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Subduction Zone

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So explain how that website relates to any of Alfvens work?

We have already gone over this. Alfven's work could be used to make predictions by people who can do the math. It does not matter if Alfven himself did not predict it. For example Einstein's led to the prediction of black holes, even though he did not like the idea himself. A work does not pass or fail only on the work of the writer of it but also by other who come after and see what the work predicts.
 
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Riberra

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For example Einstein's led to the prediction of black holes, even though he did not like the idea himself. A work does not pass or fail only on the work of the writer of it but also by other who come after and see what the work predicts.

Can you tell us the name of the scientist ? and how the theory leading to the postulated existence of black holes was derived from Einstein's Relativity?A little history records of the development of the "black holes" theory -using the original papers equations -would be appreciated.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Can you tell us the name of the scientist ? and how the theory leading to the postulated existence of black holes was derived from Einstein's Relativity?A little history records of the development of the "black holes" theory -using the original papers equations -would be appreciated.

This article gives a history of Black Holes. Though Schwarzchild first calculated what the radius would be he did not believe the existed:

A Brief History of Mind-Bending Ideas About Black Holes - Wired Science
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Can you tell us the name of the scientist ? and how the theory leading to the postulated existence of black holes was derived from Einstein's Relativity?A little history records of the development of the "black holes" theory -using the original papers equations -would be appreciated.

Einstein's theory does not predict nor support black holes.

http://www.ptep-online.com/index_files/2006/PP-05-10.PDF

Nor did he support them in the slightest.

http://www.cscamm.umd.edu/tiglio/GR2012/Syllabus_files/EinsteinSchwarzschild.pdf

Pure fabricated Fairie Dust.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Also Michael you have never been clear exactly what you believe and why. It is not a valid excuse to say "I don't believe that part of a theory". It is not like the Bible, in science you don't get to pick and choose which parts of a theory you like.

Why not? You do. You choose to believe that 99% of the universe is irrelevant.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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We could start with this thread that explains some of EU's short comings:

Neutrino Dreaming: The Electric Universe Theory Debunked

We already covered that and debunked that site, starting with your still missing neutrinos.

Comments on the Sudbury Neutrino Observatory Report

And then we showed your convection problem is 100 orders too small to support your theory.

Anomalously weak solar convection

Yet you decided to pick and choose and ignore both problems and pretend they do not exist.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7804894-2/#post65033060

And your attempt to appeal to authority to dismiss evidence is useless and a fallacy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

You do this because you have no evidence, just Fairie Dust theories.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Einstein's theory does not predict nor support black holes.

http://www.ptep-online.com/index_files/2006/PP-05-10.PDF

Nor did he support them in the slightest.

http://www.cscamm.umd.edu/tiglio/GR2012/Syllabus_files/EinsteinSchwarzschild.pdf

Pure fabricated Fairie Dust.

You cannot use a failure, a grad school dropout, to defend your belief. That fact is that even though neither Schwarzchild nor Einstein believe in their existence the work of the two predicted them. And I already pointed out that neither believed in them. Once again you made my point for me. It does not matter whether or not the writer of a theory agrees with what his theory predicts. Sometimes the theory is greater than the author.

Alven's work fails because of what it predicts when used on a large scale. He may not have done the work because he knew what it predicts is not what is observed. It does not matter of course, that is what his work predicts.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Why not? You do. You choose to believe that 99% of the universe is irrelevant.

No, I don't. That is a strawman argument and you should know it. I don't believe that plasma has the magical ability to speed up the rotation of galaxies without leaving massive evidence behind. Once again you should never use the term "fairie dust" since plasma is your fairie dust.
 
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Subduction Zone

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We already covered that and debunked that site, starting with your still missing neutrinos.

Comments on the Sudbury Neutrino Observatory Report

And then we showed your convection problem is 100 orders too small to support your theory.

Anomalously weak solar convection

Yet you decided to pick and choose and ignore both problems and pretend they do not exist.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7804894-2/#post65033060

And your attempt to appeal to authority to dismiss evidence is useless and a fallacy.

Argument from authority - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You do this because you have no evidence, just Fairie Dust theories.

Nope, once again when it comes to science you always fail.


Your first site was written by nuts. It was not written by someone who understood physics. Your next link had nothing to do with the argument at hand. And your final Wiki link shows that you do not understand the argument from authority logical error.

Let's start with your final and worst error first. There are times it is valid to use an authority. You go to an astrophysicist when you want to discuss the universe on a gross scale. That is perfectly legitimate. You do not go to an astrophysicist for automotive advice.

So if I used the argument Dr so and so is a PhD in Cosmology and he says the carburetor is acting up that would be an "Argument from authority". If I go to a astrophysicist for advice on why galaxies spin to fast that would not be an argument from authority.

Do you understand your error?
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Nope, once again when it comes to science you always fail.


Your first site was written by nuts. It was not written by someone who understood physics. Your next link had nothing to do with the argument at hand. And your final Wiki link shows that you do not understand the argument from authority logical error.

Let's start with your final and worst error first. There are times it is valid to use an authority. You go to an astrophysicist when you want to discuss the universe on a gross scale. That is perfectly legitimate. You do not go to an astrophysicist for automotive advice.

So if I used the argument Dr so and so is a PhD in Cosmology and he says the carburetor is acting up that would be an "Argument from authority". If I go to a astrophysicist for advice on why galaxies spin to fast that would not be an argument from authority.

Do you understand your error?


Your site was written by someone not even once published, just the typical hater.

Address the evidence.

Tell me, how do you know the number of neutrinos leaving the sun if you have never taken a measurement there? Are you ASSUMING you know the number and type? Are you neutrino dreaming?

QUESTION: Consider a freight train that goes from New York to Chicago. We live in Chicago and are only able to observe the train as it arrives in Chicago. It arrives with 4 freight cars, 2 tank cars, and 1 flat car. How is it possible, no matter how sophisticated our method of observation, for us to make any conclusions about whether freight cars, tank cars, or flat cars have been added to or subtracted from the train at, say, Cleveland? Moreover, how is it possible to say that freight cars have mysteriously turned into tank cars or flat cars along the route somewhere? (And do it with “99% confidence”?)

But you, you can assure me that by taking a measurement on one end of the transmission line from sun to earth, you can tell me what types left the sun.

APOD: 2001 July 10 - Sudbury Indicates Nonstandard Particle Model

" SNO appears to be measuring a rate expected for all types of neutrinos combined but a decided deficit for the electron neutrino. The results are being interpreted as bolstering previous evidence that different types of neutrinos are changing into each other."

So, you measure a distinct lack of electron neutrinos, and somehow interpret that to mean they change flavors en-route.

Yet the later MiniBooNE experiment conclusively ruled out such flavor changes at 98% certainty, and was designed specifically to test for this, unlike the LSND and SNO tests.

Press Pass - Press Releases

"The MiniBooNE collaboration ruled out the simple LSND oscillation interpretation by looking for signs of muon neutrinos oscillating into electron neutrinos in the region indicated by the LSND observations. The collaboration found no appearance of electron neutrinos as predicted by a simple two-neutrino oscillation scenario."

But you once again ignore data to keep your Fairie Dust theory alive.

Do you understand your error?
 
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Subduction Zone

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Your site was written by someone not even once published, just the typical hater.

My site was written by an astronomer. What evidence do you have that she was never published. And "hater" is a code word that EU people use for "someone that can prove I am wrong". So thank you for admitting that you are wrong. If there was any evidence of some actual hate it would not be so obvious. Perhaps you guys should choose another code word.

Address the evidence.

Tell me, how do you know the number of neutrinos leaving the sun if you have never taken a measurement there? Are you ASSUMING you know the number and type? Are you neutrino dreaming?

No assumptions are being made. Reread the article, you did not understand it.

QUESTION: Consider a freight train that goes from New York to Chicago. We live in Chicago and are only able to observe the train as it arrives in Chicago. It arrives with 4 freight cars, 2 tank cars, and 1 flat car. How is it possible, no matter how sophisticated our method of observation, for us to make any conclusions about whether freight cars, tank cars, or flat cars have been added to or subtracted from the train at, say, Cleveland? Moreover, how is it possible to say that freight cars have mysteriously turned into tank cars or flat cars along the route somewhere? (And do it with “99% confidence”?)

This is a typical failed analogy on your part. It has been shown that neutrinos can change form. You need to have an analogy where "cars" changes form. Where a new source of "cars" would be obvious. Oh wait, if you did that there would be no point in your failed analogy.

But you, you can assure me that by taking a measurement on one end of the transmission line from sun to earth, you can tell me what types left the sun.

Me? No. An astrophysicist, probably yes.



So do you have anything besides "fail" on your part today?
 
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Justatruthseeker

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My site was written by an astronomer. What evidence do you have that she was never published. And "hater" is a code word that EU people use for "someone that can prove I am wrong". So thank you for admitting that you are wrong. If there was any evidence of some actual hate it would not be so obvious. Perhaps you guys should choose another code word.

Well that's easy, show me a published paper.



No assumptions are being made. Reread the article, you did not understand it.
Every claim made is an assumption, since the MiniBooNE experiment ruled out with 98% certainty any changing of muon into electron neutrinos. Which actually hurt your case if they did change flavors, as it is the electron neutrinos in short supply, and those are required by your theory, not the other ones. I don't think you understand your own theory of a nuclear core. The short supply of electron neutrinos doesn't affect EU theory at all, just yours.



This is a typical failed analogy on your part. It has been shown that neutrinos can change form. You need to have an analogy where "cars" changes form. Where a new source of "cars" would be obvious. Oh wait, if you did that there would be no point in your failed analogy.
Assuming cars change form, how can you tell when and where they changed, if you do NOT know what quantity they started out as? Show me one measurement of neutrinos as they exited the sun???????????????

You can't, all you can do is show me that electron neutrinos are in short supply, and that muon may transform into electron, damaging your case even further. So if flat cars change to box cars, and box cars are in short supply already, how does this help your case?

Sorry, but once again the MinnieBooNE results ruled out with 98% certainty the fact that muon change to electron. But you ignore that experiment in favor of experiments that detected anomalies, experiments that unlike the MinnieBooNE were not designed specifically to test for this.

What you mean to say is that you want in your fantasies for this to be the case. And even IF muon change to electron, this hurts your case even further, as it is the electron neutrinos that are required by your theory, and they are the ones already in short supply. Which means if we take your assumption as true, that muon change into electron neutrinos, then your electron neutrinos MUST be even in shorter supply when emitted from the sun. Your argument of changing neutrinos only damages your case, not helps it.

Exotic Particle Caught After It Changes Flavor | LiveScience

"Of the many billions of neutrinos that were sent from the Super Proton Synchrotron, 5,000 interacted with the OPERA detector, 1,000 were studied in detail, and only one has a 98-percent chance of being a real tau neutrino."

So after three years of a continuous neutron beam, you have one muon particle that might have changed into a tau. yet you want me to believe that this happens on a regular basis from the sun to the earth to electron neutrinos. In the 8 minutes it takes, not 3 years. Talk about "FAITH" in the supernatural!!!!!!

A process NEVER observed. Electron neutrinos have NEVER been observed to change into anything in ANY experiment. Only in your Neutrino Dreams.
 
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Michael

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We have already gone over this. Alfven's work could be used to make predictions by people who can do the math.

True, and since Alfven could do math, indeed he made some predictions with it.

It does not matter if Alfven himself did not predict it. For example Einstein's led to the prediction of black holes, even though he did not like the idea himself.

Actually, both from from a historical, and a *physical*, as well as a mathematical perspective, you're dead wrong. That's probably your core problem in a nutshell. That's a tad akin to claiming it doesn't matter who used or abuses the statements of Martin Luther King, or Ghandi or Nelson Mandela to promote violence, the fact their words can be abused that way is a reflection on Dr King, or Ghandi, or Mandela. Sorry, I don't buy your claims on any level, not even a historical level. Einstein himself *rejected* the concept of infinitely dense objects, and the Pauli exclusion principle forbids it. You'll have to deal with those inconvenient facts, particularly from a historical perspective.

A work does not pass or fail only on the work of the writer of it but also by other who come after and see what the work predicts.

Well, your precious exotic matter predicted that electrons wouldn't be quite round, yet those last lab experiments falsified their predictions. That was just the third strike in fact, including the fact that SUSY theory failed it's own golden test and LHC. In fact all the "popular" mathematical models got blown out of the water, and we're *definitely* scraping the bottom of the barrel in terms of what was once 'popular'.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7806270-4/#post65072167

You know, I asked a question in a different thread that seem quite appropriate to me as it relates to this conversation.

You're treating your cosmology beliefs like a *religion*, leaving no room for an "doubt" on any of your various beliefs, including whether or not black holes achieve infinite density, and any 'missing mass' must *necessarily* be found in some form of exotic matter. You leave *zero* room for doubt, not even 1%. That's not 'science', that's "religion".

I don't even treat my beliefs in God that way. I'm open for instance to the possibility that God may not be the physical universe, and even the unlikely possibility that God does not exit at all. I'd admit the last one would probably rank .001 percent likely IMO, but I'm personally quite comfortable living with "doubt" on pretty much *all* topics. You don't seem to leave *any* room for honest scientific doubt, not even on issues related to pure science.
 
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Michael

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FYI, I've tried to explain this to you before, but I will try one more time to explain how *irrelevant* your neutrino link is as it relates to Alfven's work, or Birkeland's work.

Let me take you on a little stroll down EU/PC theory lane, and I'll explain to you how it got started, beginning with Birkeland.

Birkeland was curious about the cause of aurora. He believed they were 'caused' by the presence of a strong cathode source near the Earth. He furthermore created a series of experiments to test that idea out in lab. He found that bombarding the sphere with a cathode ray, he could create aurora around the poles of his sphere, and indeed they functioned and looked a lot like aurora in the Earth's atmosphere. He and his team also risked their lives taking in-situ measurements of the magnetic fields around the poles during solar storms that would produce aurora to make very detailed calculations and compare them to their lab results. His published volume is *filled* with mathematical presentations related to moving charged particles and what is essentially the start of plasma physics as it applies to events in space.

Birkeland's work basically was ignored by the mainstream for over 6 decades, but not by Alfven. Alfven realized the importance of his work as it related to electrical process in the Earth's magnetosphere. It took *satellites in space* to confirm that Chapman's ideas, mathematically elegant as they sounded, simply weren't correct in terms of explaining nature. Nature is *current flow* oriented. Chapman ignored that issue, Birkeland didn't. The mainstream *still* ignores the current flow aspect as often as they can. :(

Birkeland *assumed* that the cathode bombarding the Earth was the sun. He also experimented with that concept, and with it he and his team produced a whole series of now verified predictions related to solar physics. These include, but are not limited to the presence of *both* types of high speed charged particles in solar wind, polar jets, cathode rays from the sun, electrical discharges in the solar atmosphere, coronal loops, etc.

Birkeland personally *assumed* that the sun was it's own power source. He and his team preceded the complete understanding of fission and fusion, but Birkeland called it a 'transmutation of elements'. He listed fissionable materials by name, but he left open the option of fusion as well. Either way, what he assumed was an *internal* solar power source.

By the time Alfven came along, the 'standard solar model' has become well entrenched in solar physics circles. Once fusion was discovered, it became all the rage in solar physics. Alfven *embraced the standard solar model* with respect to *all of his published work*. Alfven's model wasn't necessarily a cathode with respect to space as Birkeland predicted, rather it more or less an electrical generator that was "wired together" with other suns. It too however generated all it's basic power *locally* and simply 'shared' with the whole system.

In both Birkeland's model, and Alfven's "electric sun" model, all the energy was created/released *locally* within the sun or within the solar atmosphere. By definition, both of their models would *necessarily* need to emit *exactly the same number of neutrinos* as the standard solar model. Alfven's model in particular is tied to the mainstream model. There's not even a little wiggle room in his model for those numbers not to match in terms of his published works.

"Once upon a time" in the world of neutrinos, there was a "missing neutrino" problem. When they measured the electron neutrinos coming from the sun, they didn't match the standard model. This created a "problem" within the EU/PC community since neither Birkeland's model, nor Alfven's model predicted these lower neutrino counts.

This "problem" was dealt with by Juergen's. He "theorized" that the sun might not be generating all it's energy locally as Alfven assumed. Rather he promoted the idea that suns acted more like "resistors" inside of a very sophisticated set of circuitry that ran through the galaxy. His model allowed for the sun to release the same amount of heat and light, but without having to generate all the energy locally. Since there was a "neutrino problem" at that time, Juergen's model did gain in popularity within the EU/PC community for a time.

As you might surmise, that preference for Juegen's model began to wane within the EU/PC community once evidence began to emerge that there were other types of neutrinos coming from the sun, and there was some evidence of neutrino oscillation. Their may in fact be some folks that still like Juergen's model, but I've personally always preferred Birkeland's solar model, Alfven's solar model, and Juergen's solar model in that order. I don't have to have 100 finality like you do, so I still try to keep an open mind to other solar models.

In short, that neutrino page has *absolutely nothing* to do with Alfven's published and peer reviewed work. If you wish to falsify *Alfven's* published works, you won't be able to do so based on neutrino measurements unless you intend to falsify the standard solar model using neutrino counts in some way.
 
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Michael

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This article gives a history of Black Holes. Though Schwarzchild first calculated what the radius would be he did not believe the existed:

You are correct, but therein lies the rub. Schwarzchild's "solution" wasn't the same as Hilbert's.

You seem to be strongly emotionally attached to the notion of infinite density. Why? The concept completely defies everything we know about particle physics, and specifically violates the Pauli-exclusion principle.

Like Einstein, I personally entertain the concept of *very dense*, but not infinitely dense objects. I personally prefer a neutron core solution to that problem, but there are other equally viable options on the table, including ideas related to QM. None of them *require* a zero radius solution.

[1401.6562] Planck stars

Why are you so emotionally attached to a zero radius solution in the first place, and please tell me it's not because of some random guy from some random website that stayed at a holiday inn express last night?
 
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Michael

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It's also worth pointing out the blatant double standard in play here. The mainstream model makes mathematical predictions alright, all of which got shot down in the labs of LHC, LUX and in those electron roundness experiments. Nothing once "popular" was even left standing!

Likewise SDO has demonstrated that the mainstream solar model is inaccurate as it relates to the speed of convection, pretty much *destroying* it's power source to explain all that atmospheric activity. They were *counting on* strong magnetic fields produced by strong convection. It's only 1 percent of their predicted value! That's off by two whole orders of magnitude.

Weak solar convection – approximately 100 times slower than scientists had previously projected | Watts Up With That?

I don't see you tossing out exotic matter theory when your maths got blown out the water. I don't see you tossing out Lambda-CDM because the mainstream solar model blew the convection numbers either.

Why *on Earth* are you trying to toss out a whole cosmology theory, and a whole body of published work produced by a Nobel Prize winning physicist based on a couple of calculations that have *absolutely nothing* to do with his work? :confused:
 
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Subduction Zone

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You are correct, but therein lies the rub. Schwarzchild's "solution" wasn't the same as Hilbert's.

You seem to be strongly emotionally attached to the notion of infinite density. Why? The concept completely defies everything we know about particle physics, and specifically violates the Pauli-exclusion principle.

Like Einstein, I personally entertain the concept of *very dense*, but not infinitely dense objects. I personally prefer a neutron core solution to that problem, but there are other equally viable options on the table, including ideas related to QM. None of them *require* a zero radius solution.

[1401.6562] Planck stars

Why are you so emotionally attached to a zero radius solution in the first place, and please tell me it's not because of some random guy from some random website that stayed at a holiday inn express last night?


I am not necessarily tied to the idea of infinite density. The fact is that black holes would exist with or without the central singularity. The more massive a black hole is the lower its density is, and also the lower its "surface" gravity is.

We don't know enough about matter yet. Many physical "laws" have been show to be broken in different situations. That is when new theories have to be developed.
 
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