Trinitarian Monotheism?

[Ceridwen]

Would you say that Christian Trinitarianism is more like Pagan Polytheism (e.g. the Greek Twelve Olympians Pantheon) or more like Islamic Monotheism (Tawheed)? Obviously it is different from both, but which is it more similar to? Here are some images of, in sequence, Christian Trinitarianism (represented by Rublev's icon of the Trinity), Pagan Polytheism (represented by Raffaello's Council of the Gods), and Islamic Monotheism (represented by arabic calligraphy of the word "Allah"):

 

[sonshine234]

The Trinity is one God not many gods

 

[Knee V]

They are both equally incorrect. One overemphasizes God's oneness, and one overemphaizes His plurality. Neother is closer to the truth than the other.

 

[yogosans14]

The Trinity is not pagan. It's explicitly implied in man places of the Bible. For starters Genesis 1:26, Matthew 28:19, 2 Corinthians 13:14, Johm 8:58, 10:30.

Another interesting point is when he is Called "Holy, holy, holy" 3 times he's called holy, the 3 persons of the Godhead are Holy.

 

[Thekla]

Would you say that Christian Trinitarianism is more like Pagan Polytheism (e.g. the Greek Twelve Olympians Pantheon) or more like Islamic Monotheism (Tawheed)? Obviously it is different from both, but which is it more similar to? Here are some images of, in sequence, Christian Trinitarianism (represented by Rublev's icon of the Trinity), Pagan Polytheism (represented by Raffaello's Council of the Gods), and Islamic Monotheism (represented by arabic calligraphy of the word "Allah"):

The Rublev icon is called "The Hospitality of Abraham" and is not an icon of the Trinity, but a sort of "typos" of Trinity.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Yeesh. Neither?

Late pagan philosophy tended to see all the gods as aspects of Zeus, so that slightly pushes it in the direction of Trinitarianism, but that's still a form of modalism.

Blegh. I don't think comparative religion is really helpful for understanding the Trinity. It is incomparable.

 

[~Anastasia~]

The Rublev icon is called "The Hospitality of Abraham" and is not an icon of the Trinity, but a sort of "typos" of Trinity.

I have never seen that icon before, but I wondered if it did not represent the three visitors to Abraham, given what Ceridewen was saying.

I don't know much about iconography, but one would never see an icon of God the Father, would they? And I'm guessing not of the Holy Spirit either, except perhaps as figured in Scripture, as a dove or tongues of flame?


Oh - and as far as an answer to the OP, the second picture isn't even showing to me, but if you're asking for a conclusion based on three illustrations you've chosen? I reject the question, as the one representing Trinitarian Monotheism does not represent what you claim it does.

 

[hedrick]

The kind of polytheism we typically think of has separate gods who squabble with each other. In Christian theology the Trinity has a single will, and all three persons are involved in all action. So God is a single actor.

Where things get more difficult is when you get more sophisticated polytheists who see the gods as just representations of different aspects of a single divinity. If you take that far enough you might have something that's as monotheistic as Christianity, though the concepts of God are (as far as I know) still different.

There has also been speculative theology within both Judaism and Islam that can look very similar to at least the economic Trinity. I don't believe however that they would go as far as the orthodox ontological Trinity.

 

[Ceridwen]

the second picture isn't even showing to me

Can you see it now? I changed the image to which the address is directed.

The Rublev icon is called "The Hospitality of Abraham" and is not an icon of the Trinity, but a sort of "typos" of Trinity.

Actually, what you've said is incorrect. Rublev's icon "Trinity" is not the same as the icon "Hospitality of Abraham." It is true that "Trinity" is based on "Hospitality of Abraham." However, Rublev removed the figures of Abraham and Sarah from the scene, and through a subtle use of composition and symbolism changed the subject to focus on the Mystery of the Trinity. "The figures of Abraham and Sarah, always in previous icons of this sacred event, are removed by St. Andrei to emphasize the transcendent revelation to Mankind of the Infinite yet ever-present One Triune Godhead."

https://www.skete.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_id=524

The differences can be seen when you compare the icons one after the other:

 

[~Anastasia~]

I can see it if I change browsers. It still does not show up in Safari (my default) but it does show in Firefox or Google Chrome.

 

[Nanopants]

Can you see it now? I changed the image to which the address is directed.



Actually, what you've said is incorrect. Rublev's icon "Trinity" is not the same as the icon "Hospitality of Abraham." It is true that "Trinity" is based on "Hospitality of Abraham." However, Rublev removed the figures of Abraham and Sarah from the scene, and through a subtle use of composition and symbolism changed the subject to focus on the Mystery of the Trinity. "The figures of Abraham and Sarah, always in previous icons of this sacred event, are removed by St. Andrei to emphasize the transcendent revelation to Mankind of the Infinite yet ever-present One Triune Godhead."

https://www.skete.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_id=524

The differences can be seen when you compare the icons one after the other:

Fascinating icons... I wonder if there is a correlation with the depictions here and with John 20:12:

And she saw two angels in white sitting, one at the head and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.

... and with the ark of the testimony, and the altars that you often see in traditional churches. Whatever the case, iconography fascinates me.

Anyways, I don't think you're correct to say that something was changed to bear significance regarding the Trinity. The significance is made evident by the text itself.

 

[Ceridwen]

The kind of polytheism we typically think of has separate gods who squabble with each other.

Even the pagan polytheists Socrates and Euthyphro believed that there was concord among the gods about the most important things. There were differences, but not about the fundamentals of right and wrong: "all the gods would be agreed as to the propriety of punishing a murderer: there would be no difference of opinion about that." According to them, the Olympic Pantheon have a different will with respect to minutia.

 

[prodromos]

Actually, what you've said is incorrect. Rublev's icon "Trinity" is not the same as the icon "Hospitality of Abraham." It is true that "Trinity" is based on "Hospitality of Abraham." However, Rublev removed the figures of Abraham and Sarah from the scene, and through a subtle use of composition and symbolism changed the subject to focus on the Mystery of the Trinity. "The figures of Abraham and Sarah, always in previous icons of this sacred event, are removed by St. Andrei to emphasize the transcendent revelation to Mankind of the Infinite yet ever-present One Triune Godhead"

They are essentially the same icon, Rublev has simply refined it, and none of the above discounts what Thekla said.

 

[BobRyan]

Would you say that Christian Trinitarianism is more like Pagan Polytheism (e.g. the Greek Twelve Olympians Pantheon) or more like Islamic Monotheism (Tawheed)?

One God in Three persons. The triune Godhead with one interest, one Goal, one purpose.

So in interest, goal, and purpose - like the Jewish "God is One" but in the OT and NT it is 3 persons not one person - and so in that one respect only it is like polytheism.

H2O -- Oxygen is not water - it is not 1/3 of water. But in combination you have one molecule of water.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[~Anastasia~]

And my answer is still that there is a problem with the question, because of the images and choices you present.

From Orthodox answers:

Is it appropriate to depict God the Father in iconography?

ANSWER:
No, it not appropriate to depict God the Father on icons. The only "possible exception" is the icon of the Hospitality of Abraham (Trinity) where one of the angels represents the Father. The entire theological foundation of icons at the seventh council was that although God the Father is invisible and beyond portrayal, we have still "seen" him in his icon who is Jesus Christ. Thus the icon of the Father is Jesus Christ.

Depicting God the Father was consistently condemned, ... The Seventh Council did not authorize the icon of God the Father and was very specific in what icons were acceptable.

In summary, our position here is that depicting God the Father is an anomaly which comes from strong Latin influences or a defective theology of the Trinity and iconography. ... However, it would be our view here that the icon of the Trinity of Roublev, because it is highly symbolic, is acceptable.

This icon is a representation of a Bible story - where the "three men" or "three angels" who visited Abraham were said to be representative of the Trinity.

However, God also said that "no man may see Him and live" ... so this is obviously not three men/angels walking around in physical bodies which are the actual Trinity.

The piece was only allowed because it was considered only representative of the Trinity. We do not see icons of three men consistently being produced in order to show "the Trinity" in human form. So the single allowed exception can hardly be fairly argued to represent the entire faith of Christian Trinitarian Monotheism, imo.

A quick search in Google for images of "Christian Trinity" turns up an image like this one much more often than the one you presented. (And in some variant of this form would appear to be the most common image available for "Christian Trinity").

If you chose this one, is it "more like" pagan pantheism or Islamic monotheism?

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Even the pagan polytheists Socrates and Euthyphro believed that there was concord among the gods about the most important things. There were differences, but not about the fundamentals of right and wrong: "all the gods would be agreed as to the propriety of punishing a murderer: there would be no difference of opinion about that." According to them, the Olympic Pantheon have a different will with respect to minutia.

Yes, but the philosophers of classical Athens and the later Hellenistic era are hardly representative of Homeric and Hesiodic Greek polytheism. They represent the opinions of the intellectual elite, not the operative religion of the cults in the city-states.

 

[Thekla]

Can you see it now? I changed the image to which the address is directed.



Actually, what you've said is incorrect. Rublev's icon "Trinity" is not the same as the icon "Hospitality of Abraham." It is true that "Trinity" is based on "Hospitality of Abraham." However, Rublev removed the figures of Abraham and Sarah from the scene, and through a subtle use of composition and symbolism changed the subject to focus on the Mystery of the Trinity. "The figures of Abraham and Sarah, always in previous icons of this sacred event, are removed by St. Andrei to emphasize the transcendent revelation to Mankind of the Infinite yet ever-present One Triune Godhead."

https://www.skete.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_id=524

The differences can be seen when you compare the icons one after the other:

In its popular title, it is called the Trinity icon but is technically still the "Hospitality of Abraham"; as even the citation you gave states, " are removed by St. Andrei to emphasize the transcendent revelation to Mankind of the Infinite yet ever-present One Triune Godhead." The visitation of the three angels is an early vision/experience of the revelation of the Holy Trinity; the angels are not the Godhead itself.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

They are essentially the same icon, Rublev has simply refined it, and none of the above discounts what Thekla said.

Yeah, I don't know about that. The Russian Orthodox have been much more comfortable depicting members of the Trinity in their ecclesiastical art. The western-style Trinity of an Old Man, a Young Man, and a Dove is much more common in Russian art than in the classical (and canonical) iconography of Byzantium.

I'm not familiar with Rublev's intentions, but it wouldn't surprise me if he, or his immediate viewers, conceptually slipped from typological allusion to representative depiction.

 

[~Anastasia~]

And as far as "the gods" being in agreement ... have you read stories of mythology? They are pretty much driven by the disagreements between the gods and their attempts to circumvent one another?

Hardly a comparison to the unity present in the Holy Trinity.

I'm not sure what you're driving at exactly, but it seems way off.

 

[Thekla]

I have never seen that icon before, but I wondered if it did not represent the three visitors to Abraham, given what Ceridewen was saying.

I don't know much about iconography, but one would never see an icon of God the Father, would they? And I'm guessing not of the Holy Spirit either, except perhaps as figured in Scripture, as a dove or tongues of flame?


Oh - and as far as an answer to the OP, the second picture isn't even showing to me, but if you're asking for a conclusion based on three illustrations you've chosen? I reject the question, as the one representing Trinitarian Monotheism does not represent what you claim it does.

There was a time when icons showing God the Father as the " Ancient of Days" were produced; according to some historians of iconography, this was due to western influence. There is some question on the canonicity of this mode of representation, but also this use is not found as often.