Paul, the False Apostle: Rebuttal of Point 3

[ananda]

Again. Do you know WHY Paul was rejected?

It is evident to me that he was rejected for his unique theology.

 

[By Faith Alone]

It is evident to me that he was rejected for his unique theology.

His "unique theology" was that revelation given to Him about a HIGHER glory to the Heaven far above all wiping out (temporarily) any primacy Israel had over anybody.

Paul's revelation PIERCES the temporary heavens under which we live right up to the apex of His glory at the right hand of God to the heaven of Genesis 1:1.. The jealousy of the Jews could not stand the fact they were NOW on an even plane with the nations. They could NOT believe the gentiles were elevated to their own level.

 

[ananda]

His "unique theology" was that revelation given to Him about a HIGHER glory to the Heaven far above all wiping out (temporarily) any primacy Israel had over anybody.

Paul's revelation PIERCES the temporary heavens under which we live right up to the apex of His glory at the right hand of God to the heaven of Genesis 1:1.. The jealousy of the Jews could not stand the fact they were NOW on an even plane with the nations. They could NOT believe the gentiles were elevated to their own level.

My definition of "Israel" = both ethnic Jews and ethnic Gentiles who seek after YHVH, and struggle with Him for His blessing. In such a way, Israel always had and will always have primacy over the "nations" who do not belong to Him.

Believing Gentiles left Egypt with Jews, they were at mount Sinai together, they were both included in the Covenant, and Messiah delivered the same message to both believing Jews and believing Gentiles.

 

[catlynne333]

Yes, but to learn why we have to study Luke's account more closely, paying attention to clues which are easily missed. We also need to put aside our preconceptions about Paul, and simply let the words speak for themselves. (By the way my Bible is the NKJV; I don't know how other Bibles compare. I certainly don't recommend the CJB, which has the most corrupted translations of Paul's epistles I've ever seen.) Let's proceed:

1. After his 'vision', Paul stayed in Damascus for a while, then went to Jerusalem to learn more from the apostles (Acts 9:17-31). I believe this is a true record, which overrides the contradictory account in Galatians 1. (The reason for the differences is a story in itself, which I won't attempt to cover here.
2. Some time later, Paul went to Thessalonica where he taught a Torah-friendly version of the gospel. The visit is recorded in Acts 17:1, and proof that this is what he taught them is seen in his follow-up letter of 1 Thessalonians, where in verse 2:14 he said: "For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus". It's widely agreed that in those days, the churches in Judea taught Messiah + Torah. Therefore Paul was obviously doing the same.

3. After further travels, Paul went to Ephesus and was received into the synagogue (Acts 19:1-8). This is significant, because the Jews would not have received him if he'd been teaching against the Torah.

Now verse 8 tells us that he taught the gospel for 3 months, apparently with good success. But notice this: in verse 9, Luke reveals that Paul did something which caused such a huge uproar, that he was thrown out in disgrace. Paul also spoke of this in 2 Tim 1:15, where he said "all those in Asia have turned away from me". Whatever he did in the synagogue caused such a stir, that the Ephesian Jews were still talking about it a couple of years later (Acts 21:27-29).

----

Now the question is this: What might Paul have done after three months, which caused the uproar? Why did his new Jewish converts suddenly abandon their faith, even condemning it as Luke recorded in Acts 19:9?

I suggest that after three months of preaching, Paul realised that by stretching grace to the limit, he could claim that it's not necessary to do good works or obey the commandments in order to get saved. He probably thought this made his gospel more marketable, but all it did was turn everyone off. Because of the well-known instruction to kill those who taught against the commandments in Deut 13:5, he was probably lucky to escape with his life.

From then on he never taught Torah again (as commanded by James in Acts 15:21), only the faith-alone gospel so familiar to today's church. Then after Paul's atrocious behaviour in the Temple (Acts 21:26-30), followed by the riot he caused amongst the Sanhedrin (Acts 23:7-10), James completely washed his hands of him. Paul was too much of an embarrassment to the church, and obviously had no intention of modifying his behaviour.

Because the Dead Sea Scrolls mention the excommunication of a Paul-type figure, I suggest that this is when it occurred. Following that, his rejection by James and the apostles was complete.

TorahMan

good message

 

[catlynne333]

It is evident to me that he was rejected for his unique theology.

 

[By Faith Alone]

My definition of "Israel" = both ethnic Jews and ethnic Gentiles who seek after YHVH, and struggle with Him for His blessing. In such a way, Israel always had and will always have primacy over the "nations" who do not belong to Him.

Believing Gentiles left Egypt with Jews, they were at mount Sinai together, they were both included in the Covenant, and Messiah delivered the same message to both believing Jews and believing Gentiles.

There was a mixed multitude that came out of Egypt with them and stirred up trouble.
Upon reaching the Jordan 12 spies were sent in to search out the land. 10 spies were believed against God's instructions. That resulted in 40 years wandering in the wilderness and the ones that were over 20? Their carcasses fell in that wilderness. They had the evil heart of unbelief.

If you think for a moment the gentiles were on the same plane as Israel you are no less than ignoring the words of the Lord with the Canaanite woman.

Matt 15:22-27
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.


Lev 23:22 And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not make clean riddance of the corners of thy field when thou reapest, neither shalt thou gather any gleaning of thy harvest: thou shalt leave them unto the poor, and to the stranger: I am the Lord your God.

 

[ananda]

If you think for a moment the gentiles were on the same plane as Israel you are no less than ignoring the words of the Lord with the Canaanite woman.

Matt 15:22-27
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

It is my belief that when Messiah said "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel", He wanted to test her response. He was giving her a choice. She could have claimed to be part of Israel, or one of the "children", but she did not.

Lev 23:22 And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not make clean riddance of the corners of thy field when thou reapest, neither shalt thou gather any gleaning of thy harvest: thou shalt leave them unto the poor, and to the stranger: I am the Lord your God.

"The stranger" is different than "the stranger that sojourns among you" (aka, those Gentiles who have become a part of Israel):

"One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you." Ex 12:49

 

[TorahMan]

"One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you." Ex 12:49

Exactly! And the prophets make it clear that during the age to come, the law will be Torah based. There will also be no distinction between Jew and Gentile, only one faith, one Messiah, one law.

The wise are getting ready, the foolish are dragging their feet. But the last word belongs to YHVH.

Catlynne333: thanks!

TorahMan

 

[TorahMan]

Grace works! Better than law, because the law is fulfulled in Jesus Christ. This is why Paul preached it, and we recieve as we agree.

Jesus releases us from sin, whereas Paul releases us from the law. And as Paul said, if the law is dissolved, nothing we do can be classed as sin. A person can claim their salvation and keep living like a heathen.

Neat but disgusting.

 

[Der Alte]

Jesus releases us from sin, whereas Paul releases us from the law. And as Paul said, if the law is dissolved, nothing we do can be classed as sin. A person can claim their salvation and keep living like a heathen.
Neat but disgusting.

Sure is disgusting. That is a blatant misrepresentation of Paul's teaching.

 

[TorahMan]

Sure is disgusting. That is a blatant misrepresentation of Paul's teaching.

Not according to Colossians 2:16: 'Eat who you like, choose your own Sabbath, choose your own holy days.' And that's exactly what I see the house of Paul all doing.

It's not as if anyone is pushing them to do these things, as Paul gave them a free choice. But they choose the way of disobedience every time. Not a good look.

But notice this: In Col 2:17, Paul said that the law is a shadow of THINGS TO COME. In other words, when the Messiah comes, the law will be in place. So why is the church dragging her feet? Why isn't she getting herself ready? Is she so far gone that she won't even obey her master Paul?

 

[Der Alte]

Not according to Colossians 2:16: 'Eat who you like, choose your own Sabbath, choose your own holy days.' And that's exactly what I see the house of Paul all doing.

Jesus abrogated the dietary laws. And Jesus never once commanded any of His disciples to keep the Sabbath. The Sabbath was not given to the whole world it was given specifically to the children of Israel, as an everlasting covenant.

NIV Mar 7:19 For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.") [also NASB, NET, ASV, ISV, CEV]

1Ch 28:5 And of all my sons, (for the LORD hath given me many sons,) he hath chosen Solomon my son to sit upon the throne of the kingdom of the LORD [ יהוה ] over Israel.

2Ch 13:8 And now ye think to withstand the kingdom of the LORD [ יהוה] in the hand of the sons of David; and ye be a great multitude, and there are with you golden calves, which Jeroboam made you for gods.

Lev 24:8 Every sabbath he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, being taken from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant.

Exo 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.​

It's not as if anyone is pushing them to do these things, as Paul gave them a free choice. But they choose the way of disobedience every time. Not a good look.

It is not disobedience to refrain from doing that which was never commanded. Gentiles have never been commanded to observe the Sabbath. I can almost guarantee that if you are not doing so right now, at some time in the past you have worn garments of mixed fabric.

But notice this: In Col 2:17, Paul said that the law is a shadow of THINGS TO COME. In other words, when the Messiah comes, the law will be in place. So why is the church dragging her feet? Why isn't she getting herself ready? Is she so far gone that she won't even obey her master Paul?

Where does Paul say "when the Messiah comes, the law will be in place.?" Judaizers have always made a big deal about gentiles following the "law" when they themselves do not obey all 613 commandments. And they have all kinds of excuses "We can't do this because the temple has been destroyed." etc. People like that need to work on getting the log out of their own eye instead of worrying about the speck in someone else's eye.

 

[catlynne333]

It is not disobedience to refrain from doing that which was never commanded. Gentiles have never been commanded to observe the Sabbath. I can almost guarantee that if you are not doing so right now, at some time in the past you have worn garments of mixed fabric.

I need clarification. Keeping the Sabbath is one of the 10 commandments. So according to this statement your saying that Gentiles are not supposed to keep the 10 commandments?

 

[drstevej]

As Circumcision was the sign of the Abrahamic Covenant, the Sabbath is the sign of the Mosaic Covenant.

 

[Der Alte]

I need clarification. Keeping the Sabbath is one of the 10 commandments. So according to this statement your saying that Gentiles are not supposed to keep the 10 commandments?

Here is my post again, I didn't really say anything I just quoted scripture. See e.g. Lev 24:8 and Ex 31:16. If you disagree with scripture, I'm not the one you have a problem with.

Jesus abrogated the dietary laws. And Jesus never once commanded any of His disciples to keep the Sabbath. The Sabbath was not given to the whole world it was given specifically to the children of Israel, as an everlasting covenant.

NIV Mar 7:19 For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.") [also NASB, NET, ASV, ISV, CEV]

1Ch 28:5 And of all my sons, (for the LORD hath given me many sons,) he hath chosen Solomon my son to sit upon the throne of the kingdom of the LORD [יהוה] over Israel.

2Ch 13:8 And now ye think to withstand the kingdom of the LORD [יהוה] in the hand of the sons of David; and ye be a great multitude, and there are with you golden calves, which Jeroboam made you for gods.

Lev 24:8 Every sabbath he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, being taken from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant.

Exo 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.​

It is not disobedience to refrain from doing that which was never commanded. Gentiles have never been commanded to observe the Sabbath. I can almost guarantee that if you are not doing so right now, at some time in the past you have worn garments of mixed fabric.

Where does Paul say "when the Messiah comes, the law will be in place.?" Judaizers have always made a big deal about gentiles following the "law" when they themselves do not obey all 613 commandments. And they have all kinds of excuses "We can't do this because the temple has been destroyed." etc. People like that need to work on getting the log out of their own eye instead of worrying about the speck in someone else's eye.

 

[TorahMan]

Jesus abrogated the dietary laws.

No He didn't. The fact that pastors misinterpret some things does not make them true.

And Jesus never once commanded any of His disciples to keep the Sabbath.

He didn't have to; they just did it! No nitpicking or quoting false teachers to find an excuse to do something different.

The Sabbath was not given to the whole world it was given specifically to the children of Israel, as an everlasting covenant.

And what makes you think you have no Israelite blood, as almost all Westerners do? Where do you think the people of the Northern Kingdom went, after being dispersed by the Assyrians, if not Europe? What about the huge number of intermarriages between Jews and Gentiles over the centuries ever since?

The commandment to honour our parents doesn't stop at the first generation, but goes all the way back to our ancestors who stood at the foot of Sinai and said "All that the LORD has spoken we will do" (Ex 19:8).

NIV Mar 7:19 For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.") [also NASB, NET, ASV, ISV, CEV]

The part in brackets adds nothing of value, because if something is not clean, it's not food by definition. Anyway in most Bibles it's written in italics, meaning that Jesus never said it. It was added much later by the scribes.

Exo 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

As I said, as someone with Israelite blood this applies as much to you as (say) a Sephardic Jew.

I can almost guarantee that if you are not doing so right now, at some time in the past you have worn garments of mixed fabric.

So what? I've repented and trust in the Blood of Yeshua. And to allay your concerns, I've checked my wardrobe and everything is ok.

Where does Paul say "when the Messiah comes, the law will be in place.?"

Who cares what Paul said? It's as plain as day from the true prophets like Isaiah, who prophesied about the age to come. For examples please see Isa 2:3 and Isa 66:23.

Judaizers have always made a big deal about gentiles following the "law"

A Judaizer tries to impose the Jewish oral law on people. It is the very antithesis of Torah, and is where the thousands of nit-picky commandments come from. The oral law adds nothing to righteousness.

Yeshua often denounced the oral law, which by His time had turned into a horror. James and the apostles (all Torah-observant) rightly rejected the oral law.

As for the supposed 613 commandments, this is minor compared to the 1000+ in the New Testament.

And they have all kinds of excuses "We can't do this because the temple has been destroyed."

Well that's one of the main reasons the temple was destroyed! If it had remained, believers worldwide would have been required by the law to visit the temple at regular intervals. For most people this would have been extremely expensive. Also there was no further need for animal sacrifices, because Yeshua made the last great sacrifice.

The temple's destruction simplified the law enormously. What's left is very easy to observe, by anyone anywhere in the world. It grieves me greatly that pastors still teach the 'horror of the law', when it's nothing of the kind. If a person intends to teach something, they really need to learn the topic before opening their mouth. Otherwise as Yeshua said, "If the blind lead the blind, both fall into the ditch" (Luke 6:39).

TorahMan

 

[Der Alte]

No He didn't. The fact that pastors misinterpret some things does not make them true.

Nonsense! I quote scripture you give me your assumptions/presuppositions. Nothing in Mar 7:19 is misinterpreted!

He didn't have to; they just did it! No nitpicking or quoting false teachers to find an excuse to do something different.

More nonsense! How could gentile Christians, outside Israel, who did not have the Torah "just do" something they had no knowledge of?

And what makes you think you have no Israelite blood, as almost all Westerners do? Where do you think the people of the Northern Kingdom went, after being dispersed by the Assyrians, if not Europe? What about the huge number of intermarriages between Jews and Gentiles over the centuries ever since?

Prove it!

The commandment to honour our parents doesn't stop at the first generation, but goes all the way back to our ancestors who stood at the foot of Sinai and said "All that the LORD has spoken we will do" (Ex 19:8).

Prove it from scripture.

The part in brackets adds nothing of value, because if something is not clean, it's not food by definition. Anyway in most Bibles it's written in italics, meaning that Jesus never said it. It was added much later by the scribes.

Wrong! It is not in italics! It is in the orginal Greek with no indication that it was not inspired! Try reading it again. "(In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")" If this only referred to "clean" foods. Why would Jesus make clean foods clean?

As I said, as someone with Israelite blood this applies as much to you as (say) a Sephardic Jew.

Thank you for this unsupported assumption. Can you prove it? If all mankind is considered Jews why have Jews not recognized this for the past 2000-3000 years? Why is it only in 2014 that some few MJs make this claim?

So what? I've repented and trust in the Blood of Yeshua. And to allay your concerns, I've checked my wardrobe and everything is ok.

If you are wearing socks or underwear you are wearing mixed fabrics. If you wear anything that is permanent press it is mixed fabric.

Who cares what Paul said? It's as plain as day from the true prophets like

This was addressed to another person. If you don't like the topic don't read and respond. Please keep your anti-Paul prejudices to yourself.

Isaiah, who prophesied about the age to come. For examples please see Isa 2:3 and Isa 66:23.

Quote the scripture and how it applies to anything I said.

A Judaizer tries to impose the Jewish oral law on people. It is the very antithesis of Torah, and is where the thousands of nit-picky commandments come from. The oral law adds nothing to righteousness.

Paul addressed judaizers in his epistles they were trying to impose circumscision on gentiles. Circumcision is not oral law!

Yeshua often denounced the oral law, which by His time had turned into a horror. James and the apostles (all Torah-observant) rightly rejected the oral law.

Irrelevant. As I have shown I was not referring to oral law.

As for the supposed 613 commandments, this is minor compared to the 1000+ in the New Testament.

Nonsense! There are not 1000+ commandments in the NT. And you are the one trying to impose the 613 OT commandments on gentiles.

Well that's one of the main reasons the temple was destroyed! If it had remained, believers worldwide would have been required by the law to visit the temple at regular intervals. For most people this would have been extremely expensive. Also there was no further need for animal sacrifices, because Yeshua made the last great sacrifice.

Just as I said made up excuses for your own disobeying the law you are trying to impose on gentiles.

The temple's destruction simplified the law enormously. What's left is very easy to observe, by anyone anywhere in the world. It grieves me greatly that pastors still teach the 'horror of the law', when it's nothing of the kind. If a person intends to teach something, they really need to learn the topic before opening their mouth. Otherwise as Yeshua said, "If the blind lead the blind, both fall into the ditch" (Luke 6:39).

TorahMan

I have been a Christian longer than you have been alive and I have never heard of a pastor teaching any so-called "horror of the law." Perhaps this discussion would go better if you would stick to subjects you can actually prove. The blind leading the blind? As I said some people should pay more attention to the log in their own eye and less to the speck in someone else's eye. Better yet stick to the topic and don't try to insult people by throwing random scriptures at them.

 

[TorahMan]

My what a nasty response. And I thought we might actually have a polite and constructive discussion! Have it your way, I won't bother to talk to you again.

 

[catlynne333]

It is not disobedience to refrain from doing that which was never commanded. Gentiles have never been commanded to observe the Sabbath. I can almost guarantee that if you are not doing so right now, at some time in the past you have worn garments of mixed fabric.

This statement is not scripture these are your conclusions from quoted scripture. So am I to conclude that you do not believe in the 10 commandments? That you believe the 10 commandments are not for Gentiles?

 

[BelCantoBaptist]

This statement is not scripture these are your conclusions from quoted scripture. So am I to conclude that you do not believe in the 10 commandments? That you believe the 10 commandments are not for Gentiles?

This is what's called a strawman. Nowhere did my brother DerAlter say anything like that.

The Jewish ceremonial/religious laws are not for Gentiles. Please find me anywhere in the OT where God judged the Caananites for wearing mixed fabrics and not shaving their beards the way God told the Israelite's to do so that they were distinct from the pagan nations around them. You can't. God judged the Caananites for their child sacrifices, etc.

Christ revered the law, loved it, obeyed it, and brought it to fruition. He fulfilled the law’s prophetic utterances regarding Himself (Luke 24:44). Christ fulfilled the demands of the Mosaic law, which called for perfect obedience under threat of a “curse” (see Galatians 3:10, 13). In this sense, the law’s divine design will ever have an abiding effect. It will always accomplish the purpose for which it was given.

If, however, the law of Moses bears the same relationship to men today, in terms of its binding status, then it was not fulfilled, and Jesus failed at what He came to do. On the other hand, if the Lord did accomplish His goal, then the law was fulfilled, and it is not a binding legal institution today. Further, if the law of Moses was not fulfilled by Christ—and thus remains as a binding legal system for today—then it is not just partially binding. Rather, it is a totally compelling system. Jesus plainly said that not one “jot or tittle” (representative of the smallest markings of the Hebrew script) would pass away until all was fulfilled. Consequently, nothing of the law was to fail until it had completely accomplished its purpose. Jesus fulfilled the law. Jesus fulfilled all of the law. We cannot say that Jesus fulfilled the sacrificial system, but did not fulfill the other aspects of the law. Jesus either fulfilled all of the law, or none of it. What Jesus' death means for the sacrificial system, it also means for the other aspects of the law.

​

The key to understanding this issue is knowing that the Old Testament law was given to the nation of Israel, not to Christians. Some of the laws were to reveal to the Israelites how to obey and please God (the Ten Commandments, for example). Some of the laws were to show the Israelites how to worship God and atone for sin (the sacrificial system). Some of the laws were intended to make the Israelites distinct from other nations (the food and clothing rules). None of the Old Testament law is binding on Christians today. When Jesus died on the cross, He put an end to the Old Testament law (Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:23–25; Ephesians 2:15).

In place of the Old Testament law, we are under the law of Christ (Galatians 6:2), which is to “love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind…and to love your neighbor as yourself” (Matthew 22:37-39). If we obey those two commands, we will be fulfilling all that Christ requires of us: “All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments” (Matthew 22:40). Now, this does not mean the Old Testament law is irrelevant today. Many of the commands in the Old Testament law fall into the categories of “loving God” and “loving your neighbor.” The Old Testament law can be a good guidepost for knowing how to love God and knowing what goes into loving your neighbor. At the same time, to say that the Old Testament law applies to Christians today is incorrect. The Old Testament law is a unit (James 2:10). Either all of it applies, or none of it applies. If Christ fulfilled some of it, such as the sacrificial system, He fulfilled all of it.

“This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome” (1 John 5:3). The Ten Commandments were essentially a summary of the entire Old Testament law. Nine of the Ten Commandments are clearly repeated in the New Testament (all except the command to observe the Sabbath day). Obviously, if we are loving God, we will not be worshipping false gods or bowing down before idols. If we are loving our neighbors, we will not be murdering them, lying to them, committing adultery against them, or coveting what belongs to them. The purpose of the Old Testament law is to convict people of our inability to keep the law and point us to our need for Jesus Christ as Savior (Romans 7:7-9; Galatians 3:24). The Old Testament law was never intended by God to be the universal law for all people for all of time. We are to love God and love our neighbors. If we obey those two commands faithfully, we will be upholding all that God requires of us.

​