Which Law are we not under?

[SAAN]

Paul talks about 7 different laws, so which are we not under?

The Law of God: Romans 3:31, 7:22, 8:7
Romans 3:31
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
Romans 7:22
22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
Romans 8:7
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.


The Law of Sin: Romans 7:23-25
Romans 7:23-25
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.


The Law of Sin and Death: Romans 8:2
Romans 8:2
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.


The Law of The Spirit of Life: Romans 8:2
Romans 8:2
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.


The Law of Faith Romans: 3:27
Romans 3:27
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.

The Law of Righteousness: Romans 9:31
Romans 9:31
31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.[a]

The Law of Christ: 1 Corinthians 9:21, Gal 6:2
1 Corinthians 9:21
21 to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God,[a] but under law toward Christ[b]), that I might win those who are without law;
Galatians 6:2
2 Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.

 

[pyramid33]

Paul said to be under the law of not getting circumcised. Oops.

 

[pyramid33]

Is it easier to say you are free or to command many rules against rules?

 

[from scratch]

Paul talks about 7 different laws, so which are we not under?

The Law of God: Romans 3:31, 7:22, 8:7
Romans 3:31
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
Romans 7:22
22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
Romans 8:7
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.


The Law of Sin: Romans 7:23-25
Romans 7:23-25
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.


The Law of Sin and Death: Romans 8:2
Romans 8:2
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.


The Law of The Spirit of Life: Romans 8:2
Romans 8:2
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.


The Law of Faith Romans: 3:27
Romans 3:27
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.

The Law of Righteousness: Romans 9:31
Romans 9:31
31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.[a]

The Law of Christ: 1 Corinthians 9:21, Gal 6:2
1 Corinthians 9:21
21 to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God,[a] but under law toward Christ[b]), that I might win those who are without law;
Galatians 6:2
2 Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.

Are you proposing conflict?

 

[Frogster]

Are you proposing conflict?

Simple, go by the context.

First point law, nomos, can mean principle, Rom 3:27, Rom 7:21 in the NASB, law cam mean the OT in general, he called Is the law in 1 Cor 14, about tongues, Jesus called the psalms the law in John 10, and 15, the people called the OT the law in John 12. THE law is also the Mosaic law.

But Rom 6:14 is clear, it was the 10, sin has dominion under THE law.The 10.

Not under law in Gal 5:18, same point it was the 10.

Not under law in 1 Cor 9, seems to be about food stuff, things like that.

So you mentioned the UNDER word, so I used some verses that say under.

 

[SAAN]

Are you proposing conflict?

Nope, just pointing out it is very obvious the law they were under was the law of sin and death. Jesus died for our sins and lifted the curse of the law, so now we are under grace to repent from those same sins. When you dont repent you remain under the curse of the law.

Jesus blood covered our sins, so it is his blood we need for repentance and not the blood of animals. As a believer who is saved, you are supposed to want to obey Gods commands as a testimony of your faith. The bible is qiuiet clear about this.


Jesus never said, now that you believe in me, you can now disregard everything my father taught and the same commands I was expected to obey.

The key Paul is trying to say is, that if you try to get your salvation form the law rather than faith in Jesus, you have fallen from grace and have put your self in bondage to try to get salvation from something that no one could accomplish. He is not saying you can sin at free will now. Sin is defined as breaking Gods commands. Even we we cant keep them perfectly, we should at least try. This is where grace covers us for falling short of Gods standards.

SO we are no longer under the law of sin and death.

 

[LarryP2]

SO we are no longer under the law of sin and death.

And if you are a Gentile, you never were under the Mosaic Law:

"Inasmuch as the Jews had their own distinct jurisdiction, it would have been unwise to reveal their laws to the Gentiles, for such knowledge might have operated against the Jews in their opponents' courts. Hence the Talmud prohibited the teaching to a Gentile of the Torah, "the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob" (Deut. xxxiii. 4). R. Johanan says of one so teaching: "Such a person deserves death" (an idiom used to express indignation). "It is like placing an obstacle before the blind" (Sanh. 59a; Ḥag. 13a).
.....
Resh Laḳish (d. 278) said, "A Gentile observing the Sabbath deserves death" (Sanh. 58b). This refers to a Gentile who accepted the seven laws of the Noachidæ, inasmuch as "the Sabbath is a sign between God and Israel alone," and it was probably directed against the Christian Jews, who disregarded the Mosaic laws and yet at that time kept up the observance of the Jewish Sabbath.
GENTILE - JewishEncyclopedia.com

The Apostles well-understood the fact that the Mosaic Law and Gentiles simply did not mix. Gentiles were never under the Mosaic Law, but under the Noahide Laws:

"The children of Noah were commanded with seven commandments: [to establish] laws, and [to prohibit] cursing God, idolatry, illicit sexuality, bloodshed, robbery, and eating flesh from a living animal (Sanhedrin 56a; cf. Tosefta Avodah Zarah 8:4 and Genesis Rabbah 34:8)."

The Noahide Laws - My Jewish Learning

This is how Judaism and the Apostles ALWAYS interpreted the "First Commandment:"

"First Commandment (Exodus 20:2): I am the Lord Your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage."
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/hol...ading_and_Haftarah/The_Ten_Commandments.shtml

Unless you are among the select group that the First Commandment painstakingly applies to, then the Mosaic Law is irrelevant, and you fall under the Noahide Laws. Have you ever heard an Adventist talking about the First Commandment like this?

You can pretend that you can disregard all of this, but St. Paul emphatically did not. EVERY time he speaks of the Law, especially when discussing in terms of how it relates to the Gentiles, this is precisely what he was thinking. Paul was trained in the Mosaic Law by one of the leading experts. He never pretended that he could ignore these authorities when discussing the law that would be followed by Gentile Christians.

Romans 6:14 (NET)
6:14 For sin will have no mastery over you, because you are not under law but under grace.

What part of "you are not under the law" aren't you comprehending?

Law and Grace do not mix. Choose one or choose the other.

Choose wisely.

 

[SAAN]

There is no such thing as Gentile Christians back then. The tern Christian was a derogatory term to put people down that followed Jesus, not a badge of honor that Jesus said, if you believe in me you are a Christian.

There is no separate paths of salvation. Galatians said there is no Jew or Gentile as we are all one in Christ, so we have one law to follow. Christians dont get to pick and choose what they want to follow. The NT has 1050 commands and every single of one them are doable and dont involve any sacrifices are are expected of us to follow as believer in God and Jesus.

Mixing Law and Grace is when you think your faith saves you and if you dont keep every single command you will loose your salvation. At that point you arent relying on grace but rather yourself. Grace doesnt abolished Gods commands. We are still expected not to kill, steal, kill, covet, not worship other Gods, refrain from sexual immorality etc.

 

[LarryP2]

There is no such thing as Gentile Christians back then. The tern Christian was a derogatory term to put people down that followed Jesus, not a badge of honor that Jesus said, if you believe in me you are a Christian.

I would be interested how you interpret this statement out of Acts 15:


"The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the believers very glad. 4 When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them.

5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe.

That sounds suspiciously like Gentiles were being discussed, NOT Jews, and the word "Christian" was never used.

There is no separate paths of salvation. Galatians said there is no Jew or Gentile as we are all one in Christ, so we have one law to follow. Christians dont get to pick and choose what they want to follow. The NT has 1050 commands and every single of one them are doable and dont involve any sacrifices are are expected of us to follow as believer in God and Jesus.

Christians are NEVER commanded to keep the Sabbath in all of those 1050 Commands that you speak of. Sabbath Keeping has been denounced as a non-Christian heresy since the First Century.

Grace doesnt abolished Gods commands. We are still expected not to kill, steal, kill, covet, not worship other Gods, refrain from sexual immorality etc.

And all of those things are covered by the Noahide laws, which have been in existence LONG before Moses received the Mosaic Law at Sinai. Plainly, the AD 50 Council of Jerusalem as referred to in Acts 15 merely reaffirmed what the Law had been for Gentiles LONG before Moses. And the Pharisees were indeed demanding that Gentiles keep the Mosaic Law.

They lost.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Plainly, the AD 50 Council of Jerusalem as referred to in Acts 15 merely reaffirmed what the Law had been for Gentiles LONG before Moses. And the Pharisees were indeed demanding that Gentiles keep the Mosaic Law.

They lost.

I still wonder if people even really READ Acts 15 carefully to realize that James, Peter, and Paul all agreed to NOT allow the Mosaic Law to be required of Christians (Gentile converts). Peter and James themselves could have easily overruled Paul 2 to 1 and told him that they needed to keep the 10 commandments or the Sabbath or anything that is remotely compelling to consider equivocable to keeping the Law. They specifically chose 4 things to tell them to do of which I believe were more to keep the peace in one instance (meat) than really needed but never the less we don't see dietary laws or sabbath laws or 10 commandments or any mention that would give the Law entry upon believers in that council. It completely destroys any chance the Law would have upon Christianity entirely by edict once and for all.

 

[SAAN]

I still wonder if people even really READ Acts 15 carefully to realize that James, Peter, and Paul all agreed to NOT allow the Mosaic Law to be required of Christians (Gentile converts). Peter and James themselves could have easily overruled Paul 2 to 1 and told him that they needed to keep the 10 commandments or the Sabbath or anything that is remotely compelling to consider equivocable to keeping the Law. They specifically chose 4 things to tell them to do of which I believe were more to keep the peace in one instance (meat) than really needed but never the less we don't see dietary laws or sabbath laws or 10 commandments or any mention that would give the Law entry upon believers in that council. It completely destroys any chance the Law would have upon Christianity entirely by edict once and for all.

Read Acts 15:21 to get the proper context. Those 4 things were a start of what they were to do and Acts 15:21 says they will learn the rest each week when they go to the synagogs on the Sabbath. It is abosultely silly to think al gentiles have to do is follow those 4 suggestions and can ignore commands from God not to lie, steal, covet, etc.

Acts 15:21http://biblehub.com/acts/15-22.htm
For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."

 

[LarryP2]

Read Acts 15:21 to get the proper context. Those 4 things were a start of what they were to do and Acts 15:21 says they will learn the rest each week when they go to the synagogs on the Sabbath. It is abosultely silly to think al gentiles have to do is follow those 4 suggestions and can ignore commands from God not to lie, steal, covet, etc.

Acts 15:21http://biblehub.com/acts/15-22.htm
For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."

Gentiles were not allowed to read or study the Torah. Please revisit the quote concerning the Death Penalty for Gentiles who read the Torah. You can think it is as "silly" as you want, but it was the Law that was in effect throughout the New Testament. Any Jew that taught a Gentile the Torah is subject to death as well. Here is what would have been on the minds of the Apostles as they were deciding the rules for Gentile Christians during the Council of Jerusalem that is described in Acts 15:

"Inasmuch as the Jews had their own distinct jurisdiction, it would have been unwise to reveal their laws to the Gentiles, for such knowledge might have operated against the Jews in their opponents' courts. Hence the Talmud prohibited the teaching to a Gentile of the Torah, "the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob" (Deut. xxxiii. 4). R. Johanan says of one so teaching: "Such a person deserves death" (an idiom used to express indignation). "It is like placing an obstacle before the blind" (Sanh. 59a; Ḥag. 13a).

Can you please supply me a verse from the New Testament that indicates that Gentile Christians were not subject to the above law?

 

[Frogster]

Nope, just pointing out it is very obvious the law they were under was the law of sin and death. Jesus died for our sins and lifted the curse of the law, so now we are under grace to repent from those same sins. When you dont repent you remain under the curse of the law.

Jesus blood covered our sins, so it is his blood we need for repentance and not the blood of animals. As a believer who is saved, you are supposed to want to obey Gods commands as a testimony of your faith. The bible is qiuiet clear about this.


Jesus never said, now that you believe in me, you can now disregard everything my father taught and the same commands I was expected to obey.

The key Paul is trying to say is, that if you try to get your salvation form the law rather than faith in Jesus, you have fallen from grace and have put your self in bondage to try to get salvation from something that no one could accomplish. He is not saying you can sin at free will now. Sin is defined as breaking Gods commands. Even we we cant keep them perfectly, we should at least try. This is where grace covers us for falling short of Gods standards.

SO we are no longer under the law of sin and death.

but not under law in Rom 16;4, was about the principle, and dynamic power of the law. Sin has dominion under law, it says so.

same in Gal 5:18, not under law, and those passages 5:16-18, were about the sin law conjunction principle too.

there we have it, a clear definition, of not under law.

 

[Frogster]

duplicate

 

[Frogster]

Read Acts 15:21 to get the proper context. Those 4 things were a start of what they were to do and Acts 15:21 says they will learn the rest each week when they go to the synagogs on the Sabbath. It is abosultely silly to think al gentiles have to do is follow those 4 suggestions and can ignore commands from God not to lie, steal, covet, etc.

Acts 15:21http://biblehub.com/acts/15-22.htm
For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."

Acts 15:21.wow!

Yep..I can see it now, the Christian disciples going into the synagogues, "saying praise the Lord, the council said we do not have to be circumcised, we do not have to keep the Torah, and Peter said the Torah was a yoke that he nor the fathers could bear, and James said not to burden us with the Torah! Guess what synagogue leaders, the gospel is about faith and grace said Peter, Jew and Greek saved the same way, God shows no partiality, like Paul said in Rom 10:12."

My oh my, I am sure they would be welcomed in the synagogues..yep..

That verse was not saying the church was to keep Sabbath at all, in fact 15:21 was part of a larger narrative, that shows the opposite.


Lets look at it with a proper text analysis, and interpretation, and reading the OT, from a NT vantage point.

Why would Paul want the believers in the synagogues, around the very environment he went to fight off in Jerusalem? They were glad to not have the Torah put on them, that which Peter called a yoke, and James said not to burden the church with the law.

They went to churches after the coucil meeting, not synagogues if you read 15, you will see that. They were glad about the decision, no circumcision, which meant no conversion to Judaism, and the law. The synagogue leaders, for the most part hated Paul, and whipped paul, the Christians would not be tolerated in the synagogues, praising the messiah, that the Jews rejected, so your interp of Acts 15:21, does not at all fit the narrative.

Like Paul would want his converts getting Judaized in the synagogues? I do not think so!

 

[pyramid33]

Nope, just pointing out it is very obvious the law they were under was the law of sin and death. Jesus died for our sins and lifted the curse of the law, so now we are under grace to repent from those same sins. When you dont repent you remain under the curse of the law.

Very insightful.

 

[pyramid33]

I still wonder if people even really READ Acts 15 carefully to realize that James, Peter, and Paul all agreed to NOT allow the Mosaic Law to be required of Christians (Gentile converts). Peter and James themselves could have easily overruled Paul 2 to 1 and told him that they needed to keep the 10 commandments or the Sabbath or anything that is remotely compelling to consider equivocable to keeping the Law. They specifically chose 4 things to tell them to do of which I believe were more to keep the peace in one instance (meat) than really needed but never the less we don't see dietary laws or sabbath laws or 10 commandments or any mention that would give the Law entry upon believers in that council. It completely destroys any chance the Law would have upon Christianity entirely by edict once and for all.

I hardly doubt that Peter or James condemned those that worship God on sabbath.

 

[annier]

Read Acts 15:21 to get the proper context. Those 4 things were a start of what they were to do and Acts 15:21 says they will learn the rest each week when they go to the synagogs on the Sabbath. It is abosultely silly to think al gentiles have to do is follow those 4 suggestions and can ignore commands from God not to lie, steal, covet, etc.

Acts 15:21
For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."

SAAN, the apostles were very aware the temple was going to be destroyed, they knew the law could not be kept by anyone.
The problem with people which teach keeping the law, are not themselves keeping the law. BUT there are many today which keep RABBINIC RITUAL LAW ESTABLISHED AFTER THE DESTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE.

 

[pyramid33]

Is all this temple talk about the eternal temple?

 

[annier]

Read Acts 15:21 to get the proper context. Those 4 things were a start of what they were to do and Acts 15:21 says they will learn the rest each week when they go to the synagogs on the Sabbath. It is abosultely silly to think al gentiles have to do is follow those 4 suggestions and can ignore commands from God not to lie, steal, covet, etc.

First of all, no Christian thinks you can lie and steal etc.
Acts 15:21

For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."

Second of all, just how many commands of the law do you think were being kept by going to synagogue? There were no religious services to attend at synagogue in the time of Christ. Nor was anyone keeping the law by going there. Perhaps the only thing to learn at synagogue, was that the temple and the priesthood were necessary things to keep the law.