Is sin the reason for one's damnation or not?

[FreeGrace2]

I did back up my position with scripture. Eph 2:1-5.

Except none of these verses back up what you say.

 

[janxharris]

We know from Heb 11:6 that without faith it is impossible to please God. What is the opposite of pleasing God? Displeasing God, of course, which is called "wrath" in the Bible. Jn 3:36 tells us what happens to those who don't believe.

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey(apeitho-disbeieves) the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

That's why people are in hell. By rejecting the free gift, they incur God's wrath for not believing the gospel.

This is an extremely simple and straightforward concept.

They also die in their sins.

I'm not saying I have all the answers, but if Jesus' dying for all sins did not actually procure forgiveness of them then it would seem that his death did not achieve that which the writer of Hebrews said it did:

Heb 9:28
so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Did Christ take away the sins of many but leave them unforgiven?

 

[FreeGrace2]

There is no one verse. My theology isn't shallow like yours.

Insults are pitiful.

And what six questions?

These:
Matt 9:12
On hearing this, Jesus said, it is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. Are just the elect “sick”?

Luke 19:10
For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost. Are just the elect “lost”?

Luke 4:18
The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. Are just the elect poor?

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ died for sins once FOR ALL, the righteous (Christ) for the unrighteous (humanity, all of them), to bring you to God. Are just the elect unrighteous?

Rom 5:6
You see, just at the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Are just the elect ungodly?

Mark 2:17
On hearing this, Jesus said to them, it is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners. Are just the elect sinners?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I am discussing what Jesus taught , don't duck , all the council of God is up for study , not selective evidence to "prove a point "

Interesting. When I quote from the whole council of God, I'm accused of quoting verses out of context.

 

[cygnusx1]

Interesting. When I quote from the whole council of God, I'm accused of quoting verses out of context.

That is because you do !

 

[FreeGrace2]

They also die in their sins.

I'm not saying I have all the answers, but if Jesus' dying for all sins did not actually procure forgiveness of them then it would seem that his death did not achieve that which the writer of Hebrews said it did:

Heb 9:28
so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Did Christ take away the sins of many but leave them unforgiven?

The phrase "take away" isn't literal. It means paying the penalty. The sins are still here, which is why we have 1 Jn 1:9, for example.

Sins are forgiven by faith, per Acts 10:43. Being forgiven and having the debt removed are 2 separate things.

If Christ's death forgave sins, all would go to heaven. But all do not go to heaven. Some die in their (unforgiven) sins.

Recall Paul's words to the Ephesians: you were born in transgression and sin. And he was telling that to those who were saved (elect). Everyone is born in the same condition: sinners, lost, in need of the Savior. Which is why Christ died for all sin.

His death reconciled the world to God (2 Cor 5:19). When man believes, he is reconciled to God. 2 Cor 5:20

 

[janxharris]

Yes, we know that faith is the means that God uses to justify. We are justified by faith. There are no verses that say we are made regenerate by faith.

Well, there's Eph 2:5.

John 1:12-13
Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Of course, we should note that if God had not predestined that believers would be born again, then no amount of faith in Christ would have procured anything, let alone such as John describes. Verse 13 makes this point and does not abnigate the requirement of faith.

1. God predestined that believers would be born again.
2. A man has faith.
3. He is born again.

Remove point 1 and point 3 will not occur, and so, therefore, it is in this sense that they are born, 'not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.'

 

[janxharris]

I am discussing what Jesus taught , don't duck , all the council of God is up for study , not selective evidence to "prove a point "

There are no goats mentioned in John 10.

What is the main context of that chapter?

 

[Hammster]

Insults are pitiful.

It's not an insult. It's a fact. Your whole theology is just a collection is single verses. That's shallow.

These:
Matt 9:12
On hearing this, Jesus said, it is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. Are just the elect “sick”?

No. But they will recognize it and seek out the Doctor.

Luke 19:10
For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost. Are just the elect “lost”?

It must be. Why? Because He didn't say that He can to seek and try to save the lost. That's what your theology teaches, that He only tries to save. I think the Shepherd is much better than that.

Luke 4:18
The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. Are just the elect poor?

No.

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ died for sins once FOR ALL, the righteous (Christ) for the unrighteous (humanity, all of them), to bring you to God. Are just the elect unrighteous?

No. But I notice that you had to add words. Shame.

Rom 5:6
You see, just at the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Are just the elect ungodly?

If course not.

Mark 2:17
On hearing this, Jesus said to them, it is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners. Are just the elect sinners?

No, but it's obvious (or should be) that Jesus has the self-righteous in mind, the ones who don't think they need a Savior.

Thanks for making my point about your theology just being a collection of single verses.

 

[Hammster]

Except none of these verses back up what you say.

I can understand why you'd think so.

 

[Hammster]

It doesn't say that God regenerates before people believe.

True. But it does say He regenerates people. And belief comes three verses later.

So where are the verses that say regeneration comes by faith?

 

[nobdysfool]

It's not an insult. It's a fact. Your whole theology is just a collection is single verses. That's shallow.
No. But they will recognize it and seek out the Doctor.
It must be. Why? Because He didn't say that He can to seek and try to save the lost. That's what your theology teaches, that He only tries to save. I think the Shepherd is much better than that.
No.
No. But I notice that you had to add words. Shame.
If course not.


No, but it's obvious (or should be) that Jesus has the self-righteous in mind, the ones who don't think they need a Savior.

Thanks for making my point about your theology just being a collection of single verses.

Well said, and spot on!

 

[Hammster]

John 1:12-13
Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Of course, we should note that if God had not predestined that believers would be born again, then no amount of faith in Christ would have procured anything, let alone such as John describes. Verse 13 makes this point and does not abnigate the requirement of faith.

1. God predestined that believers would be born again.
2. A man has faith.
3. He is born again.

Remove point 1 and point 3 will not occur, and so, therefore, it is in this sense that they are born, 'not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.'

Becoming a child of God means to be adopted into His family. It doesn't mean to be born again.

 

[nobdysfool]

Sure. 2:5 equates being made alive with being saved. And v.8 adds "through faith". So "being made alive" is through faith.

So, when said that way, let me ask you this: whose faith? If you say the man's faith, then you are saying that the man makes himself alive. If you say God's faith, then it is God who makes the man alive. Everything God does is by faith. Jesus proved that.

Bottom line is, it is GOD who makes them alive. All by Himself. I am not saying that God believes for the man, but in the order of how things are stated, being made alive comes first. Dead men do not believe. Dead men don't do anything. Therefore Regeneration MUST precede faith in order for the man to be able to believe. That is a FACT.

Again, there are no supporting verses for the idea that God regenerates before people believe. There just aren't.

Stamp your foot and insist all you want, I've just shown you that this passage teaches that very thing. You don't like it because it isn't stated in so many words, and also because you don't like the idea that man is not in control in any fashion in the process of Salvation. When God decides you will be saved, you WILL be saved, and He does not need your permission to do so. And yes, He saves men against their will, because their will is no impediment to God having His way with them.

Deal with it!

 

[NannaNae]

so why is satan going to go to hell?

they will all go to hell for the same reason..

what kind of hell that is none really none of my business..

I hope I don't even have to be there.
I plan on staying like a kid in a toy store full of wonders..
and thus stay on his fluffy side.


I think they will go to hell because of rebellion/lawlessness on every level.


so what I think are the stones that get them "punishement " as a verdict .




refusing to repent.
refusing to submit to his life.
they demand the right to sin without consequences.
and the demand to be forgiven.
of just all out refusing to acknowledge or be thankful for what they do have .

for doing every kind of harm that could be invented in the minds of men.

no one has the right to demand forgiveness.
you ask for it every day humbly or you don't get it.


Our father which art in heaven give us this day our daily bread ( spirit , food) why kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses like we have already forgiven those who have trespassed against us.
lead us not to temptation . but deliver us from Evil.
for thine is the kingdom and power forever Amen.!

and mean it as much as you can and mean it more tomorrow and even more every day after.

on the opposite end it says Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness.. was he perfect no .. he was perfect in his relationship to God.

thus righteous as in right standing not as in perfection..




selfish vanity

 

[janxharris]

Becoming a child of God means to be adopted into His family. It doesn't mean to be born again.

Born of God means to be born again.

1 John 3:9
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

1 John 4:7
Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

1 John 5:1
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.

What evidence do you have that John 1:13 is not a reference to regeneration?

Further proof that belief comes first:

Ephesians 1:13-14
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

 

[janxharris]

Becoming a child of God means to be adopted into His family. It doesn't mean to be born again.

This from monergism.com:

In some of the elements of the application of redemption that we discuss in subsequent chapters, we play an active part (this is true, for example, of conversion, sanctification and perseverance). But in the work of regeneration we play no active role at all. It is instead totally a work of God. We see this, for example, when John talks about those to whom Christ gave power to become children of God—they “were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God” (John 1:13). Here John specifies that children of God are those who are “born...of God” and our human will (“the will of man&#8221 does not bring about this kind of birth.

Regeneration - What does it mean to be born again? by Wayne A. Grudem

Are they wrong in saying that John 1:13 is referring to rebirth?

 

[FreeGrace2]

It's not an insult. It's a fact. Your whole theology is just a collection is single verses. That's shallow.

What is really shallow is having ZERO verses to back up what RT claims. I have verses that actually SAY what I claim. And mutltiple verses for each claim.

No. But they will recognize it and seek out the Doctor.

Of course, your opinion cannot be backed up with Scripture.

It must be. Why? Because He didn't say that He can to seek and try to save the lost. That's what your theology teaches, that He only tries to save. I think the Shepherd is much better than that.

OK, thanks for admitting (inadvertently) that the non-elect (those Christ didn't die for) aren't lost, and therefore don't need saving. That places your theology in the universalist camp. Wow.

No.

OK, Jesus said to preach the good news to even the non-elect poor. Which would be a total lie, given that He wouldn't die for them (RT view). So your view is that Jesus promoted lying to those He wouldn't die for. Wow.

No. But I notice that you had to add words. Shame.

Oh, you didn't like my clarification? Are you suggesting that "the unrighteous" refers ONLY to those for whom Christ died (not everyone, per RT)? The verse is clear: Christ died for sins of the unrighteous. RT claims that Christ died ONLY for the elect. So, this verse would suggest, per RT logic, that ONLY the elect were unrighteous. So, what does that make those for whom Christ didn't die? Righteous. What else could they be?

If course not.

Rom 5:6 - Christ died for the ungodly. And your agreement that the ungodly doesn't refer to ONLY or JUST the elect. Which proves that Christ died for everyone, because everyone is ungodly.

No, but it's obvious (or should be) that Jesus has the self-righteous in mind, the ones who don't think they need a Savior.

the verse doesn't say that. Mark 2:17 says that He came to call sinners. Nothing about ONLY certain sinners. Proving once again that He died for all as all are sinners. Rom 3:9,23.

Thanks for making my point about your theology just being a collection of single verses.

Actually, thanks for making all my points that RT either leads to universalism, or that Christ died for everyone; depending on which question you have answered.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
Except none of these verses back up what you say.
and your response:

I can understand why you'd think so.

Since you understand that none of those verses back up what you say, why do you say what you say?

 

[FreeGrace2]

True. But it does say He regenerates people. And belief comes three verses later.

So what? Paul equated "being made alive" with "being saved" in 2:5. And 2:8 shows that salvation follows faith.

So where are the verses that say regeneration comes by faith?

Compare 2:5 and 2:8 and do the math. Real simple.