Arminians: What happened to gentiles before the time of Christ?

[abacabb3]

Aside from Naaman and the Phoenecian widow, what was the eternal fate of most gentiles before the time of Christ?

Were they damned? On what basis?

Were they saved? On what basis?

 

[abacabb3]

No takers on this? This is an easy one.

 

[bling]

The child that dies Jew or Gentile:

But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.” 2 Samuel 12: 22-23.

David wrote, “My heart is glad, and my glory rejoices; my flesh also will rest in hope. For you will not leave my soul in Sheol….in your presence is fullness of joy, at your right hand are pleasures forevermore.” Psalm 16:11.

David seems to be saying, his innocent child that died before ever being able to commit will go to heaven.

Paul gives us some insight into Gentiles:

Ro. 1: 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of men who by their wickedness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; 21 for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened.

Ro. 2: 6 For he will render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

Ro. 2: 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

Ro. 5: 13 sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.


God is fair and just, so God will judge the hearts of people to determine who will be saved.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

Aside from Naaman and the Phoenecian widow, what was the eternal fate of most gentiles before the time of Christ?

Were they damned? On what basis?

Were they saved? On what basis?

Here's a clue regarding some of them. My guess is that this was a universal appeal:

1 Peter 3
18For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

 

[sdowney717]

Here's a clue regarding some of them. My guess is that this was a universal appeal:

1 Peter 3
18For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

That reads like a small subset of persons, those during the time of Noah.

What I get from that is the He proclaimed Himself as Lord to those persons, but not in a saving way to them, they are those of which it is said, Every knee shall bow in heaven earth and hell, acknowledging Jesus as Lord.

So what of the many born after the flood?
There is a clue.

 

[sdowney717]

v2 tells us that God has only known Israel. God has not known other people groups over the face of this earth during the OT period..

God having no dealings with these other people points to them not being saved by Him in a meaningful way.
God disciplines those who are of His family, His children only, otherwise they are bastards and get no disciplining corrective punishments. The people of the world do receive a condemnation judgement.
Amos 3
New King James Version (NKJV)

Authority of the Prophet’s Message

3 Hear this word that the Lord has spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying:

2 “You only have I known of all the families of the earth;
Therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.”

 

[abacabb3]

God is fair and just, so God will judge the hearts of people to determine who will be saved.

So, if you don't know Christ you are judged by works?

 

[sdowney717]

So, if you don't know Christ you are judged by works?

And God already said, by works of the Law will no man be justified.
Not justified by God means not saved, destination the lower regions, hell awaits and then the second death.

All the people of the world are resurrected at the end at the Great White Throne Judgement and all get judged by their works.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

That reads like a small subset of persons, those during the time of Noah.

What I get from that is the He proclaimed Himself as Lord to those persons, but not in a saving way to them, they are those of which it is said, Every knee shall bow in heaven earth and hell, acknowledging Jesus as Lord.

So what of the many born after the flood?
There is a clue.

So you think he just went there to taunt them?


Not likely.

 

[abacabb3]

v2 tells us that God has only known Israel. God has not known other people groups over the face of this earth during the OT period.

Why can't gentiles who never had the opportunity to be part of Israel have an opportunity to be saved?

 

[catholichomeschooler]

So, if you don't know Christ you are judged by works?

All men will be judged by their deeds. (not works of the Law, but by their obedience or lack of disobedience to the Holy Spirit)

Romans 2
6God will repay each person according to what they have done. 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

 

[sdowney717]

All men will be judged by their deeds. (not works of the Law, but by their obedience or lack of disobedience to the Holy Spirit)

Romans 2
6God will repay each person according to what they have done. 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil

'Those who do not obey the truth,' this means those who are not obedient to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Those who do not believe in Jesus are evil.
'on every soul of man who does evil'

If your not obedient to the message, then you are evil.

Those who are doing right by God are those who are obedient to the faith of Jesus Christ.

Peter says

Greeting to the Elect Pilgrims

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

Notice 'obedience'?

 

[catholichomeschooler]

'Those who do not obey the truth,' this means those who are not obedient to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Those who do not believe in Jesus are evil.
'on every soul of man who does evil'

If your not obedient to the message, then you are evil.

Those who are doing right by God are those who are obedient to the faith of Jesus Christ.

Peter says


Notice 'obedience'?

Obedience, and... the part you skipped:


7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

 

[sdowney717]

6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,
Apostle Peter also says of obedience this word.

“Behold, I lay in Zion
A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”
7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,[c]

“The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,”[d]
8 and

“A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense.”[e]
They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

 

[sdowney717]

Obedience, and... the part you skipped:


7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Those who persist in doing good are those who are of the faith of Jesus Christ.
Those not of the faith are evil. Even if people say they do so many good works,

Jesus said no one is good except God.

18 So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.

 

[abacabb3]

And God already said, by works of the Law will no man be justified.
Not justified by God means not saved, destination the lower regions, hell awaits and then the second death.

All the people of the world are resurrected at the end at the Great White Throne Judgement and all get judged by their works.

SO, is anyone saved by their works, such as gentiles before the time of Christ?

 

[catholichomeschooler]

Those who persist in doing good are those who are of the faith of Jesus Christ.
Those not of the faith are evil. Even if people say they do so many good works,

That's not what the bible says. You are adding words to scripture.

We needs God's grace to turn to him, but he won't stop us from walking away.

We must endure to be saved.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

SO, is anyone saved by their works, such as gentiles before the time of Christ?

We don't know the mind of God or the depths of the mercy of Jesus.

1 Tim 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.


Note that in the parable of the Sheep and the Goats, the righteous didn't even know they were serving Jesus, but they were.

 

[Skala]

That's not what the bible says. You are adding words to scripture.

We needs God's grace to turn to him, but he won't stop us from walking away.

We must endure to be saved.

Can Christians credit God's grace for the fact that we endure?

 

[catholichomeschooler]

Can Christians credit God's grace for the fact that we endure?

Of course. We can't please God without his grace, but we must cooperate with this free gift to be saved.

His grace reaches out to all men. Do you think all men will be saved?