Sabbatarianism and the 1689 Confession: Were the Particular Baptists wrong?

[BobRyan]

This thread is not titled "all the OTHER doctrines of Seventh-day Adventists like their opposition to OSAS - doctrines that are not about the Law and the Sabbath" as some will notice.

Rather it is about the 1689 confession and "Sabbatarianism" which drills down to focus the BCF on section 19 and section 22 where those subjects are discussed.

You all but run from them.

I quote them with delight.

One of us defends section 19 - and the other avoids it.

How "instructive" for the unbiased objective Bible student.

Off-topic Name calling alone will not solve your problem in logic and reason here. You will need to do better.

As we have seen on another thread - D.L. Moody was at war with those who declare themselves to be at war with God's TEN commandments.

#60

Which gets us back to the subject of this thread - and the BCF and the TEN Commandments.
-- #2 #67

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

You're the one who introduced Dr. Walter Martin.

In response to your off-topic rant --

It is obvious from their own soteriology that the Seventh-day Adventist 'church' isn't Christian.

There was a dark-ages kind of thinking that went that direction but then we had this from one of the non-SDA groups.

Together with the Evangelical Foundation (founded by the late Dr. Donald Grey Barnhouse and publishers of the now-defunct Eternity magazine), we conducted a thorough new evaluation of the Seventh-day Adventists several years ago. The results of that new evaluation were presented comprehensively in the book The Truth About Seventh-day Adventism and then later in the previous editions of this volume.


It is my conviction that one cannot be a true Jehovah’s Witness, Mormon, Christian Scientist, etc., and be a Christian in the biblical sense of the term; but it is perfectly possible to be a Seventh-day Adventist and be a true follower of Jesus Christ despite certain heterodox concepts, which will be discussed.




Such Christian leaders as Louis T. Talbot, M. R. DeHaan, John R. Rice, Anthony A. Hoekema, J. K. Van Baalen, Herbert Bird, and John R. Gerstner have taken the position that Adventism is in fact a cult system; whereas, the late Donald Grey Barnhouse, myself, E. Schuyler English, and quite a few others have concluded the opposite.




Since the opposing view has had wide circulation over a long period of time, I felt it was necessary to include here Seventh-day Adventism as a proper counterbalance—presenting the other side of Adventism and representing the theology of Adventism as the Adventists themselves believe it and not as many critics have caricatured it.

 

[VictorC]

In response to your off-topic rant --

If I understand your vague reference, you're now complaining about a long list of quotes from Ellen White detailing Adventism's non-Christian soteriology. Or maybe it was LarryP2's quote from Baptist sources that show their disdain for Adventism's soteriology. So in response you introduced Dr. Walter Martin as your new authority to displace Ellen White.
Gotcha.

There was a dark-ages kind of thinking that went that direction but then we had this from one of the non-SDA groups.

And of course you've relegated 1983 into the "dark-ages". And of course in your opinion the individuals who opine the Seventh-day Adventist 'church' to be a cult along with Dr. Walter Martin who ended up making that conclusion himself is going to displace the off-topic ranting that comes from the Pen of Liability, Ellen White. This is a source codified in the Fundamental Beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist 'church' that is sandwiched within your self-imposed "dark-ages".

 

[Sophrosyne]

And of course you've relegated 1983 into the "dark-ages". And of course in your opinion the individuals who opine the Seventh-day Adventist 'church' to be a cult along with Dr. Walter Martin who ended up making that conclusion himself is going to displace the off-topic ranting that comes from the Pen of Liability, Ellen White. This is a source codified in the Fundamental Beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist 'church' that is sandwiched within your self-imposed "dark-ages".

And I thought the dark ages were essentially the times (under the Law) before Jesus came and freed them from the medieval practices of the Law (including stonings and animal sacrifices). Now we have people that say we should go back to the dark ages before Christianity and practice the Law and call it Holy and Good yet reject the Holy Practices within it such as animal sacrifices and stonings for sins and strict adherence to 613 commandments within it.

 

[LarryP2]

And I thought the dark ages were essentially the times (under the Law) before Jesus came and freed them from the medieval practices of the Law (including stonings and animal sacrifices). Now we have people that say we should go back to the dark ages before Christianity and practice the Law and call it Holy and Good yet reject the Holy Practices within it such as animal sacrifices and stonings for sins and strict adherence to 613 commandments within it.

It's a laughably-transparent 2.0 version of the Ebionite Heresy: vegetarianism, Salvation-by-Sabbath-Keeping, Jesus-and-Satan-are-brothers-duking-it-out-for-Earthly-Supremacy. They even use exactly the same spam Sabbath verses to justify the heresy.

Google "Ebionite Heresy" and compare the Bible verses they used 2,000 years ago with the internet Sabbath spam. It's identical.

 

[BobRyan]

And I thought the dark ages were essentially the times (under the Law) before Jesus came and freed them from the medieval practices of the Law .

God's Law is hated by many - so you are certainly not alone.

But as we see in the case of even well-known pro-Sunday sources below (which includes the BCF that is the subject of this thread as it turns out) - not all Christians hate the Law of God.

 

[BobRyan]

You're the one who introduced Dr. Walter Martin.

In response to your off-topic rant quoted below--

It is obvious from their own soteriology that the Seventh-day Adventist 'church' isn't Christian.

At which point I show that "once again" your condemnation, vitriol, ranting etc is not shared even by many pro-Sunday sources.

I begin by showing a little history in that regard.

There was a dark-ages kind of thinking that went that direction but then we had this from one of the non-SDA groups.

Together with the Evangelical Foundation (founded by the late Dr. Donald Grey Barnhouse and publishers of the now-defunct Eternity magazine), we conducted a thorough new evaluation of the Seventh-day Adventists several years ago. The results of that new evaluation were presented comprehensively in the book The Truth About Seventh-day Adventism and then later in the previous editions of this volume.


It is my conviction that one cannot be a true Jehovah’s Witness, Mormon, Christian Scientist, etc., and be a Christian in the biblical sense of the term; but it is perfectly possible to be a Seventh-day Adventist and be a true follower of Jesus Christ despite certain heterodox concepts, which will be discussed.




Such Christian leaders as Louis T. Talbot, M. R. DeHaan, John R. Rice, Anthony A. Hoekema, J. K. Van Baalen, Herbert Bird, and John R. Gerstner have taken the position that Adventism is in fact a cult system; whereas, the late Donald Grey Barnhouse, myself, E. Schuyler English, and quite a few others have concluded the opposite.




Since the opposing view has had wide circulation over a long period of time, I felt it was necessary to include here Seventh-day Adventism as a proper counterbalance—presenting the other side of Adventism and representing the theology of Adventism as the Adventists themselves believe it and not as many critics have caricatured it.

If I understand your vague reference, you're now complaining about a long list of quotes from Ellen White.

Nope.

As I explicitly show in my post above - it was your "who is a christian" rant that I was commenting on.

Somehow the all-rant group thinks that they can take a thread that is stated to be on the BCF - Batist Confession of Faith and turn it into the off-topic "100 reasons why I hate so-and-so" or "all my imaginary reasons for claiming that so-and-so is not a Christian".

How sad.

By contrast - I prefer the actual thread topic - even when the owner of the thread abandons his own thread OP.

Which gets us back to the subject of this thread - and the BCF and the TEN Commandments.
-- #2 #67

Even as we have seen on another thread - D.L. Moody was at war with those who declare themselves to be at war with God's TEN commandments.

#60

Be careful my friends - because soon I will be quoting these sources that are the actual subject of this thread - the very thing that many here appear so anxious to avoid.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Sophrosyne]

God's Law is hated by many - so you are certainly not alone.

But as we see in the case of even well-known pro-Sunday sources below - not all Christians hate the Law of God.

Yes you hate God's Law for sure pretending it is holy and breaking it constantly. Your sunday source spamming is tiring for sure nobody is impressed with your using taglines to spam us now.

 

[BobRyan]

And I thought the dark ages were essentially the times (under the Law) before Jesus came and freed them from the medieval practices of the Law .

God's Law is hated by many - so you are certainly not alone.

But as we see in the case of even well-known pro-Sunday sources below (which includes the BCF that is the subject of this thread as it turns out) - not all Christians hate the Law of God.

Yes you hate God's Law for sure pretending it is holy

I think that even you will admit that your statement above shows a strong dislike for the Law of God as we find it in scripture.

This is what you said -

And I thought the dark ages were essentially the times (under the Law) before Jesus came and freed them from the medieval practices of the Law .

your efforts to pretend that those who affirm the Law of God are also claiming to join you in that regard -- leave a lot of room lacking by way of evidence.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[LarryP2]

Even as we have seen on another thread - D.L. Moody was at war with those who declare themselves to be at war with God's TEN commandments.

Once again, you are being deceptive about using a source that does NOT say what you claim it says. No doubt, Moody unequivocally-rejected your view of the Seventh Day Sabbath.

"A man ought to turn aside from his ordinary employment one day in seven. There are many whose occupation will not permit them to observe Sunday, but they should observe some other day as a Sabbath."

Plainly, he believed that Sunday had replaced the Jewish Sabbath:

"When I was a boy, the Sabbath lasted from sundown on Saturday to sundown on Sunday, and I remember how we boys used to shout when it was over. It was the worst day in the week to us. I believe it can be made the brightest day in the week. Every child ought to be reared so that he shall be able to say that he would rather have the other six days weeded out of his memory than the Sabbath of his childhood."
......

Men seem to think they have a right to change the holy day into a holiday. The young have more temptations to break the Sabbath than we had forty years ago. There are three great temptations: first the trolley car, that will take you off into the country for a nickel to have a day of recreation; second, the bicycle, which is leading a good many Christian men to give up their Sabbath and spend the day on excursions; and the third, the Sunday newspaper.
.......
"If it had been prophesied twenty years ago that Christian men would take a wheel and go off on Sunday morning and be gone all day on an excursion, Christians would have been horrified and would have said it was impossible; but that is what is going on today all over the country."

Here's him renouncing the Sunday newspaper as a detriment to "Sabbath," which he plainly believed was Sunday:

"With regard to the Sunday newspaper, I know all the arguments that are brought in its favor- that the work on it is done during the week, that it is the Monday paper that causes Sunday work, and so on. But there are two hundred thousand newsboys selling the paper on Sunday. Would you like to have your boy one of them? Men are kept running trains in order to distribute the papers. Would you like your Sabbath taken away from you? If not, then practice the Golden Rule, and don't touch the papers.
Their contents make them unfit for reading any day, not to say Sunday. Some New York dailies advertise Sunday editions of sixty pages. Many dirty pieces of scandal in this and other countries are raked up and put into them. "Eight pages of fun!"- that is splendid reading for Sunday, isn't it? Even when a so-called sermon is printed, it is completely buried by the fiction and news matter. It is time that ministers went into their pulpits and preached against Sunday newspapers if they haven't done it already."

Dwight L. Moody on the Ten Commandments

It is blatantly dishonest to imply that Moody in any way shape or form endorsed your heretical and anti-Christian view of the 7th Day Sabbath.

 

[Sophrosyne]

your efforts to pretend that those who affirm the Law of God are also claiming to join you in that regard -- leave a lot of room lacking by way of evidence.

in Christ,

Bob

There has been plenty of examples of you refusing to properly keep the Law here such that you have made a mockery of God's Law and claim others who refuse to play this game as "haters".

 

[LarryP2]

There has been plenty of examples of you refusing to properly keep the Law here such that you have made a mockery of God's Law and claim others who refuse to play this game as "haters".

ALL of his "Sunday Keeping" sources agree: Christians keep the 4th Commandment by worshiping on Sunday. NONE of them support the Sabbath-spam-pimping for the Ebionite Heresy that Christians must keep the Saturday Sabbath.

His deceitful contention all along has been that celebrating the Resurrection on Sunday is NOT supported by the New Testament.

ALL of his sources unequivocally disagree.

 

[Sophrosyne]

ALL of his "Sunday Keeping" sources agree: Christians keep the 4th Commandment by worshiping on Sunday. NONE of them support the Sabbath-spam-pimping for the Ebionite Heresy that Christians must keep the Saturday Sabbath.

His deceitful contention all along has been that celebrating the Resurrection on Sunday is NOT supported by the New Testament.

ALL of his sources unequivocally disagree.

Yup.... his spam is nonsense for sure, repeating a lie a thousand times doesn't make it truth but then perhaps those of his flock believe such things.

 

[from scratch]

ALL of his "Sunday Keeping" sources agree: Christians keep the 4th Commandment by worshiping on Sunday. NONE of them support the Sabbath-spam-pimping for the Ebionite Heresy that Christians must keep the Saturday Sabbath.

His deceitful contention all along has been that celebrating the Resurrection on Sunday is NOT supported by the New Testament.

ALL of his sources unequivocally disagree.

He refuses to answer the question of who on his list actually keep the Sabbath. Wonder why?

 

[from scratch]

God's Law is hated by many - so you are certainly not alone.

But as we see in the case of even well-known pro-Sunday sources below (which includes the BCF that is the subject of this thread as it turns out) - not all Christians hate the Law of God.

Wait up there, Bob. Who hates God's law? Is it those who refuse to bow to you?

 

[LarryP2]

He refuses to answer the question of who on his list actually keep the Sabbath. Wonder why?

I brought up several Dwight Moody quotes that clearly state that Moody believed Sunday was the Christian "Sabbath." Alternatively, according to Moody, if one's work schedule precluded taking Sunday off, then one other day a week. He kept Saturday as a day off, since he preached all day Sunday.

Which is precisely what Christianity has been teaching for 2,000 years.

Yet Moody has been repeatedly quoted as one of his primary sources for his revival of the Judaizing/Ebionite heresy of honoring the Saturday Sabbath! That is about as deceitful as you can get.

Let's see if he responds.

 

[Keachian]

He refuses to answer the question of who on his list actually keep the Sabbath. Wonder why?

The only group that would be considered to be a pre-SDA Sabbath keeping group on his list is the Seventh Day Baptists who do not have the Sanctuary Doctrine of SDAs which is the whole driving force of the SDA vitriol against the Sunday Churches, they are more comfortable with other Baptists than other Seventh-dayers

 

[LarryP2]

The only group that would be considered to be a pre-SDA Sabbath keeping group on his list is the Seventh Day Baptists who do not have the Sanctuary Doctrine of SDAs which is the whole driving force of the SDA vitriol against the Sunday Churches, they are more comfortable with other Baptists than other Seventh-dayers

First and foremost, the SDAs got their Sabbath keeping ideas from the Seventh Day Baptists. However, I believe the 7th Day Baptists would be horrified at how something relatively innocent has turned into a horrifying mutation.

First and foremost, the 7th Day Baptists are strongly-Trinitarian and would never spam an entire thread. Second, from what they tell me, their Sabbath is not a Salvation issue, nor is it an eschatology issue. With SDAs, it is both. SDAs clearly advocate a partial atonement theory that is finished by the individual keeping the Sabbath perfectly (at least their definition of "perfect.") As well as the Investigative Judgment doctrine which is unbiblical at best, and at worst, is openly anti-Gospel. The whole thing is topped with a toxic "frosting" of extremely-virulent and hateful anti-Catholicism. I have my mixed feelings about Catholicism, but always leap to their defense when they are attacked with the absurd SDA arguments.

A Baptist website spells out succinctly what is really behind the obnoxious Adventist spam threads:

"Seventh Day Adventists deny the resurrection by observing the Sabbath........if I worship Christ on Saturday I deny that His work is finished, that He is a resurrected, living Savior."

http://www.abaptistvoice.com/English/Articles/Miscelanous/WhyIAmABaptist.htm

That is the consistent Baptist view, whether they be the First- or Seventh-day variant. That is precisely my objection with SDAs.

In fact, in my opinion, the differences between 7th day Baptists and the rest of "Baptist-hood" is marginal, if that. It boils down to the day of worship. If all Sabbath advocates were as honest 7th Day Baptists, I wouldn't waste time arguing against it. With 7DB's, I'm like "Oh well, whatever fries your onions." They remind me of the Ethiopian Orthodox, who have kept BOTH Saturday and Sunday for about the last 2,000 years. Although they have always believed that Sunday was priority, in light of the Resurrection. Which means "We keep Saturday too, unless we forget to. Or was that Sunday?"

You ask cult experts about 7DB's and you get "Who?" "What?" Just another Orthodox Baptist flavor, with slightly more color than normal.

 

[from scratch]

I brought up several Dwight Moody quotes that clearly state that Moody believed Sunday was the Christian "Sabbath." Alternatively, according to Moody, if one's work schedule precluded taking Sunday off, then one other day a week. He kept Saturday as a day off, since he preached all day Sunday.

Which is precisely what Christianity has been teaching for 2,000 years.

Yet Moody has been repeatedly quoted as one of his primary sources for his revival of the Judaizing/Ebionite heresy of honoring the Saturday Sabbath! That is about as deceitful as you can get.

Let's see if he responds.

Taking the day off is much different than observing the Sabbath.

 

[LarryP2]

Taking the day off is much different than observing the Sabbath.

Yes, that is right. But for SDAs, it is neither "taking the day off," nor is it "observing the Sabbath."

It is something they have just made up out of thin air.

Many unruly and disobedient Catholics insist on going to mass on Saturdays for crying out loud! What is the world coming to! Memo to the Pope: "Your valued-position as "harlot of Babylon" is on shaky ground with this Saturday mass business. Please see the Devil for further instructions on how to preserve this valuable perk." In my town, I would say it is about 50/50 (guessing from the number of cars parked by the local Cathedral).