy is puffed up; his desires are not upright-- but the righteous person will live by his faithfulness --"

The correct ending is indeed "by his faithfulness", from the Hebrew word "emunah". There's an excellent dissertation in "Jesus' Words Only" by Douglas J del Tondo (2nd edn. P274-276), which is also online on his website at jesuswordsonly.com. For comparison, my NKJV has the correct ending.

But after checking the parallel passages at biblehub.com/habakkuk/2-4.htm, I'm dismayed to see so many Bibles use the corrupted ending, probably to make the Tanakh line up with Paul. Of course it should be the other way around, but that would be embarrassing to Paul.

Unfortunately, the Greek Septuagint, which Paul used, is known to be poorly translated for Hab 2:4 and Gen 15:6. These are the two key passages upon which he based his doctrine of no works. del Tondo covers both passages at length.

 

[2ducklow]

Rotherham) Habakkuk 2:4 Lo! as for the conceited one, crooked is his soul within him,- but, one who is righteous, by his faithfulness, shall live.

yea. Here's an alternate view. NT quotes of OT scripture aren't word for word because they are restating the same idea in different words to get a better picture of what God meant, in other words they are like interpretations of OT scriptures.

 

[IchoozJC]

Rotherham) . so it's not good enough to have faith alone one also needs faith.

QFT

 

[Harry3142]

All of the apostles were rejected by the people around them. That's why all but John died the deaths of martyrs, and John himself was banished.

I and II Timothy wee written by St. Paul following his second arrest at the start of Nero's reign of terror against the Christians. In all probability they were written within weeks of his execution, which dates them to circa 64 AD.

During this time Christians, especially those who were known to have actively worked as evangelists, were quite literally running for their lives. It's entirely probable that St. Peter had already been martyred, as well as St. Luke and St. Mark. If St. Barnabas was still alive, it would have been due to his being in one of the provinces in the Middle East rather than his being in close proximity to Rome (the location of the Asian provinces).

 

[Der Alte]

I'm puzzled by your quote, because according to biblehub.com/habakkuk/2-4.htm, the NIV says:

"See, the enemy is puffed up; his desires are not upright-- but the righteous person will live by his faithfulness --"

The correct ending is indeed "by his faithfulness", from the Hebrew word "emunah". There's an excellent dissertation in "Jesus' Words Only" by Douglas J del Tondo (2nd edn. P274-276), which is also online on his website at jesuswordsonly.com. For comparison, my NKJV has the correct ending.

But after checking the parallel passages at biblehub.com/habakkuk/2-4.htm, I'm dismayed to see so many Bibles use the corrupted ending, probably to make the Tanakh line up with Paul. Of course it should be the other way around, but that would be embarrassing to Paul.

Unfortunately, the Greek Septuagint, which Paul used, is known to be poorly translated for Hab 2:4 and Gen 15:6. These are the two key passages upon which he based his doctrine of no works. del Tondo covers both passages at length.

I note that you ignored my quote from the 1917 Jewish Publication Society translation. The LXX is irrelevant to my argument.

And the 1917 Jewish Publication Society translation reads,

JPS Hab 2:4 Behold, his soul is puffed up, it is not upright in him; but the righteous shall live by his faith.

Rather than Paul it appears you need to amend your Tanakh to align with the translation by Hebrew speaking Jewish scholars. No satire intended.

 

[FredVB]

The truth of the gospel, for our salvation, remains in any case, through our faith in Christ, 1 John 4:15-16, 5:1, 1 Peter 1:20-21.

 

[ananda]

The truth of the gospel, for our salvation, remains in any case, through our faith in Christ, 1 John 4:15-16, 5:1, 1 Peter 1:20-21.

I don't dispute that.

The only dispute which remains, is if faithfulness (aka obedience) does or does not play a part in that salvation.

 

[timewerx]

I don't dispute that.

The only dispute which remains, is if faithfulness (aka obedience) does or does not play a part in that salvation.

Faith comes with evidence....



...If you really have faith in Jesus, you will do what He says, even if it sounds incredibly difficult!


Luke 12:33 for starters.... Don't ask me, I've already done it. Most my tiny salary and life savings goes to my old and poor parents, I still have no house, no family of my own and all my possessions weighs only 50 kgs....

...I'm still too selfish to have kept this tiny laptop I have.


God seemed to have rewarded me by restoring my youth and protects me from all kinds of disease, even from colds, flu, etc. From evil spirits, I don't get sick anymore and I used to be a sickly person.

..


..

 

[TorahMan]

Jesus: "beware of the leaven of the Pharisees" ... Then they understood that He told them to beware of the doctrine of the Pharisees" (Matt 16:6, 12).

Paul: "I am a Pharisee"; "I am a Pharisee" (present tense) (Acts 23:6; Php 3:5)

 

[Der Alte]

Jesus: "beware of the leaven of the Pharisees" ... Then they understood that He told them to beware of the doctrine of the Pharisees" (Matt 16:6, 12).

Paul: "I am a Pharisee"; "I am a Pharisee" (present tense) (Acts 23:6; Php 3:5)

Meaningless objection. Unless you can explain why the church has been wrong for 2000 years +/- and only you, out of all the scholars who have ever read the NT, have the true truth. Unlike you I would truly hate to base my entire theology of two verses. How many 1000s of Bible scholars have studied the NT but miraculously only you have made this incredible discovery. This "truth" has been hidden for 2000 years +/- and only you have discovered it.