We are not magically saved simply by believing.

[RBPerry]

So what do you think about public prayer vs private prayer in the context of what Jesus said about it?

I think public prayer if good if the heart and motive is right. When my wife and I go out to eat, we pray over our meal, it is not to seem righteous, it is to thank the Lord for our meal an provisions for it, and for it to nourish our body.
To me my private prayer time is the most precious and most import time I spend each day. Jesus looks at the heart and he knows our motives. I have no right to judge another persons prayer habits, that is between them and the Lord.

 

[Bramwell]

You spoke of greed, America is the classic example of it, and believers are as guilty of it as the world is. Just look at the tithes, I think it averages 2% in most churches today, or maybe not even that high. I see people throw five bucks in the offering plate and think their being generous, then go out after church and spend fifty bucks going out to eat with the family. However if I become critical of them then I’m just throwing stones that I’m not qualified to throw.

Hi RBPerry,

I agree that tithes (or the lack thereof) is a good example of the greed of Americans... even in the church world. Personally, I believe tithes are an Old Testament tradition, and that God expects even more from us today. Still, if we want to consider tithing the minimum material requirement for us as believers, I find it amazing that most church goers don't even meet that standard.

The Bible says our heart is where our money is. And when professing believers can't even give God 10% of their material wealth, it's hard to argue that their heart is with Him.

 

[Bramwell]

You spoke of greed, America is the classic example of it, and believers are as guilty of it as the world is. Just look at the tithes, I think it averages 2% in most churches today, or maybe not even that high. I see people throw five bucks in the offering plate and think their being generous, then go out after church and spend fifty bucks going out to eat with the family. However if I become critical of them then I’m just throwing stones that I’m not qualified to throw.

Hi RBPerry,

I agree that tithes (or the lack thereof) is a good example of the greed of Americans... even in the church world. Personally, I believe tithes are an Old Testament tradition, and that God expects even more from us today. Still, if we want to consider tithing the minimum material requirement for us as believers, I find it amazing that most church goers don't even meet that standard.

The Bible says our heart is where our money is. And when professing believers can't even give God 10% of their material wealth, it's hard to argue that their heart is with Him.

 

[Gunny]

Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Matthew 7:20
NIV

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

Galatians 5:22-23

 

[Alithis]

Some seek a christianity that feels safe with a set of rules to keep. Thus they can self examine daily and focus on themselves. Measuring themselves by themselves, thinking it wise. Hoping they are not as other sinners who are not walking correctly.
Others focus completely on Lord Jesus. Listen for the leading of the Holy Spirit.
Yielding for service daily.
Choice is ours, which path to follow?
Does each path seem safe?

As you know dear sister.i always value the latter path. For our most gracious and holy redeemer said "my sheep hear my voice andd i know them and they follow me" .
That ,to me displays it is not about a set of rules or laws.but it is about obedience.
God desires of us truth in the inner parts.only truth,absolute exposing of our entire being to the telling light of the holy spirit,that he may take from us that which is wicked and hiding in our hearts(for the heart of man deceitful above all things and desperatly wicked.who can know it)(but God does not look at the outer appearance.....) and replace it with his righteousness.
This way of listening obedience is a path most narrow that does not allow us the wandering from side to side following the imaginations of our own minds...and few there be that find it.
For far to many are intent upon their own will.
Hence the greatest need for repentance lays within us who claim to walk in him,yet do not do as he tells us each to do.

 

[pyramid33]

If you believe in God, you will be saved.

 

[Alithis]

If you believe in God, you will be saved.

If you believe you will repent...

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

If you believe you will repent...

the demons believe, and tremble. (they don't and can't repent, they know certain judgment awaits them)

multitudes may believe, and never repent. they love money, or sex, or power,
or the approval of others more than they love Yhwh the Giver of Life.
(remember the religious leaders Jesus directly spoke to and said are condemned because of this)

 

[Jeo7]

People, we need to believe in God, we need to have faith in God in order for our salvation to take its roots ! But it takes WORKS to be saved. Jesus died for all of us ! He suffered greatly for our purpose !! But that cross he carried it to the end, for us to do the same with him. We must crucify the flesh and all of its impurities unto the cross. IT'S A SACRIFICE PEOPLE, it's the death of the flesh we must WORK on daily and follow the footsteps of Christ.
Salvation through only Faith won't get you no where. It's a WALK we must do. Jesus The Christ shed his blood to SHOW us that walk. 1 Peter 2:21

"Carry your cross and follow me". - Jesus The Christ

 

[Omena]

John chapter 3 is an interesting chapter. Christianity's favourite verse in found in that chapter (verse 16), but it's interesting how the people who love pointing to that verse rarely go further than that. The following five verses (up to verse 21) pretty much focus on the importance of our deeds (or works) and how those deeds not only determine what it means to "believe" in Jesus, but they also determine our salvation. I'll post the verse below and bold the ones I'm referring to.

JN 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

JN 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

JN 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

JN 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

JN 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

JN 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

 

[Bramwell]

I think public prayer if good if the heart and motive is right. When my wife and I go out to eat, we pray over our meal, it is not to seem righteous, it is to thank the Lord for our meal an provisions for it, and for it to nourish our body.
To me my private prayer time is the most precious and most import time I spend each day. Jesus looks at the heart and he knows our motives. I have no right to judge another persons prayer habits, that is between them and the Lord.

Jesus condemned public prayer. Judging from His words on the subject, one would wonder if it's possible to have the right motives when praying publicly. (Please read Matthew 6:5-7 for reference.)

I think there's nothing wrong with thanking the Lord for the food He provides. I wonder how you feel about doing this silently, however, so others don't know you are praying? Then God alone sees your prayer of thanksgiving, and He alone will reward you.

Further, I don't see a problem with evaluating prayer habits. Jesus did it clearly, in telling us not to pray publicly as the hypocrites. I think we just need to judge fairly, based on what Jesus taught. That's why I feel it's better to pray privately. It's more sincere that way.

 

[Receiver]

....we are saved by FOLLOWING THE FOOTSTEPS OF OUR MESSIAH. Imitating his life, his way, his Truth. Jesus The Christ is the EXAMPLE ...

Amen.
Jesus began by demanding to be baptised, then he prayed and was anointed by the Holy Spirit, whereupon a voice was heard.

We follow this by being baptised, showing no faith in "the flesh" because we believe there is a new Life to receive.
We also pray and when we receive that same Spirit a voice is heard as we speak in tongues.

This is what the apostles did and what they taught.
Anything else is "another Jesus", "another gospel".

 

[pescador]

Jesus condemned public prayer. Judging from His words on the subject, one would wonder if it's possible to have the right motives when praying publicly. (Please read Matthew 6:5-7 for reference.)

I think there's nothing wrong with thanking the Lord for the food He provides. I wonder how you feel about doing this silently, however, so others don't know you are praying? Then God alone sees your prayer of thanksgiving, and He alone will reward you.

Further, I don't see a problem with evaluating prayer habits. Jesus did it clearly, in telling us not to pray publicly as the hypocrites. I think we just need to judge fairly, based on what Jesus taught. That's why I feel it's better to pray privately. It's more sincere that way.

It all comes down to an attitude of the heart. If one prays in public to show off, hoping to gain admiration of themselves, then that's the only reward that they will receive. If you pray in public because you want to communicate with God then there is nothing wrong with that. In fact, it's a good witness to those around you that you have a relationship with God that they may not have.

 

[BryanW92]

Jesus condemned public prayer.

Jesus did it clearly, in telling us not to pray publicly as the hypocrites.

A hypocrite was literally an actor on the Greek stage. They wore masks to show the crowd their emotion. Jesus is talking about the grand, showy person who prays to be seen by others. Jesus never condemned public prayer. He just knew that there was a time for corporate (i.e. public) prayer and a time for private prayer.

Now, he was talking about the public prayers that one sees on the internet when someone posts about needing prayer and someone else feels the need to write out their prayer in a reply.

 

[Omena]

A hypocrite was literally an actor on the Greek stage. They wore masks to show the crowd their emotion. Jesus is talking about the grand, showy person who prays to be seen by others. Jesus never condemned public prayer. He just knew that there was a time for corporate (i.e. public) prayer and a time for private prayer.

Now, he was talking about the public prayers that one sees on the internet when someone posts about needing prayer and someone else feels the need to write out their prayer in a reply.

I might tend to agree with that interpretation, except that Jesus also said "you, when you pray, go to your room and pray in secret". So he wasn't just speaking out against proud showy prayers, he was also literally telling us to pray by ourselves in secret.

 

[dragongunner]

It all comes down to an attitude of the heart. If one prays in public to show off, hoping to gain admiration of themselves, then that's the only reward that they will receive. If you pray in public because you want to communicate with God then there is nothing wrong with that. In fact, it's a good witness to those around you that you have a relationship with God that they may not have.

AMEN!


Where did Jesus pray....not ever in public....right?

Q: #204. How many times did Jesus pray in the Bible?

A: The Bible tells us in (1 Thess 5:17) to "pray without ceasing." While I don't believe this literally means to never stop praying, I would say that Jesus probably came closer to never stopping than any person who has ever lived on this planet. He was continually in a prayer mode. He is shown to pray: alone (Mt 14:23)(Mk 1:35) (Lk 9:18)(Lk 22:39-41), in public (Jn 11:41-42) (Jn 12:27-30), before meals (Mt 26:26)(Mk 8:6)(Lk 24:30)(Jn 6:11), before important decisions (Lk 6:12-13), before healing (Mk 7:34-35), after healing (Lk 5:16), to do the Father's will (Mt 26:36-44), among other things. He also taught on the importance of prayer (Mt 21:22) (Mk 11:24-26)(Mt 7:7-11)(Lk 11:9-13)(Jn 14:13-14)(Jn 15:7,16)(Jn 16:23-24) (Mt 5:44) (Lk 6:27-28)(Mt 6:5-15: including the Lord's Prayer)(Lk 11:2-4) (Mt 18:19-20). If you take all of the places that show Jesus praying, you will have a PERFECT outline of how to pray (check out Jn 17).

Below are all of the verses I could find in the Gospels that show Jesus praying.

(Lk 3:21-22) At His Baptism.

(Mk 1:35-36) In the morning before heading to Galilee.

(Lk 5:15) After healing people.

(Lk 6:12-13) Praying all night before choosing His 12 disciples.

(Mt 11:25-26) While speaking to the Jewish leaders.

(Jn 6:11) Giving thanks to the Father before feeding 5000. (Also see: Mt 14:19, Mk 6:41, Lk 9:16)

(Mt 14:22) Before walking on water. (Also see: Mk 6:46, Jn 6:15)

(Mk 7:31-37) While healing a deaf and mute man.

(Mt 15:36) Giving thanks to the Father before feeding 4000. (Also see: Mk 8:6-7)

(Lk 9:18) Before Peter called Jesus "the Christ."

(Lk 9:28-29) At the Transfiguration.

(Lk 10:21) At the return of the seventy.

(Lk 11:1) Before teaching His disciples the Lord's Prayer.

(Jn 11:41-42) Before raising Lazarus from the dead.

(Mt 19:13-15) Laying hands on and praying for little children. (Also see: Mk 10:13-16, Lk 18:15-17)

(Jn 12:27-28) Asking the Father to glorify His name.

(Mt 26:26) At the Lord's Supper. (Also see: Mk 14:22-23, Lk 22:19)

(Lk 22:31-32) Prayed for Peter's faith when Satan asked to "sift" him.

(Jn 17:1-26) Prayed for Himself, His disciples, and all believers just before heading to Gethsemane.

(Mt 26:36-46) In Gethsemane before His betrayal. (He prayed 3 separate prayers.) (Also see: Lk 22:39-46, Mk 14:32-42)

(Lk 23:34) Right after being nailed to the cross, Jesus prayed, "Father forgive them; for they know not what they do."

(Mt 27:46) While dying on the cross, Jesus cried out, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Also see: Mk 15:34)

(Lk 23:46) In His dying breath, Jesus prayed, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit."

(Lk 24:30) Prayed a blessing on the bread before He ate with others after His resurrection.

(Lk 24:50-53) He blessed the disciples before His Ascension.

There are also verses outside of the Gospels that show us that even though Jesus is now in Heaven, He is still making intercession on our behalf (Rom 8:34)(Heb 7:25) (Heb 9:24)(1 Jn 2:1).

 

[BryanW92]

I might tend to agree with that interpretation, except that Jesus also said "you, when you pray, go to your room and pray in secret". So he wasn't just speaking out against proud showy prayers, he was also literally telling us to pray by ourselves in secret.

And yet, Jesus prayed in public. Was he lying? Is he the hypocrite?

Of course not. He was continuing what he told the hypocrites about loud, showy prayer. He was saying that you should pray alone because personal prayer is best. But, he was not saying that we should never pray corporately, or lead others in prayer. He was only speaking of people who say prayers that should be kept private in a public venue to show others how pious they are.

 

[tremble]

I think public prayer if good if the heart and motive is right. When my wife and I go out to eat, we pray over our meal, it is not to seem righteous, it is to thank the Lord for our meal an provisions for it, and for it to nourish our body.
To me my private prayer time is the most precious and most import time I spend each day. Jesus looks at the heart and he knows our motives. I have no right to judge another persons prayer habits, that is between them and the Lord.

It's been suggested a few times, on this thread, that there appears to be a problem when it comes to following the teachings of Jesus. We are not magically saved by ritualistic faith. All indications are that God will give the gift of his salvation to people who "believe" in his son.

We talked about wanting to get specific with Jesus' teachings. We talked about how Jesus said falling on the rock of his teachings will break us, so that God can build us into something new. Jesus also described this as becoming like little children, or being born again.

Now that we are talking about a specific teaching of Jesus, some people say we should believe what Jesus said, and some people seem to be suggesting that we should believe what they think Jesus meant to say.

I think there is some room for interpretation on what Jesus "meant" to say, but I think it'd be better if we started with what he actually said.

Jesus said that when we pray we should "go into our closet" to pray secretly. Why did he say that?

 

[pescador]

Matthew 6:5-13 says "“Whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, because they love to pray while standing in synagogues and on street corners so that people can see them. Truly I say to you, they have their reward. But whenever you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you. When you pray, do not babble repetitiously like the Gentiles, because they think that by their many words they will be heard. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him."

The emphasis here is that prayer must be done for the right reason. If you are praying to be seen as righteous by others that is showing off. Your reward will be solely the admiration of some people, but not of God. Also, if you pray mindlessly, just spouting religious nonsense, then God won't pay attention to you.

We have to be careful here about getting back under the law, thinking that we must pray in a prescribed way, such as in a room by yourself. That is not scriptural. Going off to pray by yourself is fine; it's a good way to focus on what you are doing to the exclusion of everything else. But it's not the only way to pray.

In John's gospel he wrote what Jesus said before he raised Lazarus from the grave: "Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.”

 

[tremble]

We have to be careful here about getting back under the law, thinking that we must pray in a prescribed way, such as in a room by yourself. That is not scriptural. Going off to pray by yourself is fine; it's a good way to focus on what you are doing to the exclusion of everything else. But it's not the only way to pray.

I understand your concern about the law. That topic has been well covered, several times, earlier in this thread. The result was that "legalism" is something quite apart from a genuine attempt to obey Jesus.

I think all of us here can probably agree that Jesus gave specific commands to his followers. I'm sure we can also probably agree (without even needing to prove it with scripture) that Jesus expects his followers to follow those instructions. After all, if a follower does not follow, then that person isn't really a follower.

Some people have expressed opinions on what they think Jesus meant and I agree there is some room for interpretation. There aren't enough books in the world to write an account of every single situation; we NEED the ability to interpret how to apply the basic lessons Jesus taught. Some might even call that "getting the spirit" of what he said.

Lets take another look at those teachings.

First of all, Jesus talked about secret fasting and secret charity before mentioning prayer all in the same chapter. This helps to set the context because he mentions all three in much the same way.

In order to be consistent, if we argue that public prayer really is okay, (as long as we have the correct motive), then we also need to argue that public charity and public fasting is also okay, "if we have the correct motivations".

Secondly, He talked about people who vocalize their prayers so that other people can hear them. He said this is hypocritical praying and tells us HOW to avoid hypocritical prayer.

Despite what we may think about the goodness of our own personal motives for why we pray for others to hear, the Bible makes it clear that the heart is deceitful above all things and it's not really our opinion which counts when it comes to a command. Jesus was making it clear what HE thinks is the motivation behind public prayer.

That is why he gives a command on how to pray. He talked about going into a closet. Perhaps he meant a literal closet, though I think, in order to avoid legalism, it's worth noting that the spirit of the teaching is about privacy; a prayer between God and the individual.

Besides, if the prayer really IS meant for God, then it doesn't matter if others don't hear it. If we want others to know that we are praying for them, then we can tell them we are praying for them. We can even discuss the specifics of what we will pray for and maybe even get agreement so that we can pray (silently) together for the same things.

Considering all this, is there any good reason why we feel people need to hear the actual prayer? Is there any good reason they should not be satisfied with just knowing that we are praying for them?

Are we those kind of people who say "Lord, Lord" but don't really do what Jesus told us to do?