How Creationism hurts Christian Colleges

[SkyWriting]

Posted by Strathos
Posted by SkyWriting
I have in several variations. During the discussion on the 2002 SBC survey, it was proposed by, as memory serves, a Baptist minister that the solution was to keep young Baptists away from secular universities. At the time, I remember thinking that was the battle we were fighting.
Why else do we have so many religious based schools and colleges that stress not teaching evolution? I have seen and heard many comments from parents wanting to keep their children away from exposure to evolution and similar science often with the stated reason being that they were afraid that their children would lose their faith and leave the church.
I have no doubt that many of these parents would prefer that their kids do not go to college rather than be exposed to a secular education. I do not judge them negatively on this as they are following their faith but have great concerns about some variations of this mindset when deliberate dishonesty is involved.
Just thoughts,
Dizredux

So what do you plan to do about the problem?
Whiners don't change the world.

 

[HitchSlap]

MOST people don't understand marketing.
Displaying faults helps conversion rates.

I understand marketing. What would you like to know?

 

[Dizredux]

So what do you plan to do about the problem?
Whiners don't change the world.

Feeling unpleasant are we?

Dizredux

 

[bhsmte]

MOST people don't understand marketing.
Displaying faults helps conversion rates.

You know what they say, the cover up always causes more damage than the original lie. It may take time, but it always bites you in the end.

 

[HitchSlap]

You know what they say, the cover up always causes more damage than the original lie. It may take time, but it always bites you in the end.

Just ask the DI about the "Wedge Document" and cdesign proponentsists.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

Sounds more like colleges hurt creationism

Not as much as you might think. Although belief in creationism does decrease with education, it does not decrease as much as would be expected - 25% of postgraduated in the USA still believe in some form of creationism:

(source: 46% hold Creationist view of human origins - June 2012)​

A more damning report, also from Gallup, shows that church attendance is far more influencial than educational level when it comes to belief in creationism:

(source: American Beliefs: Evolution vs. Bible's Explanation of Human Origins)​

That study is quite old however - March 2006 - so things may have changed since then.

 

[juvenissun]

I would expect such an article to provide some research into the
situation. Because it has none, then the article is not attempting
to actually measure the extent of the problem.

Without an attempt at providing facts, it's just another sermon.

This is a simple misleading.

If 10% Christian students failed to appreciate creationism in a Christian university, then there will be 50% or higher Christian students walked away from creationism in a secular university.

Young people tends to doubt creationism due to ignorance (not due to understanding). Many such cases bound to happen anyway. In comparison, a young person would have a much better chance to successfully fight evolutionism when studied in a Christian university.

 

[juvenissun]

Feeling unpleasant are we?

Dizredux

Not me.

I was an 100% non-Christian before college. I attended a secular university and start to doubt evolution after I learned what it is. I doubt evolution more and more in graduate study. Finally, after graduate school, I abandoned evolution. I abandoned it due to a better understanding.

Many young people in college ARE walking the same road as I walked.

People strayed away from naive faith after learn a little bit evolution? tooooo common. Nothing to worry about.

For a Christian university, the faith of their science teachers is the number 1 important factor to save their students.

 

[HitchSlap]

Not me.

I was an 100% non-Christian before college. I attended a secular university and start to doubt evolution after I learned what it is. I doubt evolution more and more in graduate study. Finally, after graduate school, I abandoned evolution. I abandoned it due to a better understanding.

Many young people in college ARE walking the same road as I walked.

People strayed away from naive faith after learn a little bit evolution? tooooo common. Nothing to worry about.

For a Christian university, the faith of their science teachers is the number 1 important factor to save their students.

You walked away from evolution because of religion or because of the facts.

 

[Dizredux]

Not me. The comment wasn't aimed at you so no problem.

I was an 100% non-Christian before college. I attended a secular university and start to doubt evolution after I learned what it is. I doubt evolution more and more in graduate study. Finally, after graduate school, I abandoned evolution. I abandoned it due to a better understanding.

You don't have to answer but I am just curious, what type of graduate program were you taking? The reason I ask is that you seem to be saying that your graduate studies resulted in your abandoning evolution so I think it might be relevant.

Many young people in college ARE walking the same road as I walked.

People strayed away from naive faith after learn a little bit evolution? tooooo common. Nothing to worry about.

OK we seem to have a completely different outlook. I feel that large numbers of young people leaving the church and indeed Christianity itself is a major problem. Apparently a number of people agree with that as I have seen it brought up as a major concern by many religious figures. Barna did a major survey on this and found found that almost 60 percent of Christian young people ages 15 to 29 have distanced themselves from active involvement in church. This follows along with the SBC statistics of 2002. You may not believe this to be a serious problem for Christianity but I do and so do the people in the Barna Group and well as the Southern Baptists.

For a Christian university, the faith of their science teachers is the number 1 important factor to save their students.

I believe in any university setting the most important things are the knowledge of the teacher and the ability teach teach accurate information in science class and to train the students how to evaluate and use this information regardless of faith. If the science teacher does not know the material, at least to me, he or she provides no real service and no educational value. We have a right to expect a university level professor to be well informed on the subject being taught. Otherwise, by your values as stated the university might be better to get a very devout minister with little knowledge of the subject to teach.

We clearly differ on this. Outside a science class I have no problem with a religious college teaching their faith, that is usually why the students are there. In science class, I think science should be taught just as I think good writing skills should be taught in English classes or math in math classes. Faith has little to do with these subjects.

We simply do not see this issue the same way and that is your right but I see it very differently and will continue to approach the issue as a major problem for Christianity.

Dizredux

 

[KWCrazy]

"The tragedy of young-earth creationism is that it takes a relatively recent and extreme view of Genesis...

Blatant lie.
I'm sure God told Adam how he was created, which makes YEC as old as the first human. Certainly Noah's family believed in the flood, and they lived over 4,500 years ago.
The accusation of YEC being a recent concept is a lie, and those who state such are liars.
When the King James Bible was completed in 1611 it was presumed to be true as well.
False theories of millions of years of evolution is the recent theory, not YEC.

The only extreme view of Genesis is to call it mythology and lies. Obviously the early Christians believed it was true, since the first three chapters alone are referenced over 200 times in the New testament. Jesus taught that the Scriptures were accurate and suitable for instruction; that no jot or tittle would pass away until He returned. Since He spoke of Noah, Caine and Jonah by name, obviously He considered them real people.

 

[Seipai]

Blatant lie.
I'm sure God told Adam how he was created, which makes YEC as old as the first human. Certainly Noah's family believed in the flood, and they lived over 4,500 years ago.
The accusation of YEC being a recent concept is a lie, and those who state such are liars.
When the King James Bible was completed in 1611 it was presumed to be true as well.
False theories of millions of years of evolution is the recent theory, not YEC.

The only extreme view of Genesis is to call it mythology and lies. Obviously the early Christians believed it was true, since the first three chapters alone are referenced over 200 times in the New testament. Jesus taught that the Scriptures were accurate and suitable for instruction; that no jot or tittle would pass away until He returned. Since He spoke of Noah, Caine and Jonah by name, obviously He considered them real people.

You mean extremely strong scientific evidence that the World is billions of years old is over a 200 year old well accepted theory. And a theory is the pinnacle of scientific achievement.

Christian scholars did not seem to take the Adam and Eve or even Noah's Ark myths too seriously until after the theory of evolution was developed.

 

[KWCrazy]

You mean extremely strong scientific evidence that the World is billions of years old

Depending on your world view. Personally, I HAVE seen supernatural beings and I have NEVER seen increasing complexity. BTW, irradiated fruit flies are still fruit flies thousand of generations later.

And a theory is the pinnacle of scientific achievement.

Not even close. A theory is a working model that gets constantly modified as new information become available. The pinnacle of scientific achievement is getting a Nobel Prize.

Christian scholars did not seem to take the Adam and Eve or even Noah's Ark myths too seriously until after the theory of evolution was developed.

Another deliberately false statement. Care to offer evidence? While I don't know many 14th century Christian scholars, I haven't read any specific accusations that Adam and Eve or Noah were fictitious. But why stop there? Why not say water can't be turned into wine, people can't walk on water, people can't raise the dead or return to life and no prayer can ever heal the sick? If you're going to deny the Scriptures, why pick and choose which portions to deny? There are 333 miracles listed in the Scriptures. Believe them all or deny them all. Have confidence in you world view.

 

[Seipai]

Depending on your world view. Personally, I HAVE seen supernatural beings and I have NEVER seen increasing complexity. BTW, irradiated fruit flies are still fruit flies thousand of generations later.

No, the age of the Earth has nothing to do with your world view. All of the evidence supports only an old Earth. There is no significant data that supports a young Earth at all.N

Not even close. A theory is a working model that gets constantly modified as new information become available. The pinnacle of scientific achievement is getting a Nobel Prize.

Why is that not close? And you are wrong, the pinnacle of scientific achievement is still a well accepted theory. You may get a Nobel Prize for crafting a well accepted theory, but that is just a reward, often with politics attached.

Another deliberately false statement. Care to offer evidence? While I don't know many 14th century Christian scholars, I haven't read any specific accusations that Adam and Eve or Noah were fictitious. But why stop there? Why not say water can't be turned into wine, people can't walk on water, people can't raise the dead or return to life and no prayer can ever heal the sick? If you're going to deny the Scriptures, why pick and choose which portions to deny? There are 333 miracles listed in the Scriptures. Believe them all or deny them all. Have confidence in you world view.

[/quote]

I could, and I may. Also if the central message of the Bible is true no miracles are needed. That is just hype for the yokels at best.

 

[sfs]

Blatant lie.
I'm sure God told Adam how he was created, which makes YEC as old as the first human. Certainly Noah's family believed in the flood, and they lived over 4,500 years ago.
The accusation of YEC being a recent concept is a lie, and those who state such are liars.

So, because someone doesn't believe your made-up "facts", he's telling blatant lies? I'd love to see you try that line in court should you be sued, say, for defamation.

 

[PsychoSarah]

So, because someone doesn't believe your made-up "facts", he's telling blatant lies? I'd love to see you try that line in court should you be sued, say, for defamation.

Haven't there been creationist "scientists" that have been jailed for using fraudulent information to support religion and make a profit with it?

 

[juvenissun]

You walked away from evolution because of religion or because of the facts.

When I walked away from evolution, I did not have much faith yet. I was skeptical on creationism as well. I discard evolution entirely because the theory is too imaginative on its conclusion, even the scientific part is OK.

A simple example: We found a bone of 1.5 inches long and another 2 inches long, then we concluded that a similar bone of 1.7 inches long must exist. I simply can not accept this kind of science.

 

[juvenissun]

You don't have to answer but I am just curious, what type of graduate program were you taking? The reason I ask is that you seem to be saying that your graduate studies resulted in your abandoning evolution so I think it might be relevant.

OK we seem to have a completely different outlook. I feel that large numbers of young people leaving the church and indeed Christianity itself is a major problem. Apparently a number of people agree with that as I have seen it brought up as a major concern by many religious figures. Barna did a major survey on this and found found that almost 60 percent of Christian young people ages 15 to 29 have distanced themselves from active involvement in church. This follows along with the SBC statistics of 2002. You may not believe this to be a serious problem for Christianity but I do and so do the people in the Barna Group and well as the Southern Baptists.

I believe in any university setting the most important things are the knowledge of the teacher and the ability teach teach accurate information in science class and to train the students how to evaluate and use this information regardless of faith. If the science teacher does not know the material, at least to me, he or she provides no real service and no educational value. We have a right to expect a university level professor to be well informed on the subject being taught. Otherwise, by your values as stated the university might be better to get a very devout minister with little knowledge of the subject to teach.

We clearly differ on this. Outside a science class I have no problem with a religious college teaching their faith, that is usually why the students are there. In science class, I think science should be taught just as I think good writing skills should be taught in English classes or math in math classes. Faith has little to do with these subjects.

We simply do not see this issue the same way and that is your right but I see it very differently and will continue to approach the issue as a major problem for Christianity.

Dizredux

I study geology. I don't think I can reasonably reject evolution if I studied in other disciplines. I am a 200% science person.

I think if you study Christians in age group 30 to 40, a significant part of them might came back to church after a period of walking away during their 20 to 30. Undergraduate Christian students faced the first severe challenge in their life on faith, and is usually the most vulnerable. Many are lost. However, with the grace of God, some of them WILL come back at later time.

Many young atheists like to proudly say: I was brought up in a Christian family and I know what the Bible says. In fact, their faith died before it ever sprouted. They know nothing about Christianity.

 

[Dizredux]

I study geology. I don't think I can reasonably reject evolution if I studied in other disciplines. I am a 200% science person.

I have to ask this, are you Old Earth or Young Earth?

Dizredux

 

[KWCrazy]

So, because someone doesn't believe your made-up "facts", he's telling blatant lies? I'd love to see you try that line in court should you be sued, say, for defamation.

You'll note that I cited examples of specific people who believed int the Scriptures as written to validate that any claim of YEC being a new concept was a lie. Courts require evidence. For example, when you stand before the throne of God accused of calling His word a lie and of rejecting His offer of salvation, your words of rejection will be brought up as evidence of your guilt. No theory of science can keep you out of Hell. Only the sacrifice of Christ can do that.