Do masons build?

[Albion]

To summarize for others: 1) the Masonic obligations do include harsh penalties

No, they do not.

2) they are not enforced

I guess it follows that, if there are no actual penalties other than expulsion from the lodge, what Skip is painting for you won't be "enforced."

3) a very few GL's in the U.S. have removed them because they are objectionable; 4) the EA candidate is never told he'll be acquiescing to harsh mutilation as part of the obligation;

No candidate is under any obligation to agree to anything he's being told at any time during the initiation.

5) the WM is lying when he says the candidate will find nothing objectionable in the obligation

Apparently there's a disagreement here over who is lying.

6) many Masons will not reveal their jurisdictions when asked because they don't want to have to defend and/or justify direct quotes from their own GL materials. Cordially, Skip.

Not from you, that's true. But I have found no such reluctance to reveal such information to others. This is another instance of one person with an agenda trying to make something that's perfectly logical and ordinary seem conspiratorial. Of course, Skip will not reveal -- and has not revealed when asked -- details of his own organization's operations.

 

[Simpleman25]

The lodge does not let him see the obligations and oath before he is required to make them. If he so desires, the EA candidate can research the degrees ahead of time, but many choose not to do so. FC and MM candidates, of course, know what lies in wait for them.

Here is what the GL of KY tells the candidate in the EA degree about the coming obligation. It is consistent with most, if not all, GL's in the U.S. BTW, the ritual quoted was purchased from the KY GL last year.Then he takes the following obligation and oath:You can make up your own mind about what I've said. To me, it's clear that the candidate is falsely promised that the obligation will contain nothing to which he can object, then he is made to promise to have his throat cut if he transgresses the obligation. Sorry, I'm not sure how much more objectionable it can become.

One may wonder why the EA actually continues. One reason is that he's blindfolded, semi-naked, tied with a rope on his body, kneeling before an altar and with a VSL, Square and Compasses in his hands. Just how free is he to object? Many EA's never come back to the lodge, and I'd bet that the obligation is one of the main reasons.

Lastly, did you catch the implication of the phrase the WM used? He said: "you professed faith in God, that God whom we, as Masons, reverence and serve." He states as a fact that all Masons reverence the same deity. Does that mean that all Masons in Kentucky all are of the same religion? I think it just highlights the view that the 'god' of Masonry is that deity that goes by many names (Allah, Jesus, God, Vishnu, etc), with all men worshipping that one god with various degrees of ignorance about him. And, of course, all KY Masons involved in the EA ceremony who claim to be Christians are, in fact, participating in a lie.

To summarize for others: 1) the Masonic obligations do include harsh penalties; 2) they are not enforced; 3) a very few GL's in the U.S. have removed them because they are objectionable; 4) the EA candidate is never told he'll be acquiescing to harsh mutilation as part of the obligation; 5) the WM is lying when he says the candidate will find nothing objectionable in the obligation; 6) many Masons will not reveal their jurisdictions when asked because they don't want to have to defend and/or justify direct quotes from their own GL materials. Cordially, Skip.

There are numerous errors in your comments Skip.

I'll stick with the most obvious one first. You make a huge assumption that the candidate has no prior knowledge concerning the oath hes taking.

For me and the majority of masons this is not the way it happened. After a man has been accepted, he is assigned a coach. This coach helps him to learn the cipher. While learning to read the cipher, the prospect mason is memorizing the EA degree.

When the man is taking the oath in the lodge, he has been studying and memorizing his part. Since this does take time, he is very aware of his obligation.

Doesn't matter which GL the man is in, every GL in the US does it this way.

The 2nd issue I have is that you claimed that after learning the oath, many men never return. Care to show some evidence to this?

This is yet more evidence that you can't begin to know about masonry by just reading GL's.

 

[Simpleman25]

Of course, Skip will not reveal -- and has not revealed when asked -- details of his own organization's operations.


You've hit upon another reason I truly believe that group is a cult.

 

[Albion]

The lodge does not let him see the obligations and oath before he is required to make them. If he so desires, the EA candidate can research the degrees ahead of time, but many choose not to do so. FC and MM candidates, of course, know what lies in wait for them.

Here is what the GL of KY tells the candidate in the EA degree about the coming obligation. It is consistent with most, if not all, GL's in the U.S. BTW, the ritual quoted was purchased from the KY GL last year.Then he takes the following obligation and oath:You can make up your own mind about what I've said. To me, it's clear that the candidate is falsely promised that the obligation will contain nothing to which he can object, then he is made to promise to have his throat cut if he transgresses the obligation. Sorry, I'm not sure how much more objectionable it can become.

One may wonder why the EA actually continues. One reason is that he's blindfolded, semi-naked, tied with a rope on his body, kneeling before an altar and with a VSL, Square and Compasses in his hands. Just how free is he to object?

I know what happened in my case. Before the occasion, I knew most of what I would hear and be asked. I would not have denied or compromised my faith, so if there had been any such demand or even a strange religious pronouncement, I would have removed the blindfold, thanked the assembled brothers for their kindness towards me, and then retired from the room.

The notion that this would have been impossible or anything close to that is absurd.

Lastly, did you catch the implication of the phrase the WM used? He said: "you professed faith in God, that God whom we, as Masons, reverence and serve." He states as a fact that all Masons reverence the same deity. Does that mean that all Masons in Kentucky all are of the same religion?

'
No. It means what any Christian means when using such words, that there is but one God, despite the different views that men have. That doesn't challenge my faith in the least since it is so obviously true.

I think it just highlights the view that the 'god' of Masonry is that deity that goes by many names (Allah, Jesus, God, Vishnu, etc), with all men worshipping that one god with various degrees of ignorance about him.

Well, that's the main problem with your denunciations of Masonry. They are all based on what you intuit or infer, not what is..

And, of course, all KY Masons involved in the EA ceremony who claim to be Christians are, in fact, participating in a lie.

...according to your own conception of what Christianity is. I feel no obligation to make your religious theories define my Christian faith.
And I am certainly not going to be guided by you in preference to my own church and bishop which do not find any reason for me not to belong to the lodge.

 

[Skip Sampson]

You've asserted this to be the case, but so far I've not seen the evidence that this is true. All you've done is tell me the contents of the oath itself, not that the candidates have never seen it before.

Should be easy enough to find out. Ask the Masons on this forum if the lodge folks told them exactly what the obligation would read like before they were actually asked to repeat it in the EA degree. Should be interesting. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Simpleman25]

Should be easy enough to find out. Ask the Masons on this forum if the lodge folks told them exactly what the obligation would read like before they were actually asked to repeat it in the EA degree. Should be interesting. Cordially, Skip.

Its been answered numerous times. I will elaborate one more time for you.

When men are accepted they are given a coach to teach them how to read the cipher book. As they are learning how to read the cipher, they are memorizing the EA degree. You see, once in lodge, no written material is used. It is all done by memory.

You can see that he is wrong when he says the candidate is unaware. He is not blind, even though he is blindfolded. He has been studying and memorizing his part in the 'play'.

As I've said before, you cannot begin to know what's happened in a lodge room by reading state GL's. Its impossible.

One has to experience the lodge from inside, not outside.

You see Skip, this is what I've been trying to tell you all this time. You can not rely solely on GL's to educate yourself about freemasonry. There are things you won't and shouldn't ever know unless you join.

Much like my comment referring to certain key words and phrases used in the early documents of this country. While I was speaking the truth, all you could do is ridicule.

 

[Skip Sampson]

No, they do not. ... I guess it follows that, if there are no actual penalties other than expulsion from the lodge, what Skip is painting for you won't be "enforced."

The above is simply false, and I see it as intentional deception on your part. Both the obligations and Masonic law contain penalties, with only the latter actually enforced. We have been addressing those in the EA degree obligation, but one only need read a bit further in the EA degree ritual to find those in the obligation identified exactly as such (emphasis added):

Temperance is that due restraint upon our affections and passions which renders the body tame and governable, and frees the mind from the allurements of vice. This virtue should be the constant practice of every Mason, as he is thereby taught to avoid excess, or contracting any licentious or vicious habit, the indulgence of which might lead him to disclose some of those valuable secrets which he has promised to conceal and never reveal, and which would consequently subject him to the contempt and detestation of all good Masons, as well as to the penalty of his obligation, which alludes to the guttural. (KY GL, EA ritual)

You only mentioned one of the penalties in Masonic law, which may be an indicator of your knowledge. Here is what the KY GL Constitution says on the subject:

SECTION 170. Masonic Penalties. The only penalties known to Masonry in the jurisdiction of The Grand Lodge of Kentucky, are fine, forfeiture, reprimand, suspension and expulsion.

I think most GL's include those as penalties. Feel free to identify your jurisdiction and I'll see if I can't look them up for you. It is interesting to see the GL more or less denying the penalties in the obligations while yet retaining them. Such inconsistency occurs in interesting places in Masonic GL documentation.

No candidate is under any obligation to agree to anything he's being told at any time during the initiation.

Probably true, though he would not be able to continue in the degree were he to object. Too, Masonry is pretty clear that the man must make himself over to conform to Masonry, and not try to have it the other way around.

Apparently there's a disagreement here over who is lying.

Not on my part. It's a Masonic condition.

Of course, Skip will not reveal -- and has not revealed when asked -- details of his own organization's operations.

You've never asked, so why would you think that? Feel free to show us where I've refused to answer questions about my 'organization.'

Your post shows a transition in thought on your part. Apparently, refusing to discuss didn't work, so misdirection and deceit have become the order of the day. Good luck with that. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Skip Sampson]

When men are accepted they are given a coach to teach them how to read the cipher book. As they are learning how to read the cipher, they are memorizing the EA degree. You see, once in lodge, no written material is used. It is all done by memory.

You can see that he is wrong when he says the candidate is unaware. He is not blind, even though he is blindfolded. He has been studying and memorizing his part in the 'play'.

Are you stating for the record that a candidate in your jurisdiction is walked through the cipher ritual book before taking his EA degree, and that he has read through the obligation before he is asked to take it?

The 2nd issue I have is that you claimed that after learning the oath, many men never return. Care to show some evidence to this?

Again, you really should read my posts before responding to them. Here's what I actually said:

Many EA's never come back to the lodge, and I'd bet that the obligation is one of the main reasons.

See if you can improve on your accuracy from here on out. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Albion]

The above is simply false, and I see it as intentional deception on your part.

That's part of your "patter," isn't it? I mean, Masons are obligated to deceive and cover up, according to your line, right? You know...no matter how clear and forthcoming any of us is, you get to say that we wouldn't tell the truth anyway.

Both the obligations and Masonic law contain penalties, with only the latter actually enforced.

Expulsion is the only penalty. I already said that.

You've never asked, so why would you think that? Feel free to show us where I've refused to answer questions about my 'organization.'

Oh, I don't remember right now where to look, but you can handle that in an jiffy. Why don't you start by giving all readers its name and location, what its stated purpose for being is, and how much you earned from it last year? And BTW, how long were you a Mason yourself? Thanks.

 

[pyramid33]

Here are the penalties, which nearly all U.S. GL's require:Most GL's note that these are symbolic, but the fact they are there is telling, if for no other reason that the candidate isn't warned about them and the lodge is making him swear to something that isn't true. The United Grand Lodge of England, the 'mother' GL if you will, removed the penalties, as have some U.S. GL's. Cordially, Skip.

Those sound very evil and God forbid any Christian adhere to such nonsense oaths.

 

[pyramid33]

That's part of your "patter," isn't it? I mean, Masons are obligated to deceive and cover up, according to your line, right? You know...no matter how clear and forthcoming any of us is, you get to say that we wouldn't tell the truth anyway.

Your free, at any time, to say all can join and share all knowledge gathered and practices and intents and that it isn't a club for only a few instead for every creature.

Im sure God is first, though following God isn't bad.

 

[Albion]

Your free, at any time, to say all can join and share all knowledge gathered and practices and intents and that it isn't a club for only a few instead for every creature.

Well, it is the world's largest fraternity, everyone knows where we meet, everything that happens is available online and from films WE put out and in innumerable books, so with the exception of a couple of passwords, that's basically the case right now...and obviously so. You know much LESS about the Elks, the Daughters of the American Revolution, the Girl Scouts, and most churches.

 

[pyramid33]

Well, it is the world's largest fraternity, everyone knows where we meet, everything that happens is available online and from films WE put out and in innumerable books, so with the exception of a couple of passwords, that's basically the case right now...and obviously so. You know much LESS about the Elks, the Daughters of the American Revolution, the Girl Scouts, and most churches.

The Elks? Daughters of American Revolution? Girl Scouts? Most churches? I dont need a blind fold to join any of those.

 

[Albion]

Is that your final answer?

I'm open to any questions.

 

[Albion]

The Elks? Daughters of American Revolution? Girl Scouts? Most churches? I dont need a blind fold to join any of those.

How do you know?

And BTW I don't need to wear merit badges and a little scarf around my neck to be a Mason. How awful of the Girl Scouts to have that feature, huh?

 

[smaneck]

That's part of your "patter," isn't it? I mean, Masons are obligated to deceive and cover up, according to your line, right? You know...no matter how clear and forthcoming any of us is, you get to say that we wouldn't tell the truth anyway.

LOL. Sounds exactly what I hear evangelical Christians saying about Muslims and the practice of taqiyyih. They take an obscure Shi'ite practice an interpret it to mean you can't believe anything a Muslim says about their own religion.

 

[Skip Sampson]

I mean, Masons are obligated to deceive and cover up, according to your line, right?

Not obligated to do so, no. I think it's move of a personal choice on the Mason's part.

no matter how clear and forthcoming any of us is, you get to say that we wouldn't tell the truth anyway.

Hard to judge that point, as you have neither been forthcoming nor clear. You even hide your jurisdiction so you don't have to defend what your GL says.

Expulsion is the only penalty. I already said that.

Indeed, you did make that error. I guess suspension is not a penalty in your GL. I'd check your GL's Constitution/Code, but.....

Oh, I don't remember right now where to look...

Gee, what a surprise: you can't back up your charges. At least we're used to that by now.

Why don't you start by giving all readers its name and location, what its stated purpose for being is, and how much you earned from it last year? And BTW, how long were you a Mason yourself? Thanks.

Cornerstone Ministries, Fayetteville, NC, research, writing & teaching about cults and false religions (i.e., non-Christian), and my income from it averaged $0.00 per month, which is the norm for my ministry work. And you are welcome. Now, your GL? Cordially, Skip.

 

[smaneck]

Cornerstone Ministries, Fayetteville, NC, research, writing & teaching about cults and false religions (i.e., non-Christian), and my income from it averaged $0.00 per month, which is the norm for my ministry work. And you are welcome. Now, your GL? Cordially, Skip.

So how do you support yourself, Skip?

 

[Skip Sampson]

I'm open to any questions.

Let's see if you are as open to answering questions as you are to receiving them:
1. Why did you lie about Skip not answering questions about his ministry?
2. What is your GL jurisdiction?
3. Did anyone in your lodge let you read the actual EA obligation you would be taking before you went through the EA degree? Cordially, Skip.

 

[Skip Sampson]

Sounds exactly what I hear evangelical Christians saying about Muslims and the practice of taqiyyih. They take an obscure Shi'ite practice an interpret it to mean you can't believe anything a Muslim says about their own religion.

The practice is based on the Koran, 16:106. I believe it was to be used by prisoners of war. Here is a good reference for further information: taqiyyah (religious doctrine) -- Encyclopedia Britannica

Mormons have also been accused, with some justification, of 'lying for the Lord.' Cordially, Skip.