A Pondering of the Peculiar (4)

[AV1611VET]

Mine is basically my brain saying "nope, what you want to believe isn't gonna be what you believe, not happening".

Thus the terms "wake-up call" and "reality check."

 

[PsychoSarah]

Thus the terms "wake-up call" and "reality check."

That can go for either position.

 

[bhsmte]

Mine is basically my brain saying "nope, what you want to believe isn't gonna be what you believe, not happening".

Everyone has their own triggers. Me, I was Christian most of my life and really never dug into the bible that much. When I did, and compared that to reality, I simply felt I would have been fooling myself to keep believing and my personal psychology wouldn't allow me to do that.

 

[GenemZ]

I don't know. I barely, I mean just barely got into the Tyre prophecy and he ran away.

Again.


Perhaps he realize how indefensible that particular prophesy is.

Hello? I had real things to do. You want me to just jump in with a superficial evaluation?

 

[GenemZ]

Ninth commandment warning. You kept running away. Please don't lie. And it seems we are trying to discuss it now.



How about the most obvious failed prophesy.


Ezekiel 26 - A Prophecy Against Tyre - In the - Bible Gateway

I fail to see your point. The name of the land Tyre may have remained. But we do not find any Tyreanians. God spoke of destroying the people. Just like we do not see any Philistines today. But, the land of Palestine remains. Palestine was named after the Philistines.

19 For this is what the Lord God says: “When I make you a ruined city like other deserted cities, when I raise up the deep against you so that the mighty waters cover you,


There was no mention of being forever covered. It could have been a tsunami that utterly wiped them out.

For, it does not say...


For this is what the Lord God says: “When I make you a ruined city like other deserted cities, when I raise up the deep against you so that the mighty waters cover you forever. (it does not say that!)

Looks like God dealt the final blow over the people with a massive flood.


And, here is how that flood was brought about.

The destruction of Tyre could have been plausible. However, the prophecy that Tyre would be thrown into the midst of the sea, and its former location be scraped like the top of a rock seemed more than implausible. Yet both these prophecies were fulfilled. Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon besieged the city and conquered it. The inhabitants of Tyre, however, escaped to a nearby island. Nebuchadnezzar then rendered the city to ruins. For two and-a-half centuries, these ruins were a mute contradiction of the Bible.

When Alexander the Great conquered the Medo-Persian empire, long after Nebuchadnezzar's siege, the new island city of Tyre resisted his advances. Frustrated by their efforts, Alexander ordered his troops to build a causeway to the island by throwing the ancient ruins of mainland Tyre into the midst of the sea,

Tyre and the Bible | Destruction Of Tyre | Alexander the Great Victory



​

It was a temporary flood. A man-made dam type flood that did it!

God did destroy them.

You do not find any Tyreranians alive today. Nor, will you find Assyrians, nor Philistines... let alone Sodomites.God wiped them all from the face of the earth.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I fail to see your point. The name of the land Tyre may have remained. But we do not find any Tyreanians. God spoke of destroying the people. Just like we do not see any Philistines today. But, the land of Palestine remains. Palestine was named after the Philistines.

Remember when at the start I said that the prediction "You will see a red car" is not a prophesy? There are "Tyreanians". They were never wiped out by Nebuchadnezzar. They were not even wiped out by Alexander the Great. That prophesy applied only to Nebuchadnezzar and he failed.

19 For this is what the Lord God says: “When I make you a ruined city like other deserted cities, when I raise up the deep against you so that the mighty waters cover you,
There was no mention of being forever covered. It could have been a tsunami that utterly wiped them out.

That never happened. Where on Earth did you get that claim from? It looks like you are trying to escape to fantasy.

For, it does not say...


For this is what the Lord God says: “When I make you a ruined city like other deserted cities, when I raise up the deep against you so that the mighty waters cover you forever.

Looks like God dealt the final blow over the people with a massive flood.

There was no flood. Show me a record of a flood.


[quote[And, here is how that flood was brought about.

The destruction of Tyre could have been plausible. However, the prophecy that Tyre would be thrown into the midst of the sea, and its former location be scraped like the top of a rock seemed more than implausible. Yet both these prophecies were fulfilled. Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon besieged the city and conquered it. The inhabitants of Tyre, however, escaped to a nearby island. Nebuchadnezzar then rendered the city to ruins. For two and-a-half centuries, these ruins were a mute contradiction of the Bible. [/quote]



It helps if the person you quote is not a total idiot. Tyre was the island. The island is now connected to the land. But if your source does not even know that Tyre was an island, and is now tied to the mainland, you have no hope.

Total fail on your part, try again.

When Alexander the Great conquered the Medo-Persian empire, long after Nebuchadnezzar's siege, the new island city of Tyre resisted his advances. Frustrated by their efforts, Alexander ordered his troops to build a causeway to the island by throwing the ancient ruins of mainland Tyre into the midst of the sea,

There was no "mainland Tyre". The verse does not even talk about a mainland Tyre. Those are the "settlements" mentioned. Once again Tyre is and always was the island.

Tyre and the Bible | Destruction Of Tyre | Alexander the Great Victory

It was a temporary flood. A man-made dam type flood that did it!

God did destroy them.

You do not find any Tyreranians alive today. Nor, will you find Assyrians, nor Philistines... let alone Sodomites.God wiped them all from the face of the earth.

Nope, the people of Tyre were never wiped out. You have no evidence of that. In fact the evidence shows that though attacked many times before and after the prophecy the people of Tyre kept coming back.

You posted quite a bit of wrong information in your post. If you want to go over the details I would be happy to.

Perhaps you should read this article:

Biblical Errancy: Ezekiel's Prophecy of Tyre: a failed prophecy

He does a very thorough job of showing how all of those apologetics fail.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Hello? I had real things to do. You want me to just jump in with a superficial evaluation?

You kept asking and then when it was time to discuss the matter you were gone.


It looked pretty much like you turned tail and ran.

I replied to your terribly misinformed apologist nonsense.

 

[GenemZ]

Remember when at the start I said that the prediction "You will see a red car" is not a prophesy? There are "Tyreanians". They were never wiped out by Nebuchadnezzar. They were not even wiped out by Alexander the Great. That prophesy applied only to Nebuchadnezzar and he failed.



That never happened. Where on Earth did you get that claim from?

Bible scholars who are also historians. Obviously,you never sat under a well educated pastor who knows how to teach thoroughly.

There was no flood. Show me a record of a flood.

It says it was flooded. You have a record book of every flood that took place in ancient history?


[quote[And, here is how that flood was brought about.

The destruction of Tyre could have been plausible. However, the prophecy that Tyre would be thrown into the midst of the sea, [/quote]

I believe that speaks of the people of Tyre. Not the land mass.

It helps if the person you quote is not a total idiot. Tyre was the island. The island is now connected to the land. But if your source does not even know that Tyre was an island, and is now tied to the mainland, you have no hope.

Alexander the Great conquered Tyre by building a dam. You can Google that.

Total fail on your part, try again.

There was no "mainland Tyre". The verse does not even talk about a mainland Tyre. Those are the "settlements" mentioned. Once again Tyre is and always was the island.

There was also a mainland where people of Tyre apparently lived. King David at one time lived in a castle in raised mountain area... but the people lived in lower areas. The King of Tyre was on the raised rock.

Nope, the people of Tyre were never wiped out. You have no evidence of that. In fact the evidence shows that though attacked many times before and after the prophecy the people of Tyre kept coming back.

Where are they?

Perhaps you should read this article:

Biblical Errancy: Ezekiel's Prophecy of Tyre: a failed prophecy

He does a very thorough job of showing how all of those apologetics fail.

OK... he said this

Both the Hebrew name (Zor) and the Arabic name (Sour) of Tyre mean "rock," and the only rock around is the island.

So? If the Tyre people's population spread to the mainland and settled there, it would still be called the land of Tyres. Just look at the thirteen American colonies and America today. Are the eastern starboard states called the colonies, and the rest America? Same principle applied.


Where are the Tyre people today? Just because someone lives in what was once Tyre, does not make them the original Tyre people. Just like the Arabs who claim to be Palestinians are not Philistines .. Palestine means the land of the Philistines.​

 

[Subduction Zone]

Bible scholars who are also historians. Obviously,you never sat under a well educated pastor who knows how to teach thoroughly.

Ah, failures. People who did not understand either the Bible verse or the history of the area. Nice find. You found the worst of both fields.

Would you like to go over their failures?

It says it was flooded. You have a record book of every flood that took place in ancient history?

Your terrible source says it was flooded. No other history says that is was flooded. That is a fail on your part. But then your source did not even know where Tyre is.

[And, here is how that flood was brought about.

The destruction of Tyre could have been plausible. However, the prophecy that Tyre would be thrown into the midst of the sea,

I believe that speaks of the people of Tyre. Not the land mass. ​

The people of Tyre were never thrown into the sea. Again, you picked an unbelievably terrible source to try to defend the failed Tyre prophecy.

Alexander the Great conquered Tyre by building a dam. You can Google that.

Nope. He did not build a dam. And you can Google that. He built a causeway. A causeway is not a dam.

There was also a mainland where people of Tyre apparently lived. King David at one time lived in a castle in raised mountain area... but the people lived in lower areas. The King of Tyre was on the raised rock.

No, the land areas were under Tyre's domain, but were not Tyre. Even the Bible verse notes that. Why didn't you read the Bible verse itself? Or didn't you understand it?

Where are they?

Some are still in Tyre. Some have moved on. People move. And remember the prophecy only applied to Nebuchadnezzar.





OK... he said this



So? If the Tyre people's population spread to the mainland and settled there, it would still be called the land of Tyres. Just look at the thirteen American colonies and America today. Are the eastern starboard states called the colonies, and the rest America? Same principle applied.


Where are the Tyre people today? Just because someone lives in what was once Tyre, does not make them the original Tyre people. Just like the Arabs who claim to be Palestinians are not Philistines .. Palestine means the land of the Philistines.

Where is your evidence that the people of Palestine are not Philistines? Yes Arabs moved in too. Some of the Philistines moved out. People move.

So you have still totally failed. Clean up your quotes and we can go over your failures. Don't try to get too fancy.

​

 

[GenemZ]

Ah, failures. People who did not understand either the Bible verse or the history of the area. Nice find. You found the worst of both fields.

Would you like to go over their failures?

You got a new nickname. "Snidely."

I'm pretty much grabbing things offline right now. (like you are doing) If you truly want a thorough answer? Its not as superficial as you want it to be. I would have to make a study of that chapter. That takes time to do right.
​

 

[Subduction Zone]

You got a new nickname. "Snidely."

I'm pretty much grabbing things offline right now. (like you are doing) If you truly want a thorough answer? Its not as superficial as you want it to be. I would have to make a study of that chapter. That takes time to do right.
​

The one article that I linked is far from superficial. Also I am more than ready to defend the fact that the failed prophesy applies to only Nebby. If you have to bring in others you have already lost.

The fact is that this prophecy failed terribly. Only the most foolish of apologists even tries to defend it. That is why your sources are so poor.

Again, what aspect of it would you like to go over first? It seems that you do not understand the prophesy.

By the way, this prophecy is a twofer. Zeke realized years later that he really dropped the ball on this one so he gave another prophesy for Nebby, that he would defeat the Egyptians

Never happened.

 

[GenemZ]

Here we go... http://www.ancient.eu.com/Tyre/

Tyre is an ancient Phoenician port city which, in myth, is known as the birthplace of Europa (who gave Europe its name) and Dido of Carthage (who gave aid to, and fell in love with, Aeneas of Troy). The name means 'rock' and the city consisted of two parts, the main trade centre on an island, and 'old Tyre', about a half mile opposite on the mainland.

​

 

[GenemZ]

By the way, this prophecy is a twofer. Zeke realized years later that he really dropped the ball on this one so he gave another prophesy for Nebby, that he would defeat the Egyptians

Never happened.

I guess you just did not know? Nebuchadnezzar first learned of the Land of Israel while he was on his way to conquering the Egyptians.


Some more you never knew: NEBUCHADNEZZAR - JewishEncyclopedia.com

On this occasion Nebuchadnezzar ordered the singers of the Temple to add their music to his feast; but they preferred to bite off their fingers, or even to be killed, rather than to play their sacred music in honor of the Babylonian idols (Pesiḳ. R. 31 [ed. Friedmann, p. 144a], 28 [136a]; comp. Moses, Children of). He heartlessly drove the captives before him, entirely without clothing, until the inhabitants of Bari induced him to clothe them (Pesiḳ. R. l.c. [ed. Friedmann, p. 135b]). But even after the heavily burdened Jews finally reached Babylonia they had no rest from the tyrant, who massacred thousands of youths whose beauty had inflamed the passion of the Babylonian women—a passion which did not subside until the corpses were stamped upon and mutilated (Sanh. 92b; comp. Ezekiel in Rabbinical Literature). Nebuchadnezzar carried to Babylon, together with the Jews, cedar-trees which he had taken from Lebanon (Lam. R. i. 4), and millstones which he made the captive youths bear (l.c. v. 13). Even the Jews who had sought refuge from the Babylonians in Ammon and Moab or in Egypt did not escape Nebuchadnezzar, who, on conquering Egypt, carried all the Jews in that country, including Baruch and Jeremiah, to Babylonia (Midr. 'Eser Galuyyot, ed. Grünhut, l.c. iii. 14; Seder 'Olam R. xxvi.). Nebuchadnezzar was equally victorious in his expedition against Tyre, whose king, Hiram, his stepfather, he dethroned and put to a painful death (Lev. R. xviii. 2; Yalḳ., Ezek. 367).
​

The unedited full-text of the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I guess you just did not know? Nebuchadnezzar first learned of the Land of Israel while he was on his way to conquering the Egyptians.


Some more you never knew: NEBUCHADNEZZAR - JewishEncyclopedia.com

On this occasion Nebuchadnezzar ordered the singers of the Temple to add their music to his feast; but they preferred to bite off their fingers, or even to be killed, rather than to play their sacred music in honor of the Babylonian idols (Pesiḳ. R. 31 [ed. Friedmann, p. 144a], 28 [136a]; comp. Moses, Children of). He heartlessly drove the captives before him, entirely without clothing, until the inhabitants of Bari induced him to clothe them (Pesiḳ. R. l.c. [ed. Friedmann, p. 135b]). But even after the heavily burdened Jews finally reached Babylonia they had no rest from the tyrant, who massacred thousands of youths whose beauty had inflamed the passion of the Babylonian women—a passion which did not subside until the corpses were stamped upon and mutilated (Sanh. 92b; comp. Ezekiel in Rabbinical Literature). Nebuchadnezzar carried to Babylon, together with the Jews, cedar-trees which he had taken from Lebanon (Lam. R. i. 4), and millstones which he made the captive youths bear (l.c. v. 13). Even the Jews who had sought refuge from the Babylonians in Ammon and Moab or in Egypt did not escape Nebuchadnezzar, who, on conquering Egypt, carried all the Jews in that country, including Baruch and Jeremiah, to Babylonia (Midr. 'Eser Galuyyot, ed. Grünhut, l.c. iii. 14; Seder 'Olam R. xxvi.). Nebuchadnezzar was equally victorious in his expedition against Tyre, whose king, Hiram, his stepfather, he dethroned and put to a painful death (Lev. R. xviii. 2; Yalḳ., Ezek. 367).
​

The unedited full-text of the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

Nebby was not an ignorant fool. He knew of Israel long before then. Why do you think that was when he first learned of Israel? Your article does not even imply that.

And now it is clear that even you knew you lost. You are totally off topic.

Thanks for admitting that the Tyre prophesy was a total failure.

Next!

 

[Subduction Zone]

By the way, Nebby never conquered Egypt. You need a better source than that.

When he was young and his father was still king he defeated the Egyptian armies in the field. But that was one battle and he never conquered Egypt.

You should be able to find a valid source if that claim is true.

http://errancy.org/egypt.html

 

[GenemZ]

Nebby was not an ignorant fool. He knew of Israel long before then. Why do you think that was when he first learned of Israel? Your article does not even imply that.

My knowledge is not based upon Google searches. The Google searches are something I can cite with.

And now it is clear that even you knew you lost. You are totally off topic.

I would get rid of that dummy if I were you. Someone is going to wise up and hit you knowing you're throwing your voice.

You have nothing but a bad premise that was given by a frustrated though determined atheist, who is driven by a bias and hatred that you identify with.

 

[Subduction Zone]

My knowledge is not based upon Google searches. The Google searches are something I can cite with.

I know. It is based upon even less. But yes, Google searches can be useful.

Have you read the actual verses yet? Are you ready to discuss those? You do know that so far all you have linked is people that have made very foolish claims. And you too, calling a causeway a dam

I would get rid of that dummy if I were you. Someone is going to wise up and hit you knowing you're throwing your voice.

You have nothing but a bad premise that was given by a frustrated though determined atheist, who is driven by a bias and hatred that you identify with.

What on Earth are you talking about? I have given the only source that honestly deals with that failure yet. Unless you do something my statement stands that the Tyre prophecy is a total failure.

You aren't the only creationist that has run away from this biblical failure and you probably will not be the last.

 

[GenemZ]

I know. It is based upon even less. But yes, Google searches can be useful.

Have you read the actual verses yet? Are you ready to discuss those? You do know that so far all you have linked is people that have made very foolish claims. And you too, calling a causeway a dam

You are cutting and pasting another person's work, who you assume he knows what he is talking about. He makes declarations, then offers no proof. Who are you kidding? You are just running with what you read and take the assumed position that if you act like it can not be wrong, that you will win. You have a lot to learn.. That stuff is effective with young Christians who are first starting to grow. I am not going to jump through your hoops because you can not verify what you are cutting and pasting is true! I showed you some things by people who know their history and Bible, and you shout that they do not know what they are talking about. You do not know your Bible. Go pick on someone who is a baby and knows only a little if you want that stuff to work.


Here is an example of your presumptuous thinking.

Nebby was not an ignorant fool. He knew of Israel long before then. Why do you think that was when he first learned of Israel? Your article does not even imply that.

He may have heard of Israel. But while he was on the way to battle with the Egyptians he came upon a beautiful city on a hill. He inquired, and learned it was Jerusalem. It was at that time he sought to overtake Israel. First a Babylonian priest read the entrails of a pig for direction, and then Nebuchadnezzar went ahead and invaded the land.

I bet you knew that already. Bet one of your atheist web pages with Bible passages to throw in the face of believers, knew that too. What a joke.

You can not verify what you cut and paste, but you want to act like they are irrefutable. You do not even know enough Bible to know you have been refuted. You do not know the Bible very well, and you are trailing into areas that only scholars would be able to show someone through.

To explain anything to you falls to the ground, because when it comes to the Bible you have no power of comprehension. You have a veil over your mind. All you have are some atheists here waving pom poms for what you cut and paste, they also not knowing what the Bible teaches. Its all an act. Its not hard to detect.

 

[GenemZ]

By the way, Nebby never conquered Egypt. You need a better source than that.

When he was young and his father was still king he defeated the Egyptian armies in the field. But that was one battle and he never conquered Egypt.

You should be able to find a valid source if that claim is true.

Problem: Nebuchadnezzar didn't take Egypt

Some source that is!

Errancy.org

This website represents one man's look at a fairly random selection of alleged Biblical contradictions, errors, and other problems. Problems are classified as Weak, Minor, or Serious, according to how severe they are for the doctrine of inerrancy: that is, the view that the Bible contains no errors. Of course, these ratings are pretty subjective. You might want to read my thoughts on how Christians should respond to these problems. I don't argue that Biblical errors are fatal for Christianity, merely a certain fundamentalist brand of it (but full disclosure: I am not currently a Christian).

​

You're only cutting and pasting his ideas. You have no way to verify what he says is accurate, nor what I say. You're just playing a game with his words.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You are cutting and pasting another person's work, who you assume he knows what he is talking about. He makes declarations, then offers no proof. Who are you kidding? You are just running with what you read and take the assumed position that if you act like it can not be wrong, that you will win. You have a lot to learn.. That stuff is effective with young Christians who are first starting to grow. I am not going to jump through your hoops because you can not verify what you are cutting and pasting is true! I showed you some things by people who know their history and Bible, and you shout that they do not know what they are talking about. You do not know your Bible. Go pick on someone who is a baby and knows only a little if you want that stuff to work.

No, all I have done so far is to refer you to someone else's work. And he does know what he is talking about. No creationist has been able to show a flaw in his work yet. He used real sources when he did his work.

And I offered to discuss the verses that you did not read. What did you do? You went straight to fools that made claims that were easily debunked. Did you forget that you called a causeway a damn.

It looks like you are running away again, you won't even discuss the verses that you did not read, much less understand.

Here is an example of your presumptuous thinking.



He may have heard of Israel. But while he was on the way to battle with the Egyptians he came upon a beautiful city on a hill. He inquired, and learned it was Jerusalem. It was at that time he sought to overtake Israel. First a Babylonian priest read the entrails of a pig for direction, and then Nebuchadnezzar went ahead and invaded the land.

Yes, Nebby had heard of Israel. He had conquered it long before the prophecy. In fact he took a man captive from there. You may have heard of him. His name was Ezekiel:

Ezekiel Timeline

Ezekiel was Nebby's prisoner when he made his prophecy. That was a Christian site that I linked for you. The only thing they got wrong was when the prophecy was "fulfilled" That never happened. Perhaps you should read your Bible and bit more and quit making incorrect assumption about others.

I bet you knew that already. Bet one of your atheist web pages with Bible passages to throw in the face of believers, knew that too. What a joke.

You can not verify what you cut and paste, but you want to act like they are irrefutable. You do not even know enough Bible to know you have been refuted. You do not know the Bible very well, and you are trailing into areas that only scholars would be able to show someone through.

To explain anything to you falls to the ground, because when it comes to the Bible you have no power of comprehension. You have a veil over your mind. All you have are some atheists here waving pom poms for what you cut and paste, they also not knowing what the Bible teaches. Its all an act. Its not hard to detect.

Atheist pages are usually the most accurate when it comes to the Bible. They do not have false assumptions that the Bible is correct. When it is wrong they are not afraid to show it.

And please, you are the veiled one. So far you said that an island at sea level was "flooded". The only way to flood Tyre would be to flood the whole Mediterranean. You seemed to think that the trip to attack Tyre was Nebby's first. You believed that Nebby defeated Egypt when all historical sources say that never happened.

And you run away from the very verses of the prophesy.