Which Law are we not under?

[Sophrosyne]

Personally I don't see how that addresses my question. What in the New Testament do we need the old to explain? How does the old Testament apply to the Christian?

To me it is like having the latest operating system on your computer and being told you have to downgrade to be "up to date to an older operating system. Like having windows 8 and being told you have to "upgrade" to windows 95. You have a (renewed) new system and now find it impossible to find drivers for your hardware that work with windows 95 because support for it has been abandoned (nearly 2000) years when the new covenant was installed.

 

[SAAN]

To me it is like having the latest operating system on your computer and being told you have to downgrade to be "up to date to an older operating system. Like having windows 8 and being told you have to "upgrade" to windows 95. You have a (renewed) new system and now find it impossible to find drivers for your hardware that work with windows 95 because support for it has been abandoned (nearly 2000) years when the new covenant was installed.

Nice try, but if you didnt understand Windows 98, you would not understand Windows 2000.
If you didnt understand 2000, you will not understand Windows XP.
If you dont understand Windows XP, you will not understand Windows 7.

So since on OS roots are based off the previous, you need to have a basic understanding of how one worked in order to understand how the new one works.


So in a spiritual sense, if you dont understand the OT, you will get many things wrong in the NT as well. Jesus taught from the OT, so im sure its pretty relevant still.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Nice try, but if you didnt understand Windows 98, you would not understand Windows 2000.
If you didnt understand 2000, you will not understand Windows XP.
If you dont understand Windows XP, you will not understand Windows 7.

So since on OS roots are based off the previous, you need to have a basic understanding of how one worked in order to understand how the new one works.


So in a spiritual sense, if you dont understand the OT, you will get many things wrong in the NT as well. Jesus taught from the OT, so im sure its pretty relevant still.

Nonsense, you tell me someone who understands windows 8 but has never seen windows 95 can operate it easily.... I should have compared the Mosaic Law to the days of DOS like DOS 3.3, 4.1, 5.0 because in the Mosaic Law you had to do everything by hand there wasn't any idea of "Grace" or something resembling a GUI to be an interface to make things easier. You could consider Jesus transplanted as a GUI for windows and the cross more of a intersection between the NT versions with the Windows 9x series Pre Cross where they needed to be able to run the Mosaic Law OS (DOS) alongside with having the GUI (Jesus) too. Some people want to go back to running windows 9X telling us it is superior but in reality they want to run DOS programs under the guise of them being windows programs that won't for the most part run well under windows NT native systems and up.

 

[SAAN]

Personally I don't see how that addresses my question. What in the New Testament do we need the old to explain? How does the old Testament apply to the Christian?

How does the old Testament apply to the Christian?


That question is what is wrong with Christianity today, 66% of the bible is irrelevant and doesnt apply to them. The OT applies very much to Christians because EVERY SINGLE command in the New Testament is carried over from the OT and expanded even more. Jesus taught from the OT, Paul and all the disciples taught from it as well also. The only thing that doesnt apply to Christians, even though there was no such thing as "Christians" during and after the life of Jesus, is the animal sacrifices or any other sacrificial/ceremonial part of the law back then.

Everything in the NT is a fulfillment of the OT, so the OT will always be relevant to Christians. The books of Psalms and proverbs alone are worth the read.

 

[Sophrosyne]

How does the old Testament apply to the Christian?


That question is what is wrong with Christianity today, 66% of the bible is irrelevant and doesnt apply to them. The OT applies very much to Christians because EVERY SINGLE command in the New Testament is carried over from the OT and expanded even more. Jesus taught from the OT, Paul and all the disciples taught from it as well also. The only thing that doesnt apply to Christians, even though there was no such thing as "Christians" during and after the life of Jesus, is the animal sacrifices or any other sacrificial/ceremonial part of the law back then.

Everything in the NT is a fulfillment of the OT, so the OT will always be relevant to Christians. The books of Psalms and proverbs alone are worth the read.

I would say that as far as commandments you are right most of the OT doesn't apply to Christians at all because a lot of it was dealing with a specific group of people who were a "peculiar" group set aside by their Laws and Traditions by God himself such that one couldn't just up and decide to be or not be one at a whim it was deadly serious business to be part of Israel throughout the history of the OT. I wouldn't say the OT was irrelevant overall... but the Laws were not relevant for us to keep we can learn from history but we aren't bound to it just as we learn from the Roman civilization we aren't Romans because of it all. One could equate that Israel was part of Rome just as you are trying to equate Christians are part of Israel when logically Israel REJECTED being "Romans" yet they were under their laws at the time in reality since Israel was under Roman Laws Jesus was "keeping" Romans Laws therefore we must ALSO keep Romans Laws too now..... and be considered Romans too.

 

[NorrinRadd]

Personally I don't see how that addresses my question. What in the New Testament do we need the old to explain? How does the old Testament apply to the Christian?

It's very useful for seeing how much the New and better Covenant is an improvement over the Old and obsolete.

Or IOW, it's good for showing what we are redeemed FROM.

 

[Sophrosyne]

It's very useful for seeing how much the New and better Covenant is an improvement over the Old and obsolete.

Or IOW, it's good for showing what we are redeemed FROM.

Paul said the Law was a curse that Jesus redeemed us from, makes you wonder if you should follow the advice of people who wish us to be again cursed by it.

 

[SAAN]

Paul said the Law was a curse that Jesus redeemed us from, makes you wonder if you should follow the advice of people who wish us to be again cursed by it.

How can this law be a curse when just a few verses earlier, Paul said it was just, holy and perfect.

We you broke the law you were under the a curse, now when you break it you are under grace to repent, but if you dont repent you are still under the curse of it.

 

[NorrinRadd]

How can this law be a curse when just a few verses earlier, Paul said it was just, holy and perfect.

I'm not sure where you see that.

Sophrosyne, meanwhile, is speaking about Gal. 3. All who are of the works of law are subject to a curse, v. 10, probably referring to Deut. 27:26. The life of faith is incompatible with, and supplants, the life of law, vv. 11-12. Then Paul uses a bit of a play on words and the technique of the part representing the whole; the Law had come to have the effect of being a curse, and we are redeemed from that curse, i.e. living under the Law, because Christ absorbed it and it died with Him, v. 13.

 

[Sophrosyne]

How can this law be a curse when just a few verses earlier, Paul said it was just, holy and perfect.

We you broke the law you were under the a curse, now when you break it you are under grace to repent, but if you dont repent you are still under the curse of it.

You reject what the Bible says?

Deuteronomy 27:26

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

26 ‘Cursed is he who does not confirm the words of this law by doing them.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’

Deuteronomy 29:21
Then the Lord will single him out for adversity from all the tribes of Israel, according to all the curses of the covenant which are written in this book of the law.
Joshua 8:34 Then afterward he read all the words of the law, the blessing and the curse, according to all that is written in the book of the law.
Nehemiah 10:29 are joining with their kinsmen, their nobles, and are taking on themselves a curse and an oath to walk in God’s law, which was given through Moses, God’s servant, and to keep and to observe all the commandments of God our Lord, and His ordinances and His statutes;
Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”
Galatians 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”—

According to you Christ didn't need to redeem us because the Law isn't a curse... I say the Law IS a curse.

 

[from scratch]

To me it is like having the latest operating system on your computer and being told you have to downgrade to be "up to date to an older operating system. Like having windows 8 and being told you have to "upgrade" to windows 95. You have a (renewed) new system and now find it impossible to find drivers for your hardware that work with windows 95 because support for it has been abandoned (nearly 2000) years when the new covenant was installed.

Very good analogy.

 

[from scratch]

Nonsense, you tell me someone who understands windows 8 but has never seen windows 95 can operate it easily.... I should have compared the Mosaic Law to the days of DOS like DOS 3.3, 4.1, 5.0 because in the Mosaic Law you had to do everything by hand there wasn't any idea of "Grace" or something resembling a GUI to be an interface to make things easier. You could consider Jesus transplanted as a GUI for windows and the cross more of a intersection between the NT versions with the Windows 9x series Pre Cross where they needed to be able to run the Mosaic Law OS (DOS) alongside with having the GUI (Jesus) too. Some people want to go back to running windows 9X telling us it is superior but in reality they want to run DOS programs under the guise of them being windows programs that won't for the most part run well under windows NT native systems and up.

Excellent!!!

 

[SAAN]

You reject what the Bible says?

Deuteronomy 27:26

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

26 ‘Cursed is he who does not confirm the words of this law by doing them.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’

Deuteronomy 29:21
Then the Lord will single him out for adversity from all the tribes of Israel, according to all the curses of the covenant which are written in this book of the law.
Joshua 8:34 Then afterward he read all the words of the law, the blessing and the curse, according to all that is written in the book of the law.
Nehemiah 10:29 are joining with their kinsmen, their nobles, and are taking on themselves a curse and an oath to walk in God’s law, which was given through Moses, God’s servant, and to keep and to observe all the commandments of God our Lord, and His ordinances and His statutes;
Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”
Galatians 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”—

According to you Christ didn't need to redeem us because the Law isn't a curse... I say the Law IS a curse.

Doing keyword searches dont really help when you start reading scriptures in context.

There was a curse for breaking Gods law, because the penalty of sin is death. If you were not breaking the law, you were no under the curse. You come under a curse in the NT when you try to get your salvation from observing the law and have no faith.

Psalm 119:1
119 Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the Lord.



Paul says the same thing.



Romans 7:12
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Doing keyword searches dont really help when you start reading scriptures in context.

There was a curse for breaking Gods law, because the penalty of sin is death. If you were not breaking the law, you were no under the curse. You come under a curse in the NT when you try to get your salvation from observing the law and have no faith.

The Bible says nobody keeps the Law therefore ALL break it and ALL are under the curse according to the Law. I see no scripture in the NT that says anything about gaining salvation from observing the Law faith or no faith.

Psalm 119:1
119 Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the Lord.



Paul says the same thing.



Romans 7:12
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

The Law is so holy it shows we can never keep it and we are cursed compared to its holiness. The reason the New Covenant did away with the Law is because we could never be considered righteous according to it our righteousness comes from the only one who DID keep the Law. Our faith in his deeds save us, the Law only curses those who rely upon it for salvation.

 

[SAAN]

The Bible says nobody keeps the Law therefore ALL break it and ALL are under the curse according to the Law. I see no scripture in the NT that says anything about gaining salvation from observing the Law faith or no faith.

The Law is so holy it shows we can never keep it and we are cursed compared to its holiness. The reason the New Covenant did away with the Law is because we could never be considered righteous according to it our righteousness comes from the only one who DID keep the Law. Our faith in his deeds save us, the Law only curses those who rely upon it for salvation.

I agree its our faith that saves us, but the notion the New Covenant did away with the ALL of law is 100% false. Jesus said he came to fulfil the law not abolish it, fulfill and abolish arent the same thing, so he pretty much came to show how it was to be lived in love. The only laws that the New Covenant abolished was the ceremonial law, involving animals sacrifices and burnt offerings. Everything else still stands because when we keep those commands it shows out commitment to God and obedience to him.

Not worshipping other Gods does not curse you.
Not making graven images does not curse you.
Not taking Gods name in vain does not curse you.
Keeping the Sabbath or a day of rest does not curse you.
Not coveting does not curse you.
Not disrespecting your parents does not curse you.
Not killing does not curse you.
Not stealing does not curse you.
Not bearing false witness does not curse you.
Not coveting does not curse you.
Not committing adultery does not curse you.
Not committing sexual immorality does not curse you.
To those that try to keep the dietary laws does not curse you..
To those that keep Gods 7 Sabbath Holy days does not curse you.

 

[Sophrosyne]

I agree its our faith that saves us, but the notion the New Covenant did away with the ALL of law is 100% false. Jesus said he came to fulfil the law not abolish it, fulfill and abolish arent the same thing, so he pretty much came to show how it was to be lived in love. The only laws that the New Covenant abolished was the ceremonial law, involving animals sacrifices and burnt offerings. Everything else still stands because when we keep those commands it shows out commitment to God and obedience to him.

Not worshipping other Gods does not curse you.
Not making graven images does not curse you.
Not taking Gods name in vain does not curse you.
Keeping the Sabbath or a day of rest does not curse you.
Not coveting does not curse you.
Not disrespecting your parents does not curse you.
Not killing does not curse you.
Not stealing does not curse you.
Not bearing false witness does not curse you.
Not coveting does not curse you.
Not committing adultery does not curse you.
Not committing sexual immorality does not curse you.
To those that try to keep the dietary laws does not curse you..
To those that keep Gods 7 Sabbath Holy days does not curse you.

If you are basing your salvation on keeping laws then you are cursed it is that simple. If you tell me I am not saved or will lose salvation by not keeping the Sabbath then you are trying to curse me with the law because when I break the Sabbath I am doomed. The Law is an all or nothing it cannot be dissasembled to show righteousness at all either you perfectly keep every bit of it or you are cursed. The problem with promoting the Law is that those who do so aren't willing to stop at voluntarily keeping what parts you see fit and happy to admit people who don't keep the Law are NOT forfeiting salvation. The deceit here is... it's ok to keep the Law, and if it is ok to keep the Law then you should keep it, and if you should keep it then not keeping it is wrong, then if not keeping it is wrong then you are probably going to lose salvation for not keeping it..... I don't buy this sneak attack on Christians go peddle it elsewhere.

 

[from scratch]

Doing keyword searches dont really help when you start reading scriptures in context.

There was a curse for breaking Gods law, because the penalty of sin is death. If you were not breaking the law, you were no under the curse. You come under a curse in the NT when you try to get your salvation from observing the law and have no faith.

Psalm 119:1
119 Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the Lord.



Paul says the same thing.



Romans 7:12
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Your commentary and Bible quotes don't seem to fit each other.

 

[LarryP2]

If you are basing your salvation on keeping laws then you are cursed it is that simple. If you tell me I am not saved or will lose salvation by not keeping the Sabbath then you are trying to curse me with the law because when I break the Sabbath I am doomed. The Law is an all or nothing it cannot be dissasembled to show righteousness at all either you perfectly keep every bit of it or you are cursed. The problem with promoting the Law is that those who do so aren't willing to stop at voluntarily keeping what parts you see fit and happy to admit people who don't keep the Law are NOT forfeiting salvation. The deceit here is... it's ok to keep the Law, and if it is ok to keep the Law then you should keep it, and if you should keep it then not keeping it is wrong, then if not keeping it is wrong then you are probably going to lose salvation for not keeping it..... I don't buy this sneak attack on Christians go peddle it elsewhere.

Adventists THINK they are keeping the Sabbath, and constantly brag and gloat about their preening supposed moral superiority over Sunday worshiping Christians. But they hilariously "break the Sabbath" millions and millions of times every Sabbath. They aren't even CLOSE to keeping the Sabbath. They aren't even in the remote vicinity of Keeping the Sabbath. They are miles and miles away. Adventists deceitfully flatter themselves by believing in their delusion they are keeping the Sabbath, or any other part of the law. They are the laughingstock of Christianity.

Nobody except for a few Rabbis and dedicated Hasidim keep the Sabbath today. Adventists THINK they are keeping it, but they are not. Not even close.

 

[from scratch]

The Bible says nobody keeps the Law therefore ALL break it and ALL are under the curse according to the Law. I see no scripture in the NT that says anything about gaining salvation from observing the Law faith or no faith.

The Law is so holy it shows we can never keep it and we are cursed compared to its holiness. The reason the New Covenant did away with the Law is because we could never be considered righteous according to it our righteousness comes from the only one who DID keep the Law. Our faith in his deeds save us, the Law only curses those who rely upon it for salvation.

It also paves the way for the whole world to possess salvation. Also there isn't any provision for salvation under the law. The law regulates the actions of the flesh and that's all. All the promises about observing the law are made to the flesh and not the soul. The law is about controlling the soul from outside influences while grace is about controlling the flesh from the inside (the soul). The Christian's nature (behavior of the soul) has been changed (born again).

 

[from scratch]

I agree its our faith that saves us, but the notion the New Covenant did away with the ALL of law is 100% false. Jesus said he came to fulfil the law not abolish it, fulfill and abolish arent the same thing, so he pretty much came to show how it was to be lived in love. The only laws that the New Covenant abolished was the ceremonial law, involving animals sacrifices and burnt offerings. Everything else still stands because when we keep those commands it shows out commitment to God and obedience to him.

Not worshipping other Gods does not curse you.
Not making graven images does not curse you.
Not taking Gods name in vain does not curse you.
Keeping the Sabbath or a day of rest does not curse you.
Not coveting does not curse you.
Not disrespecting your parents does not curse you.
Not killing does not curse you.
Not stealing does not curse you.
Not bearing false witness does not curse you.
Not coveting does not curse you.
Not committing adultery does not curse you.
Not committing sexual immorality does not curse you.
To those that try to keep the dietary laws does not curse you..
To those that keep Gods 7 Sabbath Holy days does not curse you.

So how do you get that Jesus came to abolish (do away with) part of the law? I just don't read that in Mat 5.